Rumor: Mantha to EDM for RNH?

[kliq]

Seems to me, that RNH was better on those first years than Dylan Larkin. First 4 seasons, before McDavid arrived.

RNH maybe looks statistically bad, when he was forced to play some years first with Yakupov and then later with Lucic . Nobody shines with them on any stat. It's basicly playing PK all the time at 5-on-5.

But generally not surprised in here, that we are overrating our own player(s) and bashing down opposite team player, which could have been better.

It always seems to be one extreme or the other. Either our players are amazing, or they are compete garbage. My post was a joke in reference to something an old friend posted years ago.

 

[SCD]

The positive for Mantha is he has shown sustained productivity in a playoff type atmosphere. It will be interesting to see if he can sustain it against the hardest competition in the elimination rounds.

Whether it translate to next year, we can only hope.

 

[TCNorthstars]

Cracking 60+ points for the first time as a 26 year old is not something to get crazy about. At least not in terms of losing someone like Mantha.

Seems like a silly argument since RNH cracked 50 2x before his 24th bday. How many times has Mantha cracked 50?

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Seems like a silly argument since RNH cracked 50 2x before his 24th bday. How many times has Mantha cracked 50?

But but but he has POTENTIAL. Especially when he is "engaged". Aka doesn't play hard all the time.

 

[Bench]

Thank you lol. Still so confused by that.

Having a bit of fun. Obviously the position is more nuanced but I found it humorous the very first Yzerman rumor is being treated with trepidation and a Kenny like desire to keep the band together.

I understand the arguments for keeping Mantha. They have some meat to them, no doubt.

Of course I'm only 5% sure this rumor has any substance at all, so I find it an academic exercise. Then again, Kenny might value Mantha more than Yzerman does.

 

[SuperScript29]

Seems like a silly argument since RNH cracked 50 2x before his 24th bday. How many times has Mantha cracked 50?

The difference is Mantha has progressed every single season, while RNH has declined.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

The difference is Mantha has progressed every single season, while RNH has declined.

RNH just had his best season ever.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Having a bit of fun. Obviously the position is more nuanced but I found it humorous the very first Yzerman rumor is being treated with trepidation and a Kenny like desire to keep the band together.

I understand the arguments for keeping Mantha. They have some meat to them, no doubt.

Of course I'm only 5% sure this rumor has any substance at all, so I find it an academic exercise. Then again, Kenny might value Mantha more than Yzerman does.

Somewhat concerning for me would be Jimmy D has been the guy to run Mantha in the past. The Red Wings brass Stevie has seen the most of outside of this year is Jimmy D who lives in Tampa.

I don't full on believe this rumor either. But in terms of planning we should know what we are willing to extend these guys and where their camps are thinking. If you cannot bridge that gap or are completely unwilling to then moving them is an option on AA and Mantha. It has to be at this point, even if we like both guys.

 

[SuperScript29]

RNH just had his best season ever.

How many of his points involved McDavid and/or Draisaitl? I'm willing to bet at least half of them.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Seems like a silly argument since RNH cracked 50 2x before his 24th bday. How many times has Mantha cracked 50?

Seems like a silly argument since RNH played 457 games, the equivalent of over 5 and a half 82 game seasons by his 24 year old season.. Mantha has played 217, the equivalent of over 2 and a half 82 game seasons.

Also, RNH has been gifted ice time since the day he stepped into the league. Break down his statistics to P/60 and he's at 2.222. Only 2.167 if you look through age 24, which apparently matters for some reason. Mantha's P/60 is 2.220, which includes his first season of 10 games and 12 minutes a night (it jumps to 2.242 if you remove it).

I mean FFS, 14 of RNH's 41 assists were secondary assists that came on the powerplay this year. With an additional 11 secondary assists at even strength.

But just to level the playing field, let's dive deeper at even strength and primary scoring this year. Mantha 18 goals and 11 primary assists at even strength for 29 points. Nugent-Hopkins had 19 goals and 10 primary assists at even strength for 29 points. This is with Mantha averaging 15:28 ES TOI, and RNH averaging 15:10 minutes of ES TOI per game.

Mantha's even-strength P1/60: 1.68 (0.433 P1/GP) compared to RNH's P1/60: 1.40 (0.354 P1/GP). For reference, Larkin is around 1.964 P1/60 or 0.592 P1/GP, or McDavid at 2.744 and 0.859.

Sure looks like RNH is a passenger that goes as far as his team will carry him and relies heavily on the power play for his point production.

I don't want to hear a single argument about how RNH is supposedly a better offensive player. Every detailed offensive metric points to Mantha being a better offensive player. He's less reliant on his team, he drives possession more, he scores more at even strength and is less reliant on the powerplay, he records primary points at a higher rate. The only way RNH is able to "look pretty" sitting across from Mantha is if you look at the statistics as plainly as they are written on your screen.

So yeah, is RNH a better defensive player? He sure as hell better be.

 

[obey86]

Now I see where we disagree, and logically how we have different plans.

I think next season is Detroit's last shot at a top 5 pick, let alone top 3. The aggregate growth of the kids, plus any free agents or trades used, will sooner push the Wings out of the bottom 10 in 2020-21 than have them flirt with a top 3 pick (barring a gigantic surprise on lottery night).

I think it will be another 3-4 years after that for legit Cup contention, but there's only one (MAYBE two) seasons before they start climbing the standings.

Agreed.

Honestly, I think too many people here underestimate just how much the defense can improve just by getting rid of Kronwall, Ericsson, and Daley as every night players and replacing them with players who can actually skate and keep up in today's NHL.

If this team is still finishing bottom 5 in in the 20-21 season it probably means that an extremely large percentage of AA, Mantha, Hronek, Rasmussen, Cholowski, Zadina, Veleno, etc probably were busts or didn't improve enough from where they are now (in the case of Hronek, AA, Mantha). In that case, the rebuild probably would need to basically start over.

Long story short, IMO 2 seasons from now the Wings will either be relatively competitive for the playoffs and on the upswing, or be resetting the entire rebuild because their prospects/young players by and large were busts.

 

[Kingpin794]

Seems like a silly argument since RNH played 457 games, the equivalent of over 5 and a half 82 game seasons by his 24 year old season.. Mantha has played 217, the equivalent of over 2 and a half 82 game seasons.

Also, RNH has been gifted ice time since the day he stepped into the league. Break down his statistics to P/60 and he's at 2.222. Only 2.167 if you look through age 24, which apparently matters for some reason. Mantha's P/60 is 2.220, which includes his first season of 10 games and 12 minutes a night (it jumps to 2.242 if you remove it).

I mean FFS, 14 of RNH's 41 assists were secondary assists that came on the powerplay this year. With an additional 11 secondary assists at even strength.

But just to level the playing field, let's dive deeper at even strength and primary scoring this year. Mantha 18 goals and 11 primary assists at even strength for 29 points. Nugent-Hopkins had 19 goals and 10 primary assists at even strength for 29 points. This is with Mantha averaging 15:28 ES TOI, and RNH averaging 15:10 minutes of ES TOI per game.

Mantha's even-strength P1/60: 1.68 (0.433 P1/GP) compared to RNH's P1/60: 1.40 (0.354 P1/GP). For reference, Larkin is around 1.964 P1/60 or 0.592 P1/GP, or McDavid at 2.744 and 0.859.

Sure looks like RNH is a passenger that goes as far as his team will carry him and relies heavily on the power play for his point production.

I don't want to hear a single argument about how RNH is supposedly a better offensive player. Every detailed offensive metric points to Mantha being a better offensive player. He's less reliant on his team, he drives possession more, he scores more at even strength and is less reliant on the powerplay, he records primary points at a higher rate. The only way RNH is able to "look pretty" sitting across from Mantha is if you look at the statistics as plainly as they are written on your screen.

So yeah, is RNH a better defensive player? He sure as hell better be.

Thank you.

Context matters.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

How many of his points involved McDavid and/or Draisaitl? I'm willing to bet at least half of them.

Just eyeballing it, RNH seemed to play with McDavid most at the beginning of the year and the end of year, where he put up a little bit less than half of his production, the middle 2/4 the of the season, he put up w little more than half of his production without playing with McDavid or Draisatl as much.

 

[Ezekial]

Just eyeballing it, RNH seemed to play with McDavid most at the beginning of the year and the end of year, where he put up a little bit less than half of his production, the middle 2/4 the of the season, he put up w little more than half of his production without playing with McDavid or Draisatl as much.

Are you counting the 25 points he was on the power play with one or both of them?

RNH is a fantastic player but he definitely was on the ice with one of those guys for at least half of his production last year

 

[SuperScript29]

Just eyeballing it, RNH seemed to play with McDavid most at the beginning of the year and the end of year, where he put up a little bit less than half of his production, the middle 2/4 the of the season, he put up w little more than half of his production without playing with McDavid or Draisatl as much.

I'd be shocked if he scored more than half of his points without the contribution of McDavid or Draisatl. Someone should find the count, I'm sure there's a source somewhere.

That's besides the point, he put up 69 points, not 100.

 

[ricky0034]

Like Nail Yakupov? Draft position means you should be better? What? So if RNH started better than Larkin it's because of his draft status? Come on man.... Mantha had one good month the end of the season and a good tournament that's not clearly trending upwards. You still don't know what he will bring. He is VERY inconsistent!

even Yakupov had a pretty good start to his NHL career

top picks are just plain ready faster,it's a big part of why they go 1st overall to begin with

 

[Ezekial]

even Yakupov had a pretty good start to his NHL career

top picks are just plain ready faster,it's a big part of why they go 1st overall to begin with

Nail Yakupov in his 19 year old rookie year out produced 19 year old RNH in his sophomore year in the same season on the same team. Now did those pure point totals make him the more impactful player that year? Idk I didn't watch it, I just think it's hilarious that Yak is TG2V's go to example in so many situations.

 

[Messrules11]

Oiler fan here. I’ve been an Oiler STH for 31 years and I’ve never been a Nuge fan. He’s soft, has a muffin wrist shot, doesn’t have a slap shot, doesn’t hit, can’t win a face off, is a minus player every year, wears an ‘A’ yet shows no leadership. The only thing he’s lead us to is lottery picks. We’ve paid him around 36M already and for what?
Obviously I’d love for this trade to happen but for Red Wings fans I’d be very scared, run, don’t walk from this deal.

 

[SirloinUB]

But but but he has POTENTIAL. Especially when he is "engaged". Aka doesn't play hard all the time.

Blake Wheeler biggest asset was potential for 10 years. He was 28 years for his first 70 point season and 30 before his 1st point/game season. Now he 32 and is sitting on back to back 90 point seasons.

But hey, what good is having potential.

 

[izlez]

The positive for Mantha is he has shown sustained productivity in a playoff type atmosphere.

..........................What?

 

[jkutswings]

..........................What?

World Championships:

Detroit Red Wings at Worlds: Anthony Mantha's pretty goal highlights Saturday

 

[izlez]

World Championships:

Detroit Red Wings at Worlds: Anthony Mantha's pretty goal highlights Saturday

I mean, I'm aware of the fact that he's playing in the tournament and doing well, and that's cool.

I just don't follow how 6 games, in the round robin portion of a tournament, against teams like Great Britain, Italy, Denmark, and Latvia (I don't care to look up which garbage teams Canada has actually played) remotely qualifies as "sustained" productivity in a "playoff type atmosphere"

 

[jkutswings]

I mean, I'm aware of the fact that he's playing in the tournament and doing well, and that's cool.

I just don't follow how 6 games, in the round robin portion of a tournament, against teams like Great Britain, Italy, Denmark, and Latvia (I don't care to look up which garbage teams Canada has actually played) remotely qualifies as "sustained" productivity in a "playoff type atmosphere"

No arguments here. But if upside down logic helps trade a good forward for a good defenseman, then I'm all aboard the IIHF Hype Train.

 

[Athana see you later]

Agreed.

Honestly, I think too many people here underestimate just how much the defense can improve just by getting rid of Kronwall, Ericsson, and Daley as every night players and replacing them with players who can actually skate and keep up in today's NHL.

If this team is still finishing bottom 5 in in the 20-21 season it probably means that an extremely large percentage of AA, Mantha, Hronek, Rasmussen, Cholowski, Zadina, Veleno, etc probably were busts or didn't improve enough from where they are now (in the case of Hronek, AA, Mantha). In that case, the rebuild probably would need to basically start over.

Long story short, IMO 2 seasons from now the Wings will either be relatively competitive for the playoffs and on the upswing, or be resetting the entire rebuild because their prospects/young players by and large were busts.

So true. Just look how we magically got better at the end of the season when all of those old defensemen were out of the line up. The people who got called up were not necessarily better, but they could skate much better. That opened up everything for forwards and let us see more of what Blashill system looks like with modern, mobile defensemen.

 

[ThankGord]

So true. Just look how we magically got better at the end of the season when all of those old defensemen were out of the line up. The people who got called up were not necessarily better, but they could skate much better. That opened up everything for forwards and let us see more of what Blashill system looks like with modern, mobile defensemen.

I hope this is the case and thought the same thing at the time. But I wonder how much of our success was due to other teams taking it easy going into the playoffs/end of the season while the Wings' young forward core were still fighting for goals.

I definitely agree about Blash's system though, I don't think we've seen it working with the right parts yet (mainly mobile defensemen).