Management Thread - The Beat Goes On

[Peter10]

Sounds like the cap is gonna be flat at 81 million so let’s see what happens with the roster

Appears to be 81.5m for the next two years and 82.5m the two years after, although as of 22-23 there seems to be the option of having the cap calculated based on the 20-22 financial results. No compliance buyouts (now this would be my - told you so moment) either. Its going to be quite a challenge for the Canucks not just 20-21 but also the year after.

 

[Jack Burton]

Appears to be 81.5m for the next two years and 82.5m the two years after, although as of 22-23 there seems to be the option of having the cap calculated based on the 20-22 financial results. No compliance buyouts (now this would be my - told you so moment) either. Its going to be quite a challenge for the Canucks not just 20-21 but also the year after.

We're screwed.

We gotta up Pettersson & Hughes....then Boeser....and if Miller keeps pouring it on, Horvat & Miller.

All while completely rebuilding the D,

Solving the goaltending issue,

The cap issues,

Rebuilding Utica...and...icing a competitive NHL 3rd and 4th line at the fraction of the cost that we have become sooooo accustom to over the years.

The 3 Horseman have their work cut out for them but I do believe they can do it.

 

[Jack Burton]

And when I say I believe they can do it

That means sending us straight to the bottom of the standings by 2023.

 

[sting101]

That Toffoli trade was such a waste of assets. But that's what Benning does...

Just like every other team that adds at the deadline?

 

[Bleach Clean]

Just like every other team that adds at the deadline?

Are you saying that each and every deadline deal is a waste of assets?

 

[VanillaCoke]

Just like every other team that adds at the deadline?

Or are you saying that the canucks we're only a Tyler Toffoli away from winning the cup?

 

[Jack Burton]

Or are you saying that the canucks we're only a Tyler Toffoli away from winning the cup?

 

[datboichoi]

Just like every other team that adds at the deadline?

Teams that add usually don’t win one regulation game in ~10 after “adding”

 

[Fatass]

Just like every other team that adds at the deadline?

It’s okay to add at the deadline, but not to give up a top prospect and a high second in hopes of just (maybe?) making the playoffs.
This is the kind of trade teams close to being a Cup winner do. It’s not ever done by teams to push them over that #8 in their conference bar.
The Tofoli trade was a serious waste of assets, which would have served far more purpose as sweetener to dump Loui and Sutter, and alleviate cap issues. (Which a rebuilding team should never have anyway)
On every level of evaluation Benning/Wisebrod fail miserably.

 

[rypper]

Will Aquilini still be so enthralled with Jim when he has to approach ownership, hat in hand, to ask for 7 ish million dollars to buyout Sutter and Baertschi?

 

[vanuck]

Everyone knew the cap mismanagement would come back to bite them. It's only been delayed because of a global pandemic.

 

[sting101]

Bennings logic for the Toffoli trade was sound. He obviously was trying to salvage a season (and his job) in which the team had been arcing towards the playoffs and then flailing losing 2 top6 right wingers Boeser Leivo as well as Markstrom to injury. If he stood by and did nothing everyone would be second guessing him also.

And @Luckylarry lots of teams have made moves to improve their teams even as 8 seeds. With the way you guys are talking then Pat Quinn should have never traded for Jeff Brown in 94. And saying we wasted the assets without knowing Toffoli's future with the team, how Madden looks as a pro nor how this season ends is also being conclusive to an open ended story.

I think i share the view that we would be better served to have planned for a major push come 21/22 and beyond with having Petey and Hughes emergence as top players in the league but needing to add defensive acumen and strength, but my ass is not on the line so it's easy for me to feel that way.

You should be aware at this point that Benning does not subscribe to your paradigm that we shall build and build until a certain date in the future. He obviously has been feeling the pressure since he made all the moves last summer to take the next step and be a playoff team. If he fails he likely gets canned and all his work is for not.

To answer a few questions @Bleach Clean and @VanillaCoke. I don't think we were a Toffoli away from a cup and every deadline deal with a UFA that walks looks like a waste when you don't win.

 

[Hit the post]

Will Aquilini still be so enthralled with Jim when he has to approach ownership, hat in hand, to ask for 7 ish million dollars to buyout Sutter and Baertschi?

Why not? Fredo hasn’t said Jack about wasting 20 something millions on do nothing LE.

 

[xtra]

Bennings logic for the Toffoli trade was sound. He obviously was trying to salvage a season (and his job) in which the team had been arcing towards the playoffs and then flailing losing 2 top6 right wingers Boeser Leivo as well as Markstrom to injury. If he stood by and did nothing everyone would be second guessing him also.

And @Luckylarry lots of teams have made moves to improve their teams even as 8 seeds. With the way you guys are talking then Pat Quinn should have never traded for Jeff Brown in 94. And saying we wasted the assets without knowing Toffoli's future with the team, how Madden looks as a pro nor how this season ends is also being conclusive to an open ended story.

I think i share the view that we would be better served to have planned for a major push come 21/22 and beyond with having Petey and Hughes emergence as top players in the league but needing to add defensive acumen and strength, but my ass is not on the line so it's easy for me to feel that way.

You should be aware at this point that Benning does not subscribe to your paradigm that we shall build and build until a certain date in the future. He obviously has been feeling the pressure since he made all the moves last summer to take the next step and be a playoff team. If he fails he likely gets canned and all his work is for not.

To answer a few questions @Bleach Clean and @VanillaCoke. I don't think we were a Toffoli away from a cup and every deadline deal with a UFA that walks looks like a waste when you don't win.

So your saying cause bennings job was on the line it was a good deal?

as a fan I’m supposed to care about bennings job or what’s best for the canucks winning the cup when assessing a trade.

 

[Fatass]

Bennings logic for the Toffoli trade was sound. He obviously was trying to salvage a season (and his job) in which the team had been arcing towards the playoffs and then flailing losing 2 top6 right wingers Boeser Leivo as well as Markstrom to injury. If he stood by and did nothing everyone would be second guessing him also.

And @Luckylarry lots of teams have made moves to improve their teams even as 8 seeds. With the way you guys are talking then Pat Quinn should have never traded for Jeff Brown in 94. And saying we wasted the assets without knowing Toffoli's future with the team, how Madden looks as a pro nor how this season ends is also being conclusive to an open ended story.

I think i share the view that we would be better served to have planned for a major push come 21/22 and beyond with having Petey and Hughes emergence as top players in the league but needing to add defensive acumen and strength, but my ass is not on the line so it's easy for me to feel that way.

You should be aware at this point that Benning does not subscribe to your paradigm that we shall build and build until a certain date in the future. He obviously has been feeling the pressure since he made all the moves last summer to take the next step and be a playoff team. If he fails he likely gets canned and all his work is for not.

To answer a few questions @Bleach Clean and @VanillaCoke. I don't think we were a Toffoli away from a cup and every deadline deal with a UFA that walks looks like a waste when you don't win.

I cannot think of a bubble playoff team (with extremely young core guys, who project to be at their most competitive in 2-4 years) that traded a top prospect and a high second for a rental. It never happens because the timing is wrong.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

I cannot think of a bubble playoff team (with extremely young core guys, who project to be at their most competitive in 2-4 years) that traded a top prospect and a high second for a rental. It never happens because the timing is wrong.

Aquilini is a moron who talks out of both sides of his mouth.
"Our ultimate goal is to win a Cup" mixed with "make the playoffs asap at all costs, f*** the future of the team." Kind of impossible to satisfy both mandates.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Just like every other team that adds at the deadline?

Oh good to know, apparently telling someone that not every bubble team that has poor analytics adds at the deadline isn't allowed either.

But like I said, praising Benning for his stupidity at this year's trade deadline is quite sad. It's exactly the kind of thing John Ferguson Jr used to do with Toronto and that was a complete disaster.

 

[RandV]

I cannot think of a bubble playoff team (with extremely young core guys, who project to be at their most competitive in 2-4 years) that traded a top prospect and a high second for a rental. It never happens because the timing is wrong.

It's not that uncommon over the years, but usually it's a fringe team that's been out of the playoffs for a long time and have built up a healthy prospect cupboard. Over the past 10+ years Atlanta, Columbus, and NYI come to mind as teams that splurged at the deadline in a low seed and I think all got swept in the first round and didn't make it back the next year.

Now a fringe team with a shallow prospect pool is another thing entirely, I can't think of any.

 

[RandV]

As always, this is made into a big deal by some here. The Canucks considered making the trade with the idea that they would get a sweetener in return to take on Lucic's extra year. The Canucks should consider it and they did and decided against it.

No actually any team with a reasonable amount of foresight should not have considered swapping Eriksson for Lucic. The big calendar date to circle for the Canucks is when Pettersson and Hughes contracts are up, and at that point Eriksson has 1 year left and after the July 1st bonus only $3M in actual salary. If you have to move him at this point from a pre-covid perspective it should have been doable. The cost to move Lucic on the other hand, who would still have 2 years remaining at that point, would be much higher than any 'sweetener' (Puljujarvi?) that Benning would have gotten for taking him.

 

[Bob Long]

Will Aquilini still be so enthralled with Jim when he has to approach ownership, hat in hand, to ask for 7 ish million dollars to buyout Sutter and Baertschi?

Thats what has to happen in order to keep Toffoli. Buying out Bear + Sutter + burying 1.025 mil of Loui in Utica saves 4.96 mil in cap space, which should be within 500k of Toffoli's deal. Hopefully he'd sign at 5 given the cap pressure all teams are under tho.

If they can move Benn 50% retained to somewhere even more cap strapped like TO then Toffoli's extension is covered fully.

That leaves 18 mil for everything else. Very tight but do-able if they don't re-up Leivo.

There's no incentive to buy out Loui this season, it only saves 300k in year 1.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

Thats what has to happen in order to keep Toffoli. Buying out Bear + Sutter + burying 1.025 mil of Loui in Utica saves 4.96 mil in cap space, which should be within 500k of Toffoli's deal. Hopefully he'd sign at 5 given the cap pressure all teams are under tho.

If they can move Benn 50% retained to somewhere even more cap strapped like TO then Toffoli's extension is covered fully.

That leaves 18 mil for everything else. Very tight but do-able if they don't re-up Leivo.

There's no incentive to buy out Loui this season, it only saves 300k in year 1.

Do-able but unlikely with our management team. Benning has not shown any sign of fully understanding the cap or any ability to critically think.

 

[Bob Long]

No actually any team with a reasonable amount of foresight should not have considered swapping Eriksson for Lucic. The big calendar date to circle for the Canucks is when Pettersson and Hughes contracts are up, and at that point Eriksson has 1 year left and after the July 1st bonus only $3M in actual salary. If you have to move him at this point from a pre-covid perspective it should have been doable. The cost to move Lucic on the other hand, who would still have 2 years remaining at that point, would be much higher than any 'sweetener' (Puljujarvi?) that Benning would have gotten for taking him.

swapping Neal for Lucic was dumber.

If you believe that Looch still brings a fear factor and are happy with that + his 8-10 goals, for what Loui does + his 8-10 goals + a significant sweetener then its understandable why there would have been some phone calls.

 

[Bob Long]

Do-able but unlikely with our management team. Benning has not shown any sign of fully understanding the cap or any ability to critically think.

Gear will be doing the math. There's also no more options. Aquilini can't say no to the buyouts, it would hurt the on ice product too much and they need all the $$ they can get.

The only 'miracle' cap saving thing that could happen is Loui agreeing to terminate but thats a long shot.

 

[Peter10]

Thats what has to happen in order to keep Toffoli. Buying out Bear + Sutter + burying 1.025 mil of Loui in Utica saves 4.96 mil in cap space, which should be within 500k of Toffoli's deal. Hopefully he'd sign at 5 given the cap pressure all teams are under tho.

If they can move Benn 50% retained to somewhere even more cap strapped like TO then Toffoli's extension is covered fully.

That leaves 18 mil for everything else. Very tight but do-able if they don't re-up Leivo.

There's no incentive to buy out Loui this season, it only saves 300k in year 1.

Just going by this years team the savings will be smaller. Bartschi was already demoted so he counted only 2.3m against the cap. A buyout now would only save approx 600k over sending him to the minors, and an additional 800k cap hit next year. Similar for Sutter, demoting him would cost you only 1.3m more than buying him out which would add another 1.2m next year. The team is already in serious cap trouble for 21-22, adding another 2m is probably not the best idea.

Also, assuming everything done as you suggested, you still have to add another 3 players to replace Eriksson, Sutter and Benn, this adds at least 2.25m to the payroll.

 

[Peter10]

Gear will be doing the math. There's also no more options. Aquilini can't say no to the buyouts, it would hurt the on ice product too much and they need all the $$ they can get.

The only 'miracle' cap saving thing that could happen is Loui agreeing to terminate but thats a long shot.

Just as a rough reference since I did this exercise earlier, assuming no one gets bought out, they have the space to sign one of Markstrom/Tanev/Toffoli. To sign two, they have to get rid of Sutter and Baertschi without retaining salary, to get all 3 done (at roughly 5-6m each) Eriksson needs to be cleared of the cap as well.

Edit: This is assuming Ferland on LTIR. However, since he is looking to return for the play ins apparently it would mean he would have to count against the cap too, making the situation worse.