Management Thread - The Beat Goes On

[Hit the post]

No actually any team with a reasonable amount of foresight should not have considered swapping Eriksson for

a bag of magic beans.

But yeah, you're only going to get an equally awful contract in return for the six million dollar bust (at least not without a 1st rounder+ going back the other way).

 

[m9]

Thats what has to happen in order to keep Toffoli. Buying out Bear + Sutter + burying 1.025 mil of Loui in Utica saves 4.96 mil in cap space, which should be within 500k of Toffoli's deal. Hopefully he'd sign at 5 given the cap pressure all teams are under tho.

If they can move Benn 50% retained to somewhere even more cap strapped like TO then Toffoli's extension is covered fully.

That leaves 18 mil for everything else. Very tight but do-able if they don't re-up Leivo.

There's no incentive to buy out Loui this season, it only saves 300k in year 1.

Moving Benn at 50% does practically nothing as you still need to replace him on the roster. Same goes for the other players. Your math doesn't work.

 

[Bob Long]

Moving Benn at 50% does practically nothing as you still need to replace him on the roster. Same goes for the other players. Your math doesn't work.

it moves Benn, which on its own is good, and allows an ELC to come up, plus probably nets us a 4th from TO e.g. Sure you could bury him for the same money savings but then you get nothing for him.

 

[m9]

it moves Benn, which on its own is good, and allows an ELC to come up, plus probably nets us a 4th from TO e.g. Sure you could bury him for the same money savings but then you get nothing for him.

I'm fine with moving on from him as a player, it just doesn't create much cap room as you were suggesting since you need to fill his roster spot using the 1 million.

 

[Bob Long]

I'm fine with moving on from him as a player, it just doesn't create much cap room as you were suggesting since you need to fill his roster spot using the 1 million.

true, its only a couple of hundred grand but I'd like the pick too.

 

[Bob Long]

can you repost your math?

 

[Teflon Jim]

Seriously, just with these recent mistakes (you listed) from Benning, one would think the owner would fire the guy. But instead the owner allows Benning to force out a guy like Bracket (who was doing a really good job) and assume more responsibility.
Our owner makes piles of money, but no sense.

I hear Aquaman is fitting Jim with a teflon suit and now nothing sticks to him.

 

[Teflon Jim]

The same crowd that usually comes around every July and boasts about the new signings and how awesome they will be.

Unfortunately some hard decisions will have to go down the next 2-4 years and management will have a shortened window to build around the core of Pettersson, Horvat and Hughes. I didn't include Boeser because I think he will be a cap casualty to make way for actual defensemen.

Most of our contracts , buyouts and recapture penalty disappear in a puff of smoke in two years with Meyers 2yrs ferland 1 yr left at that point.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Most of our contracts , buyouts and recapture penalty disappear in a puff of smoke in two years with Meyers 2yrs ferland 1 yr left at that point.

...and there's certainly no chance Benning adds more bad contracts like he's done every single UFA season in the past.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Bennings logic for the Toffoli trade was sound. He obviously was trying to salvage a season (and his job) in which the team had been arcing towards the playoffs and then flailing losing 2 top6 right wingers Boeser Leivo as well as Markstrom to injury. If he stood by and did nothing everyone would be second guessing him also.

And @Luckylarry lots of teams have made moves to improve their teams even as 8 seeds. With the way you guys are talking then Pat Quinn should have never traded for Jeff Brown in 94. And saying we wasted the assets without knowing Toffoli's future with the team, how Madden looks as a pro nor how this season ends is also being conclusive to an open ended story.

I think i share the view that we would be better served to have planned for a major push come 21/22 and beyond with having Petey and Hughes emergence as top players in the league but needing to add defensive acumen and strength, but my ass is not on the line so it's easy for me to feel that way.

You should be aware at this point that Benning does not subscribe to your paradigm that we shall build and build until a certain date in the future. He obviously has been feeling the pressure since he made all the moves last summer to take the next step and be a playoff team. If he fails he likely gets canned and all his work is for not.

To answer a few questions @Bleach Clean and @VanillaCoke. I don't think we were a Toffoli away from a cup and every deadline deal with a UFA that walks looks like a waste when you don't win.

I don't think you can contend that Benning's logic for the Toffoli trade was sound. There is a logic to it, yes, but it's not sound logic. He makes a trade to preserve his job at the expense of the long-term strength of the franchise. Do other GMs do it too? Yes. That doesn't make it a sound decision though, does it?

If Toffoli walks, are you panning the move?

The quirk here is that you actually know that preserving the long-term outlook of the franchise is paramount, but you excuse Benning for doing the working against it anyway because you understand it to be an act of self-preservation. That blows my mind. Once an act is known to be selfish, why support it because you understand why it is selfish?

Who cares if Benning does not subscribe to the paradigm being put forth here? No one here, I hope.

Some deadline deals still look good regardless of whether the cup follows them. All depends upon the player, the package given up, and most importantly, the strength of the team when making the trade.

 

[RobertKron]

And @Luckylarry lots of teams have made moves to improve their teams even as 8 seeds. With the way you guys are talking then Pat Quinn should have never traded for Jeff Brown in 94. And saying we wasted the assets without knowing Toffoli's future with the team, how Madden looks as a pro nor how this season ends is also being conclusive to an open ended story.

The Canucks acquired Brown, Hedican, and ?Nathan Lafayette? at the deadline by sending 25yo, 100pt player Craig Janney back to the Blues. Janney had been playing for the Blues all season, and was awarded to the Canucks by an arbitrator a few days before the deadline as part of the compensation for the Blues having signed RFA Peter Nedved who had been holding out all season. Janney refused to report to the Canucks, so the Canucks traded him back to the Blues.

What in the absolute hell does that have in common with the Toffoli trade?

 

[Bleach Clean]

Delete.​

 

[Bleach Clean]

Who NJ picks or when they pick does not affect the Canucks in anyway except the year we pick. It affects our assessment of the trade but not the assets on the Canucks. No matter what NJ receives in the future the Canucks are in the same situation.

You are talking about the assessment of the trade while I am talking about the consequence of the trade on the Canucks. Without doubt the Canucks are a better team because of this deal. They hit a homerun that does not depend on NJ's pick. The consequence of this trade was positive for the Canucks. The consequence for TB was positive as well though I would say less so. The consequence for NJ is TBD, though it is a plausible that they get a very good young player, while TB wins a cup and Vancouver sped up their progress to a legit playoff team. Neither of the successful outcomes depends on a negative outcome for the other teams. They are now three different team spectrums to view these two independent trades which makes assessing this trade difficult. However one assesses these trade the truth is that the outcome for one team does not affect the outcome for the other teams.

Moving this here because the JT Miller thread was closed.

I'm trying to understand your response here: Essentially, what you're saying is that as soon as an asset leaves the organization, and no longer directly impacts the source team, then all external outcomes of said transaction are of no consequence to the source team. Do I have that right?

If that's correct, then when does a bad trade affect a team? Or, are they all of no consequence because the rewards are being reaped elsewhere?

If that’s not what you mean, please clarify.

As an example of the above, was there a consequence to TOR when trading picks for Kessel? If so, what was it?

 

[xtra]

Ok I’ll be nice and do the hard work for everyone and hope it’s correct:

assumptions: all rfa sign 10% min raise; ferland isn’t in ltir; Hughes/petersson bonus is at the full 1.7; we still need to sign a 5th dman ( min 2 mil?)

Forwards
Ericksson - 6 million
Boeser - 5.85 million
Horvat - 5.5million
Jt miller - 5.25
Sutter - 4.38 million
Pearson - 3.75
Rousell - 3 million
Beagle - 3 million
Peterson - .925
Ferland -3.5
RFA
Virtanen (1.375 million)
Motte (1.072 million)
Gaudette (1.008 million)
Mcewen (.932)
Forwards total:
If the 4 RFAs signed their 10% tender our 14 forwards here are 45.54 million

Defence:
Edler - 6 million
Myers - 6 million
Benn - 2 million
Hughes - .917k
RFA
stetcher ( 2.563)

Defence total: if stetcher resigns at his 10% tender our 5 dmen here are at 17.48 million

Goalies:
Demko: 1.05 million
Dipietro .812

Goalies: 1.862


Dead cap: 8.05 million
Sven - 2.29 million
Spooner - 1.03 million
Luongo - 3.03 million
Hughes/pettersson bonus(to be confirmed) - 1.7 million


Total: 74.932 million
Forwards: 45.54 million (14 forwards)
Defense: 17.48 million (5 dmen)
Goalies: 1.862 million (2 goalies)
Dead cap: 8.05 million


Current roster (ignore positions/lines)
Miller - pettersson - boeser
Ericksson- horvat-Pearson
Rousell - sutter - fearland
Virtanen-beagle- motte

Edler-Myers
Hughes-benn
Stetcher - ?????

Demko
Dipietro

 

[Peter10]

Ok I’ll be nice and do the hard work for everyone and hope it’s correct:

assumptions: all rfa sign 10% min raise; ferland isn’t in ltir; Hughes/petersson bonus is at the full 3.7; we still need to sign a 5th dman ( min 2 mil?)

Forwards
Ericksson - 6 million
Boeser - 5.85 million
Horvat - 5.5million
Jt miller - 5.25
Sutter - 4.38 million
Pearson - 3.75
Rousell - 3 million
Beagle - 3 million
Peterson - .925
Ferland -3.5
RFA
Virtanen (1.375 million)
Motte (1.072 million)
Gaudette (1.008 million)
Mcewen (.932)
Forwards total:
If the 4 RFAs signed their 10% tender our 14 forwards here are 45.54 million

Defence:
Edler - 6 million
Myers - 6 million
Benn - 2 million
Hughes - .917k
RFA
stetcher ( 2.563)

Defence total: if stetcher resigns at his 10% tender our 5 dmen here are at 17.48 million

Goalies:
Demko: 1.05 million
Dipietro .812

Goalies: 1.862


Dead cap: 10.05 million
Sven - 2.29 million
Spooner - 1.03 million
Luongo - 3.03 million
Hughes/pettersson bonus(to be confirmed) - 3.7 million


Total: 74.932 million
Forwards: 45.54 million (14 forwards)
Defense: 17.48 million (5 dmen)
Goalies: 1.862 million (2 goalies)
Dead cap: 10.05 million


Current roster (ignore positions/lines)
Miller - pettersson - boeser
Ericksson- horvat-Pearson
Rousell - sutter - fearland
Virtanen-beagle- motte

Edler-Myers
Hughes-benn
Stetcher - ?????

Demko
Dipietro

I think for the deferred bonus you can take the 1.7m instead. Pettersson most likely wont hit his B Bonus, he would have to finish top 5 in Hart or Selke, top 3 for Lady Byng, make the 1st or 2nd all star team. The others qualifiers (top 10 in goals, assists etc) are no longer possible.

 

[datboichoi]

Yikes some recent news from the Twitter verse suggests the teams scouts wanted Pastarnak in 2014 but Benning liked Bleckley and settled for McCann when he was taken.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Yikes some recent news from the Twitter verse suggests the teams scouts wanted Pastarnak in 2014 but Benning liked Bleckley and settled for McCann when he was taken.

Where? Please link your source.

 

[datboichoi]

Where? Please link your source.

On the Area 51 Podcast in an interview with Patrick Johnson of the Vancouver Sun.

 

[Peter10]

Where? Please link your source.

It was Patrick Johnston on the Area51 podcast, somewhere at the 33-ish minute mark. Have to listen closely though, he just mentions like it was common knowledge.

 

[absolute garbage]

I think for the deferred bonus you can take the 1.7m instead. Pettersson most likely wont hit his B Bonus, he would have to finish top 5 in Hart or Selke, top 3 for Lady Byng, make the 1st or 2nd all star team. The others qualifiers (top 10 in goals, assists etc) are no longer possible.

So you can add 2 million to his projection, but then again, I'd say it's unlikely that you can sign Virtanen and Gaudette with 10% raises because of the seasons they had (Virtanen was going to have a 20+20 season and Gaudette with 40+ points too). Deferred bonus is 2M cheaper than he thought, but realistically that 2M is probably going into Virtanen's and Gaudette's raises.

Going by his numbers, and assuming the above, Canucks have roughly 6.5M cap space with 14 forwards and 5 defenseman and 2 goalies. If Markstrom signs for ~6M they have space to add that one defenseman under 1M and that's it.

 

[Peter10]

So you can add 2 million to his projection, but then again, I'd say it's unlikely that you can sign Virtanen and Gaudette with 10% raises because of the seasons they had (Virtanen was going to have a 20+20 season and Gaudette with 40+ points too). Deferred bonus is 2M cheaper than he thought, but realistically that 2M is probably going into Virtanen's and Gaudette's raises.

Going by his numbers, and assuming the above, Canucks have roughly 6.5M cap space with 14 forwards and 5 defenseman and 2 goalies. If Markstrom signs for ~6M they have space to add that one defenseman under 1M and that's it.

Yeah, there could be something creative to make it work better (Markström + Tanev maybe) but then again we are talking about Benning here, so creative might not be the highest possibility.

Next thing to consider is obviously the bonuses for this year which will again be deferred to next year if this is a cap ceiling team. Adding 1.7m or even 3.7m to next year when Pettersson and Hughes need a new contract would just increase the problems.

 

[absolute garbage]

Yeah, there could be something creative to make it work better (Markström + Tanev maybe) but then again we are talking about Benning here, so creative might not be the highest possibility.

Next thing to consider is obviously the bonuses for this year which will again be deferred to next year if this is a cap ceiling team. Adding 1.7m or even 3.7m to next year when Pettersson and Hughes need a new contract would just increase the problems.

Yeah, 21-22 is going to be a rough one. Pettersson and Hughes will surely take 15M+ of the cap, could be ~20M when you include next season's deferred bonuses.

But you pretty much have to somehow dump Eriksson if you want to re-sign Tanev. Or something else, like getting rid of Baertschi and Sutter. But these are all pretty big and also expensive moves that have to be made just to sign Tanev. Not even mentioning Toffoli. Benning is going to have a busy October/November if he wants to pull this off.

 

[xtra]

I think for the deferred bonus you can take the 1.7m instead. Pettersson most likely wont hit his B Bonus, he would have to finish top 5 in Hart or Selke, top 3 for Lady Byng, make the 1st or 2nd all star team. The others qualifiers (top 10 in goals, assists etc) are no longer possible.

Thanks I’ll fix it

 

[Fatass]

Yeah, 21-22 is going to be a rough one. Pettersson and Hughes will surely take 15M+ of the cap, could be ~20M when you include next season's deferred bonuses.

But you pretty much have to somehow dump Eriksson if you want to re-sign Tanev. Or something else, like getting rid of Baertschi and Sutter. But these are all pretty big and also expensive moves that have to be made just to sign Tanev. Not even mentioning Toffoli. Benning is going to have a busy October/November if he wants to pull this off.

We are going to be losing good players, because we have to keep lesser players on crap contracts.
Marky, Tanev, and Tofoli could all be gone, unless we dump Loui, Baer, Sutter, and Beagle. Dumping those four will cost how much in sweetener, especially now with this new Covid cap.
Benning has proven he’s willing to sacrifice the future for the now. Why will he not sacrifice the team’s future (picks and prospects) for the now again?
The saddest part of this scenario is Benning sacrifices the future for a now that is mediocre, and our owner likes it.

 

[Peter10]

Thanks I’ll fix it

Maybe we should have a dedicated topic with the first post being the current overview for the cap situation and have that updated whenever things change. Probably easier as starting anew when there is another "ah we just dump x and y and then we will have gazillions of cap space" post.