Management Thread | Inconceivable Edition

[JAK]

If Benning hadn't signed a bunch of deadweight depth players to overpriced contracts 2-3 years ago the Canucks might have been able to add a free agent or two this season and compete for the Stanley Cup. That's one aspect of the "present situation" which you say should change interpretation of the past and the future.

Did you predict the emergence of Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes, Demko and Hoglander?? Did you predict Horvat developing from a solid 2b to a 1b?

No one could have predicted those development and I am willing to bet my life savings that each player would say having those players with "overpriced" contracts were vitally important in their development.

Beagle is a champion at every level, brings solid defense and PK, and is missed in Washington.
Roussel is a pest, and he takes the attention from opposing pests off our skilled players. He drags the team into battles.
Sutter is a foundational player, same as Beagle. Kids have to work harder than him to earn the ice time.

Eriksson was an ownership move to compete for the Sedins. Myers in a sense was the same thing, they needed to make the playoffs last season, period. Toffoli was brought in because Boeser was out, and again, we needed to make the playoffs.

If people are going to use hindsight as argument, I'm just gonna start ignoring people, it pisses me off.

 

[JAK]

Why has Benning traded away so many high picks, especially since we were in a rebuilding phase?

The 1st for JT Miller was vital with the emergence of the young crop of players, the timeline to start competing moved up, and he was someone Benning had targetted for a long time.

The 2nd for Toffoli was a deadline deal, with Boeser injuried, the Canucks needed to make the playoffs last year, probably pressure from ownership.

3rd for Schmidt is a win.

 

[4Twenty]

Did you predict the emergence of Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes, Demko and Hoglander?? Did you predict Horvat developing from a solid 2b to a 1b?

No one could have predicted those development and I am willing to bet my life savings that each player would say having those players with "overpriced" contracts were vitally important in their development.

Beagle is a champion at every level, brings solid defense and PK, and is missed in Washington.
Roussel is a pest, and he takes the attention from opposing pests off our skilled players. He drags the team into battles.
Sutter is a foundational player, same as Beagle. Kids have to work harder than him to earn the ice time.

Eriksson was an ownership move to compete for the Sedins. Myers in a sense was the same thing, they needed to make the playoffs last season, period. Toffoli was brought in because Boeser was out, and again, we needed to make the playoffs.

If people are going to use hindsight as argument, I'm just gonna start ignoring people, it pisses me off.

Nobody used hindsight to know all of the bad deals would come back to haunt the team when it was time for them to turn a corner. Every single one was predicted to age poorly.

The kids being good unpredictability as you say, should show you how bad those deals are.

Vitally important. Haha. Eriksson is watching. Baertschi is buried. Ferland at home.

The contracts kept them from adding to their group and forced them to lose good players. All predicted at the time. No hindsight required.

Better start ignoring.

 

[JAK]

Nobody used hindsight to know all of the bad deals would come back to haunt the team when it was time for them to turn a corner. Every single one.

The kids being good unpredictability as you say, should show you how bad those deals are.

Vitally important. Haha. Eriksson is watching. Baertschi is buried. Ferland at home.

The contracts kept them from adding to their group and forced them to lose good players. All predicted at the time. No hindsight required.

Better start ignoring.

You can predict concussions? Why didn't you tell me when I got my first of three ???

 

[4Twenty]

You can predict concussions? Why didn't you tell me when I got my first of three ???

Both Baertschi and Ferland were known concussion issues. Both bad deals.

ferland uninsurable.

 

[bandwagonesque]

It's not my fault people don't qualify their comparisons by adding in a line saying "I know Benning has drafted much higher than Gillis, but..."
If they did that to preface their opinion, then you'd have a point here.

This is one of the most ludicrous things you've ever said.

The statement, "Benning has drafted better than Gillis in the first round," is simply true by any measure. It in no way implies the person saying it doesn't understand the variance in pick value and no one has to preface the statement with anything to stop a reasonable person from interpreting it to mean that. His picks have performed far better according to the expected success of players drafted at those spots.

 

[JAK]

Both Baertschi and Ferland were known concussion issues. Both bad deals.

ferland uninsurable.

Following that logic, we should not have resigned Boeser and should have waived him cause he has injury issue?

A ton of teams that were rebuilding the same time Vancouver was would be envious of our current roster.

Real life isn't fantasy sports.

 

[VanillaCoke]

You can predict concussions? Why didn't you tell me when I got my first of three ???

Ahhh now it makes sense

You can definitely predict players with a history of concussions are likely to sustain another yes.

 

[4Twenty]

Following that logic, we should not have resigned Boeser and should have waived him cause he has injury issue?

A ton of teams that were rebuilding the same time Vancouver was would be envious of our current roster.

Real life isn't fantasy sports.

No. Not at all.

Theyve got a nice young core being held back by Benning signings and failures.

 

[JAK]

No. Not at all.

Theyve got a nice young core being held back by Benning signings and failures.

I would argue that without those supporting players, our young core would not be where they are today.

You can go ask the players, the coaches, and hockey commentators. They would most likely tell you the same thing.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

The statement, "Benning has drafted better than Gillis in the first round," is simply true by any measure. It in no way implies the person saying it doesn't understand the variance in pick value and no one has to preface the statement with anything to stop a reasonable person from interpreting it to mean that. His picks have performed far better according to the expected success of players drafted at those spots.

Right, and I'm stating why it's a bad comparison and comes off as cherry picking.

 

[4Twenty]

I would argue that without those supporting players, our young core would not be where they are today.

You can go ask the players, the coaches, and hockey commentators. They would most likely tell you the same thing.

The players were shocked to be losing quality players in the offseason.

They expected to be able to add to the group not swap players.

If you supported the moves at the time fine but I didn’t and many others didn’t as well.

 

[4Twenty]

Right, and I'm stating why it's a bad comparison and comes off as cherry picking.

Benning has drafted better period. He has 4 players drafted in the 24-40 range who have made it. Gillis drafted 2 replacement level players in this range.

Benning has a couple big misses on expectations in the top 10.

At the end of the day the teams been able to add a high end rookie 5 years in a row and the team still isn’t really a contender. There’s more to managing than drafting.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Right, and I'm stating why it's a bad comparison and comes off as cherry picking.

Again -- Benning has drafted better than Gillis in the first round even when draft position is statistically accounted for. The statement, "Benning has drafted better than Gillis in the first round," is true. It isn't a bad comparison or cherry picking and in no way implies the person saying it doesn't understand higher picks generally yield better players and your implication that this is true is totally senseless.

 

[JAK]

The players were shocked to be losing quality players in the offseason.

They expected to be able to add to the group not swap players.

If you supported the moves at the time fine but I didn’t and many others didn’t as well.

I was positive overall about those moves, the extra year and a half of the contracts wasn't good, but it was a price that was okay to pay as the cap was on the rise. I remember the 94 and 11 runs that had a strong capable bottom 6 that did the dirty work and created space for the top 6. And I feel that is what is required to build a culture. I still miss Dorsett, and I think he would have been an amazing asset in the locker room.

Some of the experimental signings like Gagner didn't really hurt us long term, and we were suppose to be bad anyways, so Sbisa, Gudbranson, Del Zotto, Pouliet, these kind of experiments were fine by me. If they worked out, great, and maybe can be flipped for assets.

I remember what late 90s was like, and I remember good bottom 6 guys help grow the young team. Trent Klatt, and an aged Trevor Linden were great to the Sedins, Ohlund to Edler.

I understand that it's the price of doing business, and if it wasn't for COVID, the salary cap would have went up again and all our problems would not exist.

Tanev was going to get his contract, we just could not keep him with the time line that the team is moving unless he was willing to do a short contract like Edler. Tanev's playstyle will lead to a giant risk and we had to cut him loose.

Markstrom was a casualty of the expansion draft and the decisions teams looking ahead needs to make. Simple as that.

Toffoli was the cap casualty. The money had to go to the defensive core. But he was always a rental pick up, not someone we had for years.

Pettersson and Hughes experiencing a trade through their close friends sucks. It does suck, and it sucks even more at their young age.

They will have to play their way through it, and as 87, 71 and 58 in Pittsburgh have learned, they are the main stars, the team will have to build around them because they are the ones taking up most of the cap.

Which, I hope Benning does bring up to Hughes and Pettersson, want your friends to stick by and keep the group together? Sign some friendly contracts, McDavid, Matthews and Marner have shown what bad contracts can do to the team.

Sorry for wall of text, I just, couldn't stop thing.

 

[Pip]

If Toffoli was always a rental pickup then that’s a large overpayment

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

If Toffoli was always a rental pickup then that’s a large overpayment

It was ..but then again, it was pre covid...may have made a difference?

 

[likash]

The biggest problem is that Jimbo was trying to compete and we ended up bottom feeders. All the talk about culture is BS. You don't give 4-6 years contracts for culture. You could find cheap vets for 1-2 years. Vanek has done more for Brock's development than all the overpayed veterans Jimbo brought here. He should have gone the Vanek route with all the vets he signed.

As i said i have no problem with him as AGM in charge of scouting. He should have never been a GM.

 

[joelCAMEL]

The players were shocked to be losing quality players in the offseason.

They expected to be able to add to the group not swap players.

If you supported the moves at the time fine but I didn’t and many others didn’t as well.

I give the players and their agents credit for being aware of the current salary cap and potential for UFAs to move on. I agree that some would have been shocked at the news but I do not think it was a surprise. They look like they have accepted it and moved on. They probably hoped for additions, not expected them. One poster here remarked that if he was a member of the team, that he would have complained on how the team was run. A sure way to gain a rep as a locker room lawyer.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Again -- Benning has drafted better than Gillis in the first round even when draft position is statistically accounted for. The statement, "Benning has drafted better than Gillis in the first round," is true. It isn't a bad comparison or cherry picking and in no way implies the person saying it doesn't understand higher picks generally yield better players and your implication that this is true is totally senseless.

Is the bolded based on just Boeser, where 2015 was arguably the best draft year in the last few decades? Ok.

 

[Hodgy]

It was ..but then again, it was pre covid...may have made a difference?

Had all those people that called it an overpayment at the time the trade was made travelled back in time from covid era NHL?

 

[likash]

Toffoli was aquired after Brock got injured. After the deadline Marky and Tanev both went down. This happened when they lost 12/18 games. They were done at that moment. It was desperation move by Jimbo because if he missed the playoffs again he would have been fired. COVID saved the canucks season and his job.

 

[Peen]

Reminder that the pre covid cap argument makes no sense

Ferland's contract is the equivalent of what the cap was expected to rise to and that's on LTIR lol

 

[bandwagonesque]

Is the bolded based on just Boeser, where 2015 was arguably the best draft year in the last few decades? Ok.

You know what? It’s okay. It’s okay that Benning was more successful than Gillis at one thing that’s both subject to chance and not entirely the responsibility of the GM anyway. And it’s okay that people know and accept this fact, and mention it to one another. You’re going to be okay.

 

[Peter10]

You know what? It’s okay. It’s okay that Benning was more successful than Gillis at one thing that’s both subject to chance and not entirely the responsibility of the GM anyway. And it’s okay that people know and accept this fact, and mention it to one another. You’re going to be okay.

People are not arguing Gillis drafted better than Benning. People are arguing that Benning might not be the "draft god" as proclaimed by several posters here.