Management Thread | Inconceivable Edition

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Lonny Bohonos

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People are not arguing Gillis drafted better than Benning. People are arguing that Benning might not be the "draft god" as proclaimed by several posters here.
He isnt.

Its like the old adage "a lie gets halfway around the world before the truth gets its pants on."

Benning and Chiarelli were both viewed as really good at building through the draft because of Boston. Seemingly ignoring being a shit team for so long and getting good picks helps.

Thats what Benning came here as.

If anything he record is rather pedestrian taking into account the high picks the Canucks have certainly had.


Nevermind for a "drafting guru" he sure gives up his supposed strong hand by trading away picks. Which should give pause to whether he actually is as good as some fans want to make him out to be.
 

likash

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I found it strange that Chia and Jimbo had such a good defence in Boston and build such awfull defence for the Oilers and Canucks. It' like someone stole their brain when they changed teams. Just imagine how the Canucks defence would have looked if it was build from top to bottom by Jimbo. :DD
 
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Lonny Bohonos

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I found it strange that Chia and Jimbo had such a good defence in Boston and build such awfull defence for the Oilers and Canucks. It' like someone stole their brain when they changed teams. Just imagine how the Canucks defence would have looked if it was build from top to bottom by Jimbo. :DD
When Chara is your top guy.

I mean remember they even used him to stand in front of the net on the PP. Guy is flexible in every sense of the word.
 
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likash

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Now i understand why he gave Tyler Myers 6x5. He is almost as tall as Chara. :D
 

Lonny Bohonos

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Now i understand why he gave Tyler Myers 6x5. He is almost as tall as Chara. :D
All joking aside but yes.

People keep projecting what they want players to be not what they are.

Chara might very well be the ultimate d man.

The big difference between him and Meyers is work ethic.

Chara is legendary on that account and has never let his positive attributes (size) become an excuse for laziness. Unlike Meyers.
 
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HedonisticAltruism

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Sep 26, 2008
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All joking aside but yes.

People keep projecting what they want players to be not what they are.

Chara might very well be the ultimate d man.

The big difference between him and Meyers is work ethic.

Chara is legendary on that account and has never let his positive attributes (size) become an excuse for laziness. Unlike Meyers.
I don't think it's necessarily laziness - it's also just how he thinks (or doesn't) think the game. His decisions are slow enough to get him in trouble, be it a break out pass or even clear. He also really doesn't have great positioning and makes poor pinches more often then not, so he just isn't seeing the ice (ironic given his vantage point) and predicting the play well.

He's 6'8" and a RHS. That's the reason he gets 6M instead of around 4M, which is far closer to his effective value, rather than rare attributes.
 

Frankie Blueberries

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Jan 27, 2016
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You know what? It’s okay. It’s okay that Benning was more successful than Gillis at one thing that’s both subject to chance and not entirely the responsibility of the GM anyway. And it’s okay that people know and accept this fact, and mention it to one another. You’re going to be okay.

You're right. During the time Gillis was drafting poorly here as GM, Benning was knocking it out of the park in Boston with his picks.
 

Hit the post

I have your gold medal Zippy!
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Hiding under WTG's bed...
I don't think it's necessarily laziness - it's also just how he thinks (or doesn't) think the game. His decisions are slow enough to get him in trouble, be it a break out pass or even clear. He also really doesn't have great positioning and makes poor pinches more often then not, so he just isn't seeing the ice (ironic given his vantage point) and predicting the play well.

He's 6'8" and a RHS. That's the reason he gets 6M instead of around 4M, which is far closer to his effective value, rather than rare attributes.
I think a couple 30+ point seasons had also an impact. Much like when Garrison hit 16 goals (and 30+ points) in his last season as a Bolt. Myers was never known (to my knowledge) as particularly great defensively prior to being a Canuck (and his play as a Canucks hasn't caused me to change my mind on that). Offense tends to carry a premium value in free agency.
 
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4Twenty

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You know what? It’s okay. It’s okay that Benning was more successful than Gillis at one thing that’s both subject to chance and not entirely the responsibility of the GM anyway. And it’s okay that people know and accept this fact, and mention it to one another. You’re going to be okay.
Edit* I’m @bandwagonesque ing you so you can actually have a hockey issue discussion with me instead of a post content discussion. I want to hear from you.
What is your opinion on disappointments in the 22-29 range vs that at 5-6 overall?

Also this goes out to everyone who reads my posts: how does team quality impact draft picks opportunities?

Does Adam Gaudette, Tryamkin, heck even Virtanen ever get looks during the greatest period of excellence in franchise history? I have my doubts.


Hoglander, Boeser, Mccann, Demko look like real draft hits and that’s strong. Stronger than Gillis’ record for sure. And I think these 3 get the look in a different era. The rest look like roster filler/space holders to me.

3 of these 4 were drafted while Gillis holdovers still had a large voice so it is interesting.

Benning needs to find a Hoglsnder/McCann on defence soon.


One other thing. Evaluating the Canucks drafting between regimes makes sense when comparing regimes. It means nothing when evaluating the current dude though. Where do the Canucks fall vs the rest of the leagues teams over the same period?

That’s an interesting subject.
 
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Izzy Goodenough

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Oct 11, 2020
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"Benning needs to find a Hoglsnder/McCann on defence soon."

Yup, He was there: Rasmus Andersson - Wikipedia

"He was drafted in the 2015 NHL Entry Draft by the Flames, 53rd overall."

53Rasmus Andersson(D)
23px-Flag_of_Sweden.svg.png
Sweden
Calgary Flames (from Vancouver)15Barrie Colts (OHL)
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

MS

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Also this goes out to everyone who reads my posts: how does team quality impact draft picks opportunities?

Does Adam Gaudette, Tryamkin, heck even Virtanen ever get looks during the greatest period of excellence in franchise history? I have my doubts.

This is such an underrated thing.

Like, if Sergei Shirokov was the exact identical player and in the Canucks system in the 2015-2018 period, he probably gets a couple years as an NHL regular to establish himself.

On the 2010-11 Canucks, not a chance.
 

Fatass

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Apr 17, 2017
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"Benning needs to find a Hoglsnder/McCann on defence soon."

Yup, He was there: Rasmus Andersson - Wikipedia

"He was drafted in the 2015 NHL Entry Draft by the Flames, 53rd overall."

53Rasmus Andersson(D)
23px-Flag_of_Sweden.svg.png
Sweden
Calgary Flames (from Vancouver)15Barrie Colts (OHL)
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Yes, and Romanov was picked right after Woo. But it’s a crap shoot later in the draft, which is why Benning should have been collecting second round picks, and not trading them away. Where we really lost out was missing on Jake and OJ. Two good young D there, and we are a much better team now.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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Uh oh, here comes the 89748927489284093218th demand for a "source". Probably tied up to giving Benning and Chiarelli credit for stuff Jeff Gorton did.

the thing is, while the omg boston's prospects argument is... let's just say, mistaken, when benning was in buffalo he did great. the team of scouts he headed from '99 to '06 built those really deep post-lockout buffalo teams that probably could have kept contending if not for that totally disastrous 2007 offseason.

when he left for boston, he left literally a #1 team with an entire scoring line of vanek, derek roy, and pominville all 23 or younger, plus clark macarthur, dan paille, and drew stafford coming up.

i don't know how much credit to give him for his time as a scout from '94 to '98, but here is their draft haul in his time there —


YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
2006246Jhonas EnrothGSodertalje (Sweden)NHLEntry15300002153506916.9092.84
2006257Mike WeberDWindsor (OHL)NHLEntry35194453-43437
20065147Alex BiegaDSalisbury (High-CT)NHLEntry22943539-23118
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
2005496Chris ButlerDSioux City (USHL)NHLEntry407147286-27187
20055142Nathan GerbeCU.S. National U-18 (USNTDP)NHLEntry4276287149-28196
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
2004113Drew StaffordRWNorth Dakota (WCHA)NHLEntry841196232428-58415
2004371Andrej SekeraDDukla Trencin Jr. (Slovak-Jr.)NHLEntry769471972443194
20046176Patrick KaletaRWPeterborough (OHL)NHLEntry348272754-18542
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
200315Thomas VanekLWMinnesota (WCHA)NHLEntry10293734167895547
2003374Clarke MacArthurLWMedicine Hat (WHL)NHLEntry552133171304-6343
20034106Jan HejdaDSlavia Praha ( )NHLEntry62725110135-7317
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
2002111Keith BallardDMinnesota (WCHA)NHLEntry60438137175-13612
2002120Daniel PailleLWGuelph (OHL)NHLEntry582858717215135
20028241Dennis WidemanDLondon (OHL)NHLEntry81599288387-72503
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
2001232Derek RoyCKitchener (OHL)NHLEntry73818933552429391
2001250Chris ThorburnRWNorth Bay (OHL)NHLEntry8015381134-40968
2001255Jason PominvilleRWShawinigan (QMJHL)NHLEntry106029343472744199
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
20007220Paul GaustadCPortland (WHL)NHLEntry7278914223110778
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
19995138Ryan MillerGSoo Indians (NAHL)NHLEntry7820121204878238728286.9152.63
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
1998118Dmitri KalininDTraktor Chelyabinsk (KHL)NHLEntry539361261622321
1998234Andrew PetersLWOshawa (OHL)NHLEntry229437-17650
19986164Ales KotalikRWCeske Budejovice Jr. (Czech-Jr.)NHLEntry542136148284-46348
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
1997248Henrik TallinderDAIK Solna (Sweden)NHLEntry678281141428378
1997369Maxim AfinogenovRWDynamo Moscow (Russia)NHLEntry651158237395-43486
19976156Brian CampbellDOttawa (OHL)NHLEntry10828741750463277
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
199617Erik RasmussenLW/CMinnesota (WCHA)NHLEntry54552761285305
1996227Cory SarichDSaskatoon (WHL)NHLEntry96921137158-91089
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
1995114Jay McKeeDNiagara Falls (OHL)NHLEntry8022110412555622
1995116Martin BironGBeauport (QMJHL)NHLEntry5080141408150823019152.9102.61
[TBODY] [/TBODY]


anyway, benningfolk, here is your correct argument.
 
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F A N

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This is such an underrated thing.

Like, if Sergei Shirokov was the exact identical player and in the Canucks system in the 2015-2018 period, he probably gets a couple years as an NHL regular to establish himself.

On the 2010-11 Canucks, not a chance.

Agreed. AV wasn't exactly forgiving of rookies who weren't with him when he was coaching the AHL. Grabner and Hodgson didn't exactly get the opportunities one would expect from a former 1st round pick. I mention his name often but I really would have liked to see how Kirill Koltsov would have developed if he was given a chance here. Maybe a Dmitri Orlov type player?
 

MS

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Agreed. AV wasn't exactly forgiving of rookies who weren't with him when he was coaching the AHL. Grabner and Hodgson didn't exactly get the opportunities one would expect from a former 1st round pick. I mention his name often but I really would have liked to see how Kirill Koltsov would have developed if he was given a chance here. Maybe a Dmitri Orlov type player?

We were so deep in that period it was really tough to give opportunities to prospect skill wingers. I don't know if any coach could have found room to give those guys a major look.

Koltsov ... yeah, he'll forever be a question mark. I think he probably would have been a 3rd pairing/PP QB guy, but had the potential to be quite an outstanding PP QB. I don't know that he 'wasn't given a chance' though. He played 1 year in Manitoba at age 20, which was totally fair as he had to adjust to NA ... and then the 04-05 lockout happened and he quit the AHL midway through that year to go back to Russia. Wasn't really a thing where we ever really had a chance to give him a quality look. If he stays and is still here in 2005-06, he almost certainly gets an extended opportunity given how terrible and injured our blueline was that year. Weird to think of alternate realities like that.
 
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4Twenty

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Dec 18, 2018
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the thing is, while the omg boston's prospects argument is... let's just say, mistaken, when benning was in buffalo he did great. the team of scouts he headed from '99 to '06 built those really deep post-lockout buffalo teams that probably could have kept contending if not for that totally disastrous 2007 offseason.

when he left for boston, he left literally a #1 team with an entire scoring line of vanek, derek roy, and pominville all 23 or younger, plus clark macarthur, dan paille, and drew stafford coming up.

i don't know how much credit to give him for his time as a scout from '94 to '98, but here is their draft haul in his time there —


YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
2006246Jhonas EnrothGSodertalje (Sweden)NHLEntry15300002153506916.9092.84
2006257Mike WeberDWindsor (OHL)NHLEntry35194453-43437
20065147Alex BiegaDSalisbury (High-CT)NHLEntry22943539-23118
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
2005496Chris ButlerDSioux City (USHL)NHLEntry407147286-27187
20055142Nathan GerbeCU.S. National U-18 (USNTDP)NHLEntry4276287149-28196
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
2004113Drew StaffordRWNorth Dakota (WCHA)NHLEntry841196232428-58415
2004371Andrej SekeraDDukla Trencin Jr. (Slovak-Jr.)NHLEntry769471972443194
20046176Patrick KaletaRWPeterborough (OHL)NHLEntry348272754-18542
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
200315Thomas VanekLWMinnesota (WCHA)NHLEntry10293734167895547
2003374Clarke MacArthurLWMedicine Hat (WHL)NHLEntry552133171304-6343
20034106Jan HejdaDSlavia Praha ( )NHLEntry62725110135-7317
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
2002111Keith BallardDMinnesota (WCHA)NHLEntry60438137175-13612
2002120Daniel PailleLWGuelph (OHL)NHLEntry582858717215135
20028241Dennis WidemanDLondon (OHL)NHLEntry81599288387-72503
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
2001232Derek RoyCKitchener (OHL)NHLEntry73818933552429391
2001250Chris ThorburnRWNorth Bay (OHL)NHLEntry8015381134-40968
2001255Jason PominvilleRWShawinigan (QMJHL)NHLEntry106029343472744199
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
20007220Paul GaustadCPortland (WHL)NHLEntry7278914223110778
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
19995138Ryan MillerGSoo Indians (NAHL)NHLEntry7820121204878238728286.9152.63
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
1998118Dmitri KalininDTraktor Chelyabinsk (KHL)NHLEntry539361261622321
1998234Andrew PetersLWOshawa (OHL)NHLEntry229437-17650
19986164Ales KotalikRWCeske Budejovice Jr. (Czech-Jr.)NHLEntry542136148284-46348
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
1997248Henrik TallinderDAIK Solna (Sweden)NHLEntry678281141428378
1997369Maxim AfinogenovRWDynamo Moscow (Russia)NHLEntry651158237395-43486
19976156Brian CampbellDOttawa (OHL)NHLEntry10828741750463277
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
199617Erik RasmussenLW/CMinnesota (WCHA)NHLEntry54552761285305
1996227Cory SarichDSaskatoon (WHL)NHLEntry96921137158-91089
YearRd.OverallPlayerPosAmateur TeamLgDraftGPGAPTS+/-PIMGPWLT/OSV%GAA
1995114Jay McKeeDNiagara Falls (OHL)NHLEntry8022110412555622
1995116Martin BironGBeauport (QMJHL)NHLEntry5080141408150823019152.9102.61
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

anyway, benningfolk, here is your correct argument.
But I thought head scouts are overrated ?

This is a quality hit list of quality players. I believe MS has touched on this before I wish it were easier to search for old posts.
 

F A N

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
18,630
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We were so deep in that period it was really tough to give opportunities to prospect skill wingers. I don't know if any coach could have found room to give those guys a major look.

Koltsov ... yeah, he'll forever be a question mark. I think he probably would have been a 3rd pairing/PP QB guy, but had the potential to be quite an outstanding PP QB. I don't know that he 'wasn't given a chance' though. He played 1 year in Manitoba at age 20, which was totally fair as he had to adjust to NA ... and then the 04-05 lockout happened and he quit the AHL midway through that year to go back to Russia. Wasn't really a thing where we ever really had a chance to give him a quality look. If he stays and is still here in 2005-06, he almost certainly gets an extended opportunity given how terrible and injured our blueline was that year. Weird to think of alternate realities like that.

I'm not so sure that we were that deep. We were leaving room to sign Schaefer and acquire Dalpe. Tambellini got an extended look (and played well). Volpatti, Bolduc, and Desbiens got multiple looks during that period. Heck, even Jonas Andersson (I have no recollection of him) played 4 games when Shirokov (who was leading the Moose in scoring) got 2.

I don't think any coach in AV's league leading position would have a problem giving Shirokov a look over Jonas Andersson.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,367
83,459
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I'm not so sure that we were that deep. We were leaving room to sign Schaefer and acquire Dalpe. Tambellini got an extended look (and played well). Volpatti, Bolduc, and Desbiens got multiple looks during that period. Heck, even Jonas Andersson (I have no recollection of him) played 4 games when Shirokov (who was leading the Moose in scoring) got 2.

I don't think any coach in AV's league leading position would have a problem giving Shirokov a look over Jonas Andersson.

We had a rotation of crap go through our 4th line but 4th lines at that point were considered to be 'energy lines' which provided physical play and toughness, and not the spot to stick a highly skilled rookie Russian forward. Vigneault was hardly alone in that line of thinking circa 2010.

The 10-11 Canucks had Daniel/Samuelsson/Burrows/Raymond/Torres/Hansen as a set group of 6 top-9 wingers who were all healthy most of the year, plus Higgins added at the deadline, plus Jeff Tambellini looking for opportunities ahead of all the minor-league guys. Those guys were dominating the league, and you aren't bumping them down the roster and sticking one of them on the 4th line so you can give Shirokov a look.
 

likash

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Apr 17, 2019
1,308
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How about we don't trade him to the Flames. We already gifted them Marky and Tanev.
We should try to trade him for some help on defence. Keep him out of Canada. If you trade him in the division you can bet that he will be motivated every time he plays the Canucks. I don't want him to paste Petey and Hughes into the boards.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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i think for shiro and grabner, it was basically understood that there's a top six wing job up for grabs. if you can steal raymond's job, it's yours. but you're not going to get the spot that hansen ended up getting.

with shiro, that made sense. i feel like AV made a miscalculation on grabner though, and he probably was groomed wrong given where our team was in the late 2000s. with his speed and decent size he could have been a great fourth liner on the 2011 team instead of as a top six or bust scorer.
 
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