Post-Game Talk: Make it so

[guymez]

He couldn’t have played all 3 goals any worse. All turn into tap ins cause he can’t react/move

He’s a pylon

Absolute nonsense. If this team thinks that leaving the goalie high and dry and then critiquing how he deals with that is the answer then they deserve to miss the playoffs.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Its easy though to see a team that is shellshocked and in panic when they are again down 4-0 due to the shittiest goaltending in the league.

The 5th goal was plain ugly coverage, sure it was, but it comes not in isolation, it comes from a team so stoned by GA that they've stopped doing even basic defending at times. Its freeze panic at times that is going on. It shouldn't be, but this team can defend better than this and have. But the panic is every day now due to the standings and due to how much of the clubs record has been a result of terrible goaltending.

Both are true. Goaltending is a massive sinkhole and this team's low decision making, high risk bad choices and disjointed team defending are both tire fires. They are interdependent functions. The perceived final big piece, a starting goaltender has absolutely cratered in the job to give this team at minimum league average goaltending. I've never seen a mid-season sabbatical ever for an NHL player to reset mentally, technical and equipment but that's what they got with Campbell. However the team defense this season has been incapable of rudimentary reads and basic defending common sense.

 

[K1984]

Dummies Nurse and Bouchard both played more minutes than 97/29 and were only -1, Hyman played more minutes and didn’t post as bad of results. RNH played 40 seconds less and didn’t post as bad of results. Ekholm played more minutes and didn’t post as bad of results.

When 97/29 are on the ice the game plan becomes generating scoring chances above all else, blowing the zone, making poorly supported zone exits, pinching to keep the play alive in the offensive zone with zero support from forwards. This is how Connor and Leon want to play.

Although score effects certainly had something to do with the third, it is no coincidence in my mind that we started actually building shift by shift momentum the moment they were split. Just like in the Seattle game here when we cratered in the second period when they randomly were put together, only to recover in the third when they are apart.

When they play together they both instantly go into all star mode looking for quick breaks at the expense of literally any form of defensive commitment. When they are apart they both seem to actually play the position and work back in their end properly.

I won't pin this on Knoblauch yet because he is new (this was a sticking point for me with Woodcroft because he saw enough to know better by the end). I will however blame it on the organization. How at this point has nobody in management cautioned Knoblauch that they f***ing stink when playing together to the detriment of the entire team? Or maybe everyone is still pretending that playing them together is a "nuclear option" that everyone still pretends is a net positive.

Extremely, extremely frustrating to see how those two have been managed for basically the entire year.

For a number of reasons:

1) Obviously you can't switch out an entire D core but you can find a goalie to salve some ills.

2) Team buy in is commensurate with the type of goaltending they are getting. Belief starts in goal. Teams see saves being made it makes them all better. Oilers in 97,98 etc overperformed and overachieved due specificically to goaltending. The D was rotten, that club gave up scoring chances like confetti, but Cujo bailed them out all the time helping them to win games with the meager run support that team would get.

3)A lot of cover situations are solved by goalies. For instance at least 2 goals last night being a result of Skinner having zero net front presence. Yes, sometimes a goalie has to be another defender. Again the goalie at the other end made 3 critical plays with his stick breaking up front of goal chances. He saved either one or two goals against doing that. Certain goalies like Mike Smith or Adin Hill ARE the last line of defense. Skinner isn't, he's very passive in that regard. Anything around his net that goes on, goes on, he just watches.

4)Rebound control. So many pucks bounce off Skinner and hit ice. He even has trouble corralling those pucks. I see other team goalies and they are like vacuums sucking up any puck, they don't give up tons of rebounds which invariably make any D look far worse because those are danger pucks in play.

Yes, but when the entire team (not just d core, team) can't play anything even remotely resembling NHL quality defensive structure whichever goalie comes in is irrelevant short of picking up a top 5 goalie in the league which won't happen.

I get it, you're still on the Skinner crusade because you can't drop the love affair with Campbell. At this point to pin all or most ills squarely on goaltending is putting your head in the sand. It is very obviously a multi pronged issue.

 

[Drivesaitl]

No, it is not.

They lost Kostin, Bjugstad and Yamamoto.

They gained a broken down Brown, Gagner, and Ernie.

Connor Brown can also be considered subtraction by addition. Hard to conclude anything but that the team is worse any time he's on the ice.

But they also lost a legendary PP and there was no way the PP was going to be as prolific two years running. People discount how many games we were winning just on that PP. It was being the margin of victory so many nights.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Although score effects certainly had something to do with the third, it is no coincidence in my mind that we started actually building shift by shift momentum the moment they were split. Just like in the Seattle game here when we cratered in the second period when they randomly were put together, only to recover in the third when they are apart.

When they play together they both instantly go into all star mode looking for quick breaks at the expense of literally any form of defensive commitment. When they are apart they both seem to actually play the position and work back in their end properly.

I won't pin this on Knoblauch yet because he is new (this was a sticking point for me with Woodcroft because he saw enough to know better by the end). I will however blame it on the organization. How at this point has nobody in management cautioned Knoblauch that they f***ing stink when playing together to the detriment of the entire team? Or maybe everyone is still pretending that playing them together is a "nuclear option" that everyone still pretends is a net positive.

Extremely, extremely frustrating to see how those two have been managed for basically the entire year.



Yes, but when the entire team (not just d core, team) can't play anything even remotely resembling NHL quality defensive structure whichever goalie comes in is irrelevant.

I get it, you're still on the Skinner crusade because you can't drop the love affair with Campbell. At this point to pin all or most ills squarely on goaltending is putting your head in the sand. It is very obviously a multi pronged issue.

I don't love either goalie. You know what. I made the effort to answer your question. No need for dismissive reply. Being that I specifically outlined the points and again took the effort to do that. If you disagree with any of it than be specific.

 

[GMofOilers]

Absolute nonsense. If this team thinks that leaving the goalie high and dry and then critiquing how he deals with that is the answer then they deserve to miss the playoffs.

I have watched the last 2 teams leave their goalie out to dry several times and guess what, they made saves. That’s what goalies are paid to do.

I know everyone wants us to only make 1 or 2 mistakes a game but that won’t happen, never ever. A team is going to get 5 to 10 high quality chances every game. When you goalie saves 0 then they score more then opposing team

 

[guymez]

Both are true. Goaltending is a massive sinkhole and this team's low decision making, high risk bad choices and disjointed team defending are both tire fires. They are interdependent functions. The perceived final big piece, a starting goaltender has absolutely cratered in the job to give this team at minimum league average goaltending. I've never seen a mid-season sabbatical ever for an NHL player to reset mentally, technical and equipment but that's what they got with Campbell. However the team defense this season has been incapable of rudimentary reads and basic defending common sense.

A strong argument could be made that the goalies on this team become shell shocked. They get virtually no defensive support game in and game out and yet they are expected to rise above all that and just perform.
For a 2nd year goalie trying to find his way like Skinner its untenable.

 

[Soundwave]

A strong argument could be made that the goalies on this team become shell shocked. They get virtually no defensive support game in and game out and yet they are expected to rise above all that and just perform.
For a 2nd year goalie trying to find his way like Skinner its untenable.

A strong arguement can be made that the goalie's are simply not that good either.

Were we playing a trap and mistake free hockey under Mike Smith? No. We played firewagon hockey in front of him too. The difference is his save percentage was above .900 every year and in both playoffs.

Skinner and Campbell's is not.

 

[K1984]

I don't love either goalie. You know what. I made the effort to answer your question. No need for dismissive reply. Being that I specifically outlined the points and again took the effort to do that. If you disagree with any of it than be specific.

I disagree with all of it because it's pretty clear that the team is not able to play anything close to base level NHL defensive structure so far in the season making it extremely difficult for even the best goalies to post a .900+ sv%.

Skinner sucks this year, but so does the defense. An upgrade would probably produce moderately improved results at best if that is the solution alone.

 

[guymez]

I have watched the last 2 teams leave their goalie out to dry several times and guess what, they made saves. That’s what goalies are paid to do.

I know everyone wants us to only make 1 or 2 mistakes a game but that won’t happen, never ever. A team is going to get 5 to 10 high quality chances every game. When you goalie saves 0 then they score more then opposing team

The Oilers hang their golaies out to dry all game every game. Its not just periodic breakdowns.
The defence on this team is a joke.
Its unprecedented and to think that its just overlooked like it doesnt matter is mind boggling.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Dummies Nurse and Bouchard both played more minutes than 97/29 and were only -1, Hyman played more minutes and didn’t post as bad of results. RNH played 40 seconds less and didn’t post as bad of results. Ekholm played more minutes and didn’t post as bad of results.

When 97/29 are on the ice the game plan becomes generating scoring chances above all else, blowing the zone, making poorly supported zone exits, pinching to keep the play alive in the offensive zone with zero support from forwards. This is how Connor and Leon want to play.

By your own admission its the one game you've watched this season and you're concluding all this from what was a very uncharacteristic game in which the team was down 4 goals only 14mins into the game.

At that point I wouldn't be expecting superstars to protect the 4 goal deficit, I would expect them to cheat by then trying to get the scoreline back. To the teams credit they mostly did, and only some bad luck and decent goaltending (which we rarely get) stopped them from getting a tie.

 

[guymez]

I disagree with all of it because it's pretty clear that the team is not able to play anything close to base level NHL defensive structure so far in the season making it extremely difficult for even the best goalies to post a .900+ sv%.

Exactly.

 

[Soundwave]

The goalie's suck. Skinner doesn't have high end talent or ability, his lateral movement is crap, his athleticism is below average for a starter. He has the toolset of a back up goalie. On any 2-on-1, 80% of the net will be wide open, because this guy cannot move laterally, so an auto-goal.

Campbell has better tools, better athleticism, but he has shit for brains and can't handle any pressure whatsoever, his positioning is also suspect once his he gets into his head.

Oh and both of them play like midgets in net, making themselves small.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I disagree with all of it because it's pretty clear that the team is not able to play anything close to base level NHL defensive structure so far in the season making it extremely difficult for even the best goalies to post a .900+ sv%.

Well how do you know that? We havent' had a best goalie in ages. Argument could be made the best one McDrai have ever had was Talbot. Thats an indictment on org.

The bolded is your theory, it isn't factual. I bet a decent goalie could come in here and post + .900 average immediately.

 

[guymez]

By your own admission its the one game you've watched this season and you're concluding all this from what was a very uncharacteristic game in which the team was down 4 goals only 14mins into the game.

At that point I wouldn't be expecting superstars to protect the 4 goal deficit, I would expect them to cheat by then trying to get the scoreline back. To the teams credit they mostly did, and only some bad luck and decent goaltending (which we rarely get) stopped them from getting a tie.

This team cheats all the time.
When they are up by a goal or down by 2-3 goals.
Its doesnt matter to them and thats part of the problem.

What we saw in the last game wasnt some one off. Nothing uncharacteristic at all.

 

[GMofOilers]

The Oilers hang their golaies out to dry all game every game. Its not just periodic breakdowns.
The defence on this team is a joke.
Its unprecedented and to think that its just overlooked like it doesnt matter is mind boggling.

Every team does man, watch other teams, goals are scored on mistakes every game, every night, every team in the NHL. Every single goal is scored on mistakes.

Goalies are there to make saves

 

[Drivesaitl]

I have watched the last 2 teams leave their goalie out to dry several times and guess what, they made saves. That’s what goalies are paid to do.

I know everyone wants us to only make 1 or 2 mistakes a game but that won’t happen, never ever. A team is going to get 5 to 10 high quality chances every game. When you goalie saves 0 then they score more then opposing team

Exactly!

 

[guymez]

Well how do you know that? We havent' had a best goalie in ages. Argument could be made the best one McDrai have ever had was Talbot. Thats an indictment on org.

The bolded is your theory, it isn't factual. I bet a decent goalie could come in here and post + .900 average immediately.

So you are contending that the team doesnt have to play defence until they get a better goalie?

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I have watched the last 2 teams leave their goalie out to dry several times and guess what, they made saves. That’s what goalies are paid to do.

I know everyone wants us to only make 1 or 2 mistakes a game but that won’t happen, never ever. A team is going to get 5 to 10 high quality chances every game. When you goalie saves 0 then they score more then opposing team

The Canes got 18 scoring chances.... in the first period.

 

[nally]

That but moreso... f*** the players.

Blame Holland all you want but you can't tell me that this roster isn't massively underachieving under two different coaches. That's on the players

This is how I'm thinking to. Though, man...our defenseman are hopeless. Kulak and Nurse are just awful and that's not even talking about Ceci and Bouchard.

Other teams find ways to win with FAR less talent

Stingy defensive system play and absolute defined roles would really help this team

 

[Soundwave]

This is a save Skinner can't make. Goaltending talent, athleticism is a thing every bit as much as McDavid having talent, athleticism (explosive skating) that say a Nugent Hopkins doesn't have.

Stuart Skinner would never make a save like this:



Look at how Roloson is reading the play and anticipating the pass while making an incredible left to right push off to get over. That is TALENT. That's not random luck.

 

[K1984]

Well how do you know that? We havent' had a best goalie in ages. Argument could be made the best one McDrai have ever had was Talbot. Thats an indictment on org.

The bolded is your theory, it isn't factual. I bet a decent goalie could come in here and post + .900 average immediately.

It's a pretty educated conclusion based on the clear as day evidence that we give up clean slot chances and rush chances at a ridiculous clip.

Hasek might do ok under those conditions, Montembault, Allen, Blackwood, Primeau, whatever other C level upgrade that is available won't. None of those guys are materially better or worse than Skinner. All of them have had up and down points in their career, just like Skinner. Difference is none of them have had to play in front of whatever this is.

 

[guymez]

Every team does man, watch other teams, goals are scored on mistakes every game, every night, every team in the NHL. Every single goal is scored on mistakes.

Goalies are there to make saves

I watch a lot of games.
This team has set a new low for team defence.
Its embarrassing.

To suggest that the goaltending needs to be better BEFORE they improve the defence doesnt make sense. If there is one thing the team has control over its putting in the effort to play defense. This team doesnt do that.

An all star goalie doesnt fix this defensive shit show.
He may cover it up for a while (just like McDavids and Draisaitls offence has in past seasons) but it doesnt solve the problem.

 

[Drivesaitl]

This team cheats all the time.
When they are up by a goal or down by 2-3 goals.
Its doesnt matter to them and thats part of the problem.

What we saw in the last game wasnt some one off. Nothing uncharacteristic at all.

Here we have something new to discuss. Yes, positionally at times the team could be in better man back positions. But as others have pointed out their whole careers here McDrai have been about production. For years the team wasn't even capable of gaining a playoff spot with the brutal support roster they had. So that the players have been trained to do this and I did feel that the team was trained to score tons and focus primarly on that last season.

The best defensive play of this team was under Tippett. Thats when most Drai playing D traction took place. It hasn't as much since.

I will note that several times last night McD was a demon on the backcheck. He was trying to do anything humanly possible to get a result. you think he doesn't care about winning? Just asking.

In anycase an area of agreement for us would be the team needs to be more present in NZ without the puck. They're losing that area of ice at times.

It's a pretty educated conclusion based on the clear as day evidence that we give up clean slot chances and rush chances at a ridiculous clip.

Hasek might do ok under those conditions, Montembault, Allen, Blackwood, Primeau, whatever other C level upgrade that is available won't. None of those guys are materially better or worse than Skinner. All of them have had up and down points in their career, just like Skinner. Difference is none of them have had to play in front of whatever this is.

Confusing reply. So it is possible for a goalie to come in here and resurrect. Right? Thats what I've been saying.

I disagree though in that any competent goalie could come in here and reset.

So you are contending that the team doesnt have to play defence until they get a better goalie?

No.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

By your own admission its the one game you've watched this season and you're concluding all this from what was a very uncharacteristic game in which the team was down 4 goals only 14mins into the game.

At that point I wouldn't be expecting superstars to protect the 4 goal deficit, I would expect them to cheat by then trying to get the scoreline back. To the teams credit they mostly did, and only some bad luck and decent goaltending (which we rarely get) stopped them from getting a tie.

The problem is they aren’t just cheating when we’re down by 4, they do it when we’re tied, they do it when we’re up, they do it literally every time they touch the ice and it’s been like that going back seasons. I guess that game was uncharacteristic in the fact they allowed 4 goals up front instead of over the course of the game or after building a lead.

I’m sorry but the Oilers never had a hope of getting back to tied, Carolina isn’t the type of team that’s going to allow 4 goals unanswered, they took pity and eased of with a very comfortable lead but they absolutely could of put their foot back on the gas if the Oilers happened to get within one.

My point is that if you want your team to play sound, structured hockey, it has to start with your leaders and best players.