Sportsnet: MacArthur sounds off on former coach Carlyle

[Drugstorecowboi]

It still remains to be seen, Carlyle's been at the helm for 18/55/3 games now and we must still be top 3 in turnovers and we look much more like the Ron Wilson "sloppy/outscore your problems" teams than anything new, only with improving personnel and better goaltending, which is thanks to Burke and Nonis.
So everybody is willing to turn on the hatefest toward every player Randy dislikes so soon, before we've actually won anything.

I disagree with your statement. We are adjusting to his system and the boys are buying in. It's not like we can change the way we play over night. It takes awhile and you have to keep adding pieces to the team. The team has a load of confidence with Bernier in goal and throughout this season we will see the team improve in what you are talking about. But talking about one of the youngest teams in the league - and expecting them not to be turning over the puck - that's a little insane. Buying into the system is the first step - that started LAST year which was a shortened season.

They don't look like a Ron Wilson team.
I disliked Grabo under Wilson and Carlyle.
I thought MacArthur had over inflated stats and was disappointed when we signed him.

 

[Tak7]

People are blowing this thing way out of proportion.

A player who couldn't make a consistent impact on a team, leading the team to not want him anymore, is unhappy? Big deal.

Players who didn't like Carlyle that we know of;
-MacArthur
-Grabovski

Players who Carlyle has been good to, and will appreciate what he's done for them;
-Nazem Kadri (didn't get a whif under Wilson)
-Mark Fraser (got a big chance last season. Took it)
-Cody Franson (didn't get a whif under Wilson)
-JvR (treated like a proper top 6 forward)
-Mike Kostka (got a chance)
-James Reimer (RC really managed expectations; didn't want him WINNING us games, but giving us a chance - that confidence was big)

I'm sure there are other names that I can't think of off the top of my head. Interesting how most people in this thread are talking about the top 2 names, but no one is talking about the second list.

There's still a perception about Carlyle out there, but anyone who followed/covered him in Anaheim will probably tell you that he's a VERY different coach.

I remember so many people saying "the real Carlyle will come out eventually". It still hasn't come out. It won't. This is the new Carlyle. He's adjusting.

 

[hotpaws]

A player who couldn't make a consistent impact on a team, leading the team to not want him anymore, is unhappy? Big deal.

This .

I have no problem with Mac and Grabo being unhappy with RC , in fact i'd expect them too regardless of whether they made it public .

This being said , RC isn't here to be the players buddies and play them how much and with who they want . A coach's job is to win and so far the teams performed much better with him in charge .

 

[Tak7]

This .

I have no problem with Mac and Grabo being unhappy with RC , in fact i'd expect them too regardless of whether they made it public .

This being said , RC isn't here to be the players buddies and play them how much and with who they want . A coach's job is to win and so far the teams performed much better with him in charge .

Sir Alex Ferguson, one of the greatest coaches of all time, in ANY sport, last week said:

"I never wanted to be loved. I always wanted to be respected. If players didn't love you, it wasn't a big deal. But they need to respect you".

 

[happyaccident]

I disagree with your statement. We are adjusting to his system and the boys are buying in. It's not like we can change the way we play over night. It takes awhile and you have to keep adding pieces to the team. The team has a load of confidence with Bernier in goal and throughout this season we will see the team improve in what you are talking about. But talking about one of the youngest teams in the league - and expecting them not to be turning over the puck - that's a little insane. Buying into the system is the first step - that started LAST year which was a shortened season.

They don't look like a Ron Wilson team.
I disliked Grabo under Wilson and Carlyle.
I thought MacArthur had over inflated stats and was disappointed when we signed him.

When Ken Hitchcock took over the Blues in 2011/12, they were a 500 team and he went 43-11-15 with them that year and won the Jack Adams. Projected to 82 games, their point total last year would have been 104. And they're off to another big start, now that's a defensive powerhouse.
Meanwhile, we're still playing a very entertaining form of pond hockey, I'm still waiting to see any trace evidence of this great defensive system. Maybe his great defensive system was called Pronger/Niedermayer/Beauchemin/Pahlsson

 

[bunjay]

THere are no impartial observers who think the Leafs now have a solid defensive system. Only Leafs homers. Everyone else knows our defense is about as porous as it ever was. It was last year, it is again so far this year.

THe Leafs are still very much playing the "run and gun" game that Wilson got criticized for. They are still scoring almost exclusively off the rush at even strength. They still have no extended posession. They still give up several odd-man rushes per game, and NOT late in games down by one when it's understandable. They still make an unusual number of turnovers in their own zone and they still fail to make simple breakouts with any regularity. Still taking too many penalties.

The only defensive "system" you can argue is working is the PK. Even strength so far is well below average for Carlyle, as it was under Wilson. What's obviously improved is goaltending and forward depth, for which the credit does not belong to the coach.

 

[diceman934]

When Ken Hitchcock took over the Blues in 2011/12, they were a 500 team and he went 43-11-15 with them that year and won the Jack Adams. Projected to 82 games, their point total last year would have been 104. And they're off to another big start, now that's a defensive powerhouse.
Meanwhile, we're still playing a very entertaining form of pond hockey, I'm still waiting to see any trace evidence of this great defensive system. Maybe his great defensive system was called Pronger/Niedermayer/Beauchemin/Pahlsson

So are you saying that the Leafs were the same as the Blues and that Carlyle should have been able to come in and turn us into a instant contender?

Carlyle has done as advertised....he started by cutting dead weight something that the Blues did not have....Komi, Connelly, Armstrong, Lombardi, Grabo, C Mac, Rosehill, Steckle....etc

Pond hockey.....can you tell me just what d zone system we are playing and describe the responsibilities of the players under the system.

We are well on the way to being a better team defensively.....it will become more noticeable as the year goes on.

 

[hotpaws]

When Ken Hitchcock took over the Blues in 2011/12, they were a 500 team and he went 43-11-15 with them that year and won the Jack Adams. Projected to 82 games, their point total last year would have been 104. And they're off to another big start, now that's a defensive powerhouse.
Meanwhile, we're still playing a very entertaining form of pond hockey, I'm still waiting to see any trace evidence of this great defensive system. Maybe his great defensive system was called Pronger/Niedermayer/Beauchemin/Pahlsson

Hitch did a great job but he was also the right coach for the type of team that was in place .

RC took over a very flawed team and led us to the playoffs . While we still have flaws Nonis/RC are working hard on building a hard working balanced team . We'll see if he can get the right pieces but a coach can only work with the players he has and RC has done a solid job so far .

 

[happyaccident]

So are you saying that the Leafs were the same as the Blues and that Carlyle should have been able to come in and turn us into a instant contender?

Carlyle has done as advertised....he started by cutting dead weight something that the Blues did not have....Komi, Connelly, Armstrong, Lombardi, Grabo, C Mac, Rosehill, Steckle....etc

Pond hockey.....can you tell me just what d zone system we are playing and describe the responsibilities of the players under the system.

We are well on the way to being a better team defensively.....it will become more noticeable as the year goes on.

I don't know what d system we're playing. Hang on to the puck too long then pass it to the other team? Play your best dman to the point of exhaustion?
Will it become more noticeable as the year goes on? Good, we can all celebrate then. Once it actually happens.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

I don't know what d system we're playing. Hang on to the puck too long then pass it to the other team? Play your best dman to the point of exhaustion?
Will it become more noticeable as the year goes on? Good, we can all celebrate then. Once it actually happens.

I tend to agree more with you in this argument...the D sucked under Wilson but so did the goaltending. The biggest difference is that under Carlyle, the Leafs have had pretty solid and consistent goaltending. Even better with Bernier. Its not a slight against Carlyle and dare I say it....Wilson..maybe the players simply aren't good enough to execute the coaches systems. I don't think the Leafs have a great mix of D..Mark Fraser is the only real tough D they have and a bunch of young offensively gifted guys mixed with Gunnarsson who is a middling kind of D..probably 4 or 5 on a good D and of course the captain....many threads on this guy..lol.

 

[happyaccident]

Hitch did a great job but he was also the right coach for the type of team that was in place .

RC took over a very flawed team and led us to the playoffs . While we still have flaws Nonis/RC are working hard on building a hard working balanced team . We'll see if he can get the right pieces but a coach can only work with the players he has and RC has done a solid job so far .

The horribad defensive play we see now is all the fault of an inadequate roster. Look at the rosters this team had during the early Wilson/Burke years. If you dare.
So Wilson was a horrible defensive coach and Randy is a defensive genius. Even though he's working with much better talent and goaltending.
Randy's popularity is all cult of personality. If he accomplishes something, great, but until then.

 

[diceman934]

I tend to agree more with you in this argument...the D sucked under Wilson but so did the goaltending. The biggest difference is that under Carlyle, the Leafs have had pretty solid and consistent goaltending. Even better with Bernier. Its not a slight against Carlyle and dare I say it....Wilson..maybe the players simply aren't good enough to execute the coaches systems. I don't think the Leafs have a great mix of D..Mark Fraser is the only real tough D they have and a bunch of young offensively gifted guys mixed with Gunnarsson who is a middling kind of D..probably 4 or 5 on a good D and of course the captain....many threads on this guy..lol.

Last year we used Holtzer, Kostka and later O'Byrne on D.....We are vastly better this year as far as ability and skill goes, it now is a matter of playing within the system as a 5 man unit as the system Carlyle is playing is more dependent on all 5 men then other teams.

Our goaltending was better last year as a result of limiting quality scoring chances....as that is what the D zone system is designed to do. Time will tell just how Carlyle does this year with a more skilled group of D man.

 

[hotpaws]

The horribad defensive play we see now is all the fault of an inadequate roster. Look at the rosters this team had during the early Wilson/Burke years. If you dare.
So Wilson was a horrible defensive coach and Randy is a defensive genius. Even though he's working with much better talent and goaltending.
Randy's popularity is all cult of personality. If he accomplishes something, great, but until then.

What better defensive D talent is he working with ?

Rielly - a 19 yr old rookie
Ranger - hasn't played in the league in 4 years
Fraser - a career ahl'er
Franson - a player Wilson had very lttle use for
Gards - talented but thinks rover is a position

Wilson started with a better group of defensive D and turned the unit to crap .

Beau went from a solid D to crap and then had a hell of a season when he was traded

Komi was a decent stay at home D before Wilson got a hold of him

Schenn never progressed under Wilson

 

[Inconceivable]

The horribad defensive play we see now is all the fault of an inadequate roster. Look at the rosters this team had during the early Wilson/Burke years. If you dare.
So Wilson was a horrible defensive coach and Randy is a defensive genius. Even though he's working with much better talent and goaltending.
Randy's popularity is all cult of personality. If he accomplishes something, great, but until then.

I don't know if Carlyle is a defensive genius, but in my opinion the biggest asset Carlyle has over Wilson is his ability to make his players play their hardest and develop a pack mentality. With the right personnel he can squeeze out that extra bit of effort from the team to get the job done. Wilson did not do this, and that's why he was a loser.

Now about Grabo and Mac, Carlyle's team isn't suited for players who:
1. Don't give 100% effort every game.
2. Are small.
3. Will not accept their assigned role.
4. Do not like internal competition for roster spots.

They both fit at least one of the criteria on this list, and that's why they were driven out of town. There is nothing bad about it.

 

[Guy Boucher]

He can complain all he wants about Carlyle but I remember Wilson throwing him on the 4th line a bunch of times too.

He gets disinterested. He loses a ton of board battles. That is, unless he's playing with an edge. He played with an edge when he first signed on that 1 year "prove it" deal.

Since then, only sparingly.

 

[Daisy Jane]

He can complain all he wants about Carlyle but I remember Wilson throwing him on the 4th line a bunch of times too.

He gets disinterested. He loses a ton of board battles. That is, unless he's playing with an edge. He played with an edge when he first signed on that 1 year "prove it" deal.

Since then, only sparingly.

maybe wilson never told him that he was making mistakes? (shrug)
it sounds to me that's what got the bug up his butt.

 

[Ari91]

maybe wilson never told him that he was making mistakes? (shrug)
it sounds to me that's what got the bug up his butt.

I remember Wilson specifically mentioning Mac as a player who went to him for advice on what he needs to work on and Grabo did the same and would spend more time practising on the ice than any other player. It seems like players that took it upon themselves to approach Wilson are the guys who had better relationships with him. Interestingly enough, Mac would ask Wilson about what he needs to improve on and found that supportive while he took offense to Carlyle telling him what he needs to improve on. It actually makes a lot of sense as Mac refers to not wanting to hear your mistakes all the time. He feels more comfortable being the one to recognize his weaknesses and seek advice rather than someone else recognizing his weaknesses and offering that advice.

On the flip side, Wilson's approach was the exact reason why Franson and Kadri didn't like him. They didn't like their coach making decisions about scratching them in games or decreasing their ice time without offering any explanations as to why. Both guys have said they preferred Carlyle's honest approach because at least it gives them the opportunity to work on whatever area of their game needs improvement.

Frankly, they're professional athletes and I don't really sympathize with a player who takes issue with a coach who is doing his job. I can understand Mac's position if Carlyle is being demeaning and insulting but I have no reason to believe that that's how Carlyle addresses his players.

 

[Kingstonian84*]

I disagree with your statement. We are adjusting to his system and the boys are buying in. It's not like we can change the way we play over night. It takes awhile and you have to keep adding pieces to the team. The team has a load of confidence with Bernier in goal and throughout this season we will see the team improve in what you are talking about. But talking about one of the youngest teams in the league - and expecting them not to be turning over the puck - that's a little insane. Buying into the system is the first step - that started LAST year which was a shortened season.

I have noticed several key differences with the players under Carlyle's system vs under Wilson:

Under Wilsons's regime it was uptempo, forwards were expected to criss coss with the defence and then rush it up the ice and fire shots on net, also both defencmen were expected to jump up at the same time. I guess what I'm trying to say is Wilson liked his team to create a lot of offensive zone pressure, but it also lead to a lot of turnovers which lead to a lot of 3on2's and 2 on'1s and due to poor goaltending very often those turnovers lead to goals. There was very little chip n chase under his regime, no cycling to keep possession alive in the other teams end, just flat out use the speed and charge at the opposition. Wilson's idea of defense was to have everyone back (which he got right) but everyone was passive either waiting for the other team to shoot in an attempts to make a block or have the team come to them and hit them.

With Carlyle he's about intelligence and you don't see as many uptempo/high risk plays, instead the forward carries it in dumps in the corner and the others dive in to forecheck. You don't see the defense jump up as much in the rush either, not to say they won't jump but Carlyle expects his blueliners to time their pinches a lot better and there is always someone back to cover. The defensive side of the puck is about aggression, giving the opponent little time/space and laying on the body, its a big difference from Wilson's regime. Another thing I have noticed though, is when we have a lead we collapse back in front of the goalie and are no longer the aggressor, its as if we just try to wait it out and pull out a win.

The only similarity I see between the 2 systems is were still struggling to get the puck out of the zone.

 

[Kingstonian84*]

maybe wilson never told him that he was making mistakes? (shrug)
it sounds to me that's what got the bug up his butt.

I think you're onto something, if you remember the season he was fired a lot of players spoke outloud about him not communicating with his players. I know Kessel said Wilson never talked to his players on or off the ice, I know both Schenn and Komi criticized him for not informing them that they were bench, instead they had to learn that through twitter. So, it wouldn't surprise me that he wouldn't let a player like Mac if he's making a mistake, he seems to be the coach to just let all the players do their own thing on the ice.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I remember Wilson specifically mentioning Mac as a player who went to him for advice on what he needs to work on and Grabo did the same and would spend more time practising on the ice than any other player. It seems like players that took it upon themselves to approach Wilson are the guys who had better relationships with him. Interestingly enough, Mac would ask Wilson about what he needs to improve on and found that supportive while he took offense to Carlyle telling him what he needs to improve on. It actually makes a lot of sense as Mac refers to not wanting to hear your mistakes all the time. He feels more comfortable being the one to recognize his weaknesses and seek advice rather than someone else recognizing his weaknesses and offering that advice.

On the flip side, Wilson's approach was the exact reason why Franson and Kadri didn't like him. They didn't like their coach making decisions about scratching them in games or decreasing their ice time without offering any explanations as to why. Both guys have said they preferred Carlyle's honest approach because at least it gives them the opportunity to work on whatever area of their game needs improvement.

Frankly, they're professional athletes and I don't really sympathize with a player who takes issue with a coach who is doing his job. I can understand Mac's position if Carlyle is being demeaning and insulting but I have no reason to believe that that's how Carlyle addresses his players.

Well, from what I see from media scrums, Carlyle looks like he's a guy who seems approachable. Yeah he gets his "i'm p'oed look on, when we're playing badly but I don't, for the life of me see what all these players are seeing. And every day, Carlyle comes out and goes, while we're winning, we'r enot going to pick it to death, but we're always going to be better.

Wilson was always pushing the buck to someone else, which to me made it seem the entire team had that attitude.

I think you're onto something, if you remember the season he was fired a lot of players spoke outloud about him not communicating with his players. I know Kessel said Wilson never talked to his players on or off the ice, I know both Schenn and Komi criticized him for not informing them that they were bench, instead they had to learn that through twitter. So, it wouldn't surprise me that he wouldn't let a player like Mac if he's making a mistake, he seems to be the coach to just let all the players do their own thing on the ice.

I have to say - I was flabbergasted when last year I was watching HNIC and Hughson said that Franson must really like the opportunities he was getting with Carlyle, unlike Wilson as Franson found out he was scratched one game by looking at the jumbotron. Who the hell does that?

I have to say as someone who taught for a while, I was a hard, hard. teacher. (I taught English in Korea), I failed like 1/2 of my classes every semester and it got to the point where my very good friend was like "I love you Daisy, but I don't want to be in your class, because I want to pass." One of my students (who failed), heard and said, "But we're learning so much."

I think that's the key. I said upthread - my personal favourite teachers were the ones who rode my butt hard because I was a lazy student (because I was really. really. smart. so i never understood the point of doing homework, or doing my best, because I knew what I was being taught, and the teacher knew I knew,etc etc). And I always remembered getting so frustrated at them for making me do more than I had to - until one day one of them (His name was Mr. Dubar - and he was my English teacher), said, it's not enough to know it. It's about being able to apply it, and not waste your intelligence by just being "meh."

and I feel that's what Carlyle does to his players. Tak7 listed a bunch of stuff, so did Grant but I think it boils down to - he can't deal with lazy people. He wants hard working, driven guys. You may not be the best but he'll reward your effort.. I also think he's harder on the SPECIAL guys (Gardiner, Kadri, etc). because he KNOWS they are special. he KNOWS if he can make their game more wellrounded, they'll be spectacular.

(Like I pointed out, Gardiner is very good at playing "4th forward." he needs to learn how to play excellent defense. He's got it - we all saw it against Boston and I think Carlyle really wants to make it stick for him. Gards might not like it now, and he could even be like Bobby Ryan and never get it/like it. But it could be the thing that makes Gardiner That Special Player).

(it also makes me giggle the way MacArthur says it - HE wanted to leave Toronto because of Carlyle, rather than - he wasn't even offered a contract or talks to stay).

 

[DD03]

Wilson's system calls for all offensive players and relying heavily on your goaltending.

Carlyle plays a team game. End of story. Carlyle > Wilson AINEC.

 

[Ari91]

Well, from what I see from media scrums, Carlyle looks like he's a guy who seems approachable. Yeah he gets his "i'm p'oed look on, when we're playing badly but I don't, for the life of me see what all these players are seeing. And every day, Carlyle comes out and goes, while we're winning, we'r enot going to pick it to death, but we're always going to be better.

Wilson was always pushing the buck to someone else, which to me made it seem the entire team had that attitude.

I think it comes down to the player. If you aren't willing to work hard then Carlyle isn't going to be an approachable guy to you. If you don't like being told what you're doing wrong and how to fix it, Carlyle isn't going to seem approachable to you. I don't have any reason to believe that coaches generally pick on players for fun. A coach sees the potential in his players and knows what he's capable of. Being hard on that player and having high expectations should be a testament to that player of how much his coach thinks of his potential and his ability. When Gardiner is sitting in the press box and watching Kostka play instead, I hope he was thinking 'my coach believes in my potential, and now I have to go out there and prove to him and myself that he isn't wrong'.

Even if some players don't find Carlyle approachable, Franson has said that the entire coaching staff have made themselves accessible because they understand that it may be intimidating for a player to knock on his coach's door for a one on one session.

As for Wilson, you're correct about the way he criticized the team. I remember good games by Kessel and Kadri where afterwards he would voluntarily throw in some sort of criticism about their game. He would never do that with guys he seemed to favour (Mac, Grabo, Komi). With Carlyle, he speaks about the performance of the team overall. Only when asked does he provide separate commentary on a particular player.

 

[Crispy Crust]

Wilson's system calls for all offensive players and relying heavily on your goaltending.

Carlyle plays a team game. End of story. Carlyle > Wilson AINEC.

That seemed to be the case last season.

 

[Tak7]

I am NOT a fan of the Clarkson contract, and think before long the Leafs will really grow to regret it.

However, it's simple. Clarkson offers more than MacArthur.

The Leafs didn't make any real effort to keep Clarke, and he was clearly upset about it.

I thought he was really good in the hockey game though - he had about 4 or 5 amazing chances to score, and probably should have had a few goals. He will fit in nicely in Ottawa, for now. Then he will disappear for 15-20 games at a time, and Sens fans will realize why the Leafs couldn't put up with him.

 

[bax]

I seem to remember a LOT more breakaways and 2 on 1's and 3 on 1's when Ron Wilson was the coach here. I'm seeing a lot more shots from the outside now as opposed to up close or all alone. Not all of them of course but there is a big difference as far as I can tell. That either has something to do with Carlyle or it's just too many beers on my part. Either one is plausible.

Anyway, not a smart move to mouth off about a coach or even player for that matter. They were talking about this on TSN today. Hockey's a close circle and you just never know what room you'll be walking into next and who's going to be your new coach or team mate. Sometimes it's better to just give your boring, rehearsed answer and keep your nose clean.