Confirmed with Link: Luke Richardson Hired as Assistant Coach

[Habs Halifax]

I didn't understand why you were talking about names here.

I just noticed you edited your post in regards to the Lightning.

I'm not sure what you want here ? You want me to literally list a bunch of names so you can dissect each one to show me it wasn't development ?

No thanks. I'll just let you go through their lineups in recent years. It's filled with 2nd, 3rd,6th rounders and overagers that far exceeded expectations and players who were left to develop in the AHL with some great, great coaches.

Heck, we just signed one to a 1.3M/year contract and everyone, me included, seems hyped about a guy with 10 NHL games last year, who wasnt even resigned because of their depth. But, that's just one example, there are other similar teams in the last 2 decades.

Better draft pick vs ability to develop them. We disagree and it's OK. I'm just not on that "development" bandwagon. Development is on the player. It's what I believe. A team can only do so much.

 

[Habs Halifax]

There's no way for any of us to know one way or the other what would of happened to any player if instead of hiring a rookie head coach in Lefebvre they actually hired someone with a proven track record. It could have gone better, worse or about the same. But for me as someone that watched most of their games every year I would look at the decisions being made and to me they were questionable ones that impacted their development.

To me I happen to disagree strongly, I think a very good head coach can do wonders for a player, but he's not going to turn Dale Weise into Tim Kerr but if he does his job he helps him reach his expected level or close to it. Hockey is so much mental, you must instill confidence and get the players to buy into what you are saying. Put them in positions to succeed so that their confidence is stoked while also teaching them how to improve on their weaknesses.

Look at Beaulieu, the kid made the same mistakes over and over and over and over. Now maybe you can't fix someone who can't think the game. But when he was playing with Gonchar his game seemed to work so much better. So maybe with a better coach, better development where they don't bring him up at 20 when he's not ready, don't bring him up again at 21 when he's not ready, don't have MT bench him for every little mistake then send him down the next day. Now in no way am I saying that anyone could turn Beaulieu into Ray Bourque but clearly Beaulieu had skills, skating and mobility that should have turned him into a decent bottom pairing D imo.

You can say well that's just one case. But take a look at the organization. Go back to the Guy Boucher days, the Randy's, Don Lever. What is the same since then? Timmins. And we can clearly see that in the past, under said coaches, we developed much better. So did Timmins ability to find talent just take a major dive, or could it be that he did the same job but that the development was in fact a part of what went wrong. I'm not just talking Lefebvre, I brought up in another thread about how management rushed too many 19/20 year olds to the NHL when they weren't dominating the AHL then they made mistakes because they weren't put in the best positions, then they got sat, then they got put in the press box for days on end, then they got sent down and then they struggled in the AHL. rinse, repeat over and over. Clearly when things aren't working, repeating the steps is not a good idea imo.

Now maybe Lefebvre isn't at fault, maybe it's just the players. But ask yourself, if you were a playmaker, what do you think would be best for your development? If you were a 20 year old rookie in the AHL and was one of the best players on the team, get called up to the NHL and put up solid numbers with limited TOI. If the next year your coach takes you off the top line and the PP and replaces you with no talent grinders, do you think that would help or hurt your development?

I understand what you are saying. My point is a coach can only do so much with development. Sly was just a bad coach and yes, I do believe he was not helpful with facilitating a good environment to allow players to develop cause of the position he put them in. However, DLR for example turned out fine. His development was not destroyed, it was just not the best situation for him but he turned out OK. DLR development is on DLR. Same for McCarron.

A lot of spin off negatives happens when we have bad prospects. The entire AHL team just lacked good players and Sly didn't know how to handle it properly. He was not able to get the best from what he had. Bergevin also deserves to take some blame cause he didn't sign good enough players to help from year to year.

I don't see one player we failed in development. A player that busted with our team but turned out OK after he left our team.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Where is the source for your random "90%" number? Your ass or your neighbour's?

I don't know a single person who has taken part of any sport seriously talk about how unimportant coaches are to development. The only people I know who say this are internet posters who most of the time don't even work out.

A coach is essentially a mentor and a teacher. Giving me a good coach isn't going to turn me into Barry Bonds. Heck, giving me the best steroids wouldn't even do that. But a bad coach can be poisonous and Sly definitely seem to have been one.
Anybody say good things about this clown? Any players being impressive coming out of the AHL?
The guy has done nothing. Nobody has ever said McCarron could be Cam Neely if it weren't for Lefebvre, those are strawman brought forth by some just for the sake of arguing.
Could McCarron be a good 3rd or 4th liner though? Yea, absolutely he could. Leblanc not good enough to make it? Disagree.
A guy like Kristo, sure, he wasn't talented enough. But those other guys were good enough to be regular bottom liners.

Of course, the kids themselves have to do the bulk of the work, but proper coaching helps a lot.

Pick a number. Development is largely on the player. A good coach helps yes. Don't confuse the word help with making a huge impact. Last time I checked, Tinordi is still a AHL player after he was traded.

A lot of people are confusing lack of good Draft Picks vs Team Sucess in the AHL vs a Bad Coach.

 

[Kriss E]

Pick a number. Development is largely on the player. A good coach helps yes. Don't confuse the word help with making a huge impact. Last time I checked, Tinordi is still a AHL player after he was traded.

A lot of people are confusing lack of good Draft Picks vs Team Sucess in the AHL vs a Bad Coach.

Nobody is confusing anything, it's just something you like to use when you can't argue your way out.

You look at Tinordi now and claim he's still AHL bound while not considering the impact of what 2-3 years of poor development can do to a kid.

Sure, development is largely on the player, you can only show him the way, he's the one that needs to do the work after. But if you have a bozo who isn't showing him the right way, it can have a major impact.
I'm a strength and conditioning coach, I'm not talking out of my ass throwing fictional numbers around on a subject I'm clueless about.

Coaches can have major impact on some people.
It can also be completely useless on some others.
You cannot brush it out of the way in any case, and when speaking of the past 6 years, considering the massive failure to produce any kind of decent prospect (no matter how little we drafted, no reason why we could not have a couple of strong bottom 6 players at this point), added to the fact there isn't much praise sent towards Sly over the same period, and that people here who regularly watched/followed the AHL team found many weird decisions by the coaching staff, then ya, it's fair to say there was some very bad development going on.
At the same time, we had less picks from 08-11, and we weren't necessarily hitting home runs with our picks either. All of this together leads to the cluster f*** that has been the habs.

But do not tell me coaching has no influence or barely any. That's complete BS.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Nobody is confusing anything, it's just something you like to use when you can't argue your way out.

You look at Tinordi now and claim he's still AHL bound while not considering the impact of what 2-3 years of poor development can do to a kid.

Sure, development is largely on the player, you can only show him the way, he's the one that needs to do the work after. But if you have a bozo who isn't showing him the right way, it can have a major impact.
I'm a strength and conditioning coach, I'm not talking out of my ass throwing fictional numbers around on a subject I'm clueless about.

Coaches can have major impact on some people.
It can also be completely useless on some others.
You cannot brush it out of the way in any case, and when speaking of the past 6 years, considering the massive failure to produce any kind of decent prospect (no matter how little we drafted, no reason why we could not have a couple of strong bottom 6 players at this point), added to the fact there isn't much praise sent towards Sly over the same period, and that people here who regularly watched/followed the AHL team found many weird decisions by the coaching staff, then ya, it's fair to say there was some very bad development going on.
At the same time, we had less picks from 08-11, and we weren't necessarily hitting home runs with our picks either. All of this together leads to the cluster **** that has been the habs.

But do not tell me coaching has no influence or barely any. That's complete BS.

I'm not backing out anything. I telling you my opinion and like always... you go on a rampage. Discussion is over. We both spoke. Nothing more to say other than a war where we say the same things over and over and you get nasty in the end trying to insist that your opinion is fact.

 

[Kriss E]

I'm not backing out anything. I telling you my opinion and like always... you go on a rampage. Discussion is over. We both spoke. Nothing more to say other than a war where we say the same things over and over and you get nasty in the end trying to insist that your opinion is fact.

You never do...despite always being wrong...
Keep pulling 90% stats out of your ass, always a pleasure to read.

 

[Habs Halifax]

You never do...despite always being wrong...
Keep pulling 90% stats out of your ass, always a pleasure to read.

I did pull the 90% out of my ass and I also said it can be 80/20, 85/15, 95/5. Pick a number. My opinion is it's something around those numbers when it comes to development. The team can only do so much. There is no way to scientifically come up with a % and it's a fact.

What's you number our of your ass if you disagree so much with 90%? Stop with the contraversal approach and talk vs screaming. You might get a better conversation but something tells me you have no interest in this.

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

The whole development or lack their off has taken new levels. Some think we should of developed McCarron into a top 2 center by now and that is Sly's fault. It's always someone's fault and almost never on the player.

Agreed - the players have zero accountability on these boards

 

[Tyson]

Addition by subtraction is what I think of when I reflect on the tenure of Lefebvre

 

[Laurentide]

Given that Lefebvre struck out trying to find employment elsewhere last year and so far hasn't found anything again this year, tells me all I need to know about what kind of coach he was. When your entire coaching staff that you let go at both the pro and minor levels (Therrien, Lefebvre, Daigneault, Lacroix,Carriere) can't find jobs in North America, that just goes to show how bad they were at their jobs.

Every last one of them a "ti-gars de chez nous" who were hired to fill a quota and who would never be hired by any other team.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Not sure the entire narrative here, but seeing people talk about Lefebvre I just gotta add.

He's a terrible coach, but the suckage of the farm team isn't completely on him.

Bergevin had no f***ing idea how to build a farm team. Nothing but rookies and shitty ahl vets. You need good ones.

He finally started to do that with St. Pierre, except it was only him and our prospects sucked, so again, the team sucks.

Last year he (Bergevin) finally realized how to build an AHL team, but then the depth got destroyed by injuries and constantly rolling 8 d and 13 forwards for whatever reason.

Hopefully this year the coach and gm sent players down. There's a reason you have your ahl team so close now.

f***ing Bergevin is such a slow learner. He'll eventually get fired here, but will likely be once he starts to get a handle on how things work and to stop with his lies. Trades are hard. Top centres/ good centres aren't available. Blah blah blaaaah.

 

[Andrei79]

I did pull the 90% out of my ass and I also said it can be 80/20, 85/15, 95/5. Pick a number. My opinion is it's something around those numbers when it comes to development. The team can only do so much. There is no way to scientifically come up with a % and it's a fact.

What's you number our of your ass if you disagree so much with 90%? Stop with the contraversal approach and talk vs screaming. You might get a better conversation but something tells me you have no interest in this.

Actually, there are scientific ways to test this and it's been done for other things, but it's not a task that's likely to get done for hockey anytime soon.

It's a bit funny though to read you say you took a number out of your ass then ask for one. Why would people engage in something that's completely unfounded ?

We actually do know that coaches can have a negative influence on athletes that significantly affects outcomes. We also know that countries like Finland had to change their coaching methods and national team infrastructure to stay relevant, culminating in a number of high picks and impact players on the professional level.

We know that both coaching and organisation environment has significant outcomes on youth sports development, but there's obviously less research for adults. We can just surmise that seeing as for other ventures with similar outcomes, development keeps being important through young adulthood.

 

[montreal]

I understand what you are saying. My point is a coach can only do so much with development. Sly was just a bad coach and yes, I do believe he was not helpful with facilitating a good environment to allow players to develop cause of the position he put them in. However, DLR for example turned out fine. His development was not destroyed, it was just not the best situation for him but he turned out OK. DLR development is on DLR. Same for McCarron.

A lot of spin off negatives happens when we have bad prospects. The entire AHL team just lacked good players and Sly didn't know how to handle it properly. He was not able to get the best from what he had. Bergevin also deserves to take some blame cause he didn't sign good enough players to help from year to year.

I don't see one player we failed in development. A player that busted with our team but turned out OK after he left our team.

it's a little early yet to say DLR has turned out fine.

I agree a coach can only do so much with development, but when you do a bad job it impacts their development. You say you don't see one player failed in development, so do you think if you were a 1st round draft pick that played in the AHL at 20, was one of the top players on the team and gets called up and does well that the next year under a different coach they take you off the top line and PP only to replace you with no talent grinders. Don't you think that would impact your condifence? Do you think that's a good way to develop a player?

The other thing is I don't agree with your statement, a player that busted with us but turned out ok after he left. Since hockey is so much mental and they are getting this kids mostly at 20 and will have them for 3 years give or take, those are prime development years and once you mess with their confidence it can be very hard to get it back.

I look at the decisions the coach makes, is he putting his prospects in a position to succeed? what is he doing to help prospects improve on their weaknesses?

 

[Habs Halifax]

Actually, there are scientific ways to test this and it's been done for other things, but it's not a task that's likely to get done for hockey anytime soon.

It's a bit funny though to read you say you took a number out of your ass then ask for one. Why would people engage in something that's completely unfounded ?

We actually do know that coaches can have a negative influence on athletes that significantly affects outcomes. We also know that countries like Finland had to change their coaching methods and national team infrastructure to stay relevant, culminating in a number of high picks and impact players on the professional level.

We know that both coaching and organisation environment has significant outcomes on youth sports development, but there's obviously less research for adults. We can just surmise that seeing as for other ventures with similar outcomes, development keeps being important through young adulthood.

Explain your scientific way of measuring the impact of development a coach would have? I'm interested in you explaining this? Sounds like you pulled something out of your ass? . We are even now... Don't worry, I won't hold it against you

 

[Habs Halifax]

Addition by subtraction is what I think of when I reflect on the tenure of Lefebvre

Terrible coach and he should of been let go before last season. We seem to be 12 months behind with making decisions. Same with MT and likely the same with the organization realizing we need a rebuild. Maybe they realize next off season?

 

[Habs Halifax]

it's a little early yet to say DLR has turned out fine.

I agree a coach can only do so much with development, but when you do a bad job it impacts their development. You say you don't see one player failed in development, so do you think if you were a 1st round draft pick that played in the AHL at 20, was one of the top players on the team and gets called up and does well that the next year under a different coach they take you off the top line and PP only to replace you with no talent grinders. Don't you think that would impact your condifence? Do you think that's a good way to develop a player?

The other thing is I don't agree with your statement, a player that busted with us but turned out ok after he left. Since hockey is so much mental and they are getting this kids mostly at 20 and will have them for 3 years give or take, those are prime development years and once you mess with their confidence it can be very hard to get it back.

I look at the decisions the coach makes, is he putting his prospects in a position to succeed? what is he doing to help prospects improve on their weaknesses?

A bit too early but I think he is trending well. Pretty sure he is a NHL bottom 6 movable part moving forward. I just hope we continue to test him in certain situations with a bit of patience and coaching to allow him to learn and adapt. Big body that can skate but not overly offense. I like what I seen in the last few months... hoping he can continue it.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Addition by subtraction is what I think of when I reflect on the tenure of Lefebvre

And then its multiplication by bringing Bouchard in.

 

[Kriss E]

I did pull the 90% out of my ass and I also said it can be 80/20, 85/15, 95/5. Pick a number. My opinion is it's something around those numbers when it comes to development. The team can only do so much. There is no way to scientifically come up with a % and it's a fact.

What's you number our of your ass if you disagree so much with 90%? Stop with the contraversal approach and talk vs screaming. You might get a better conversation but something tells me you have no interest in this.

I don't have any number as I don't like to invent crap like you do.
Yes, the team can only do "so much", and from the look of it, the Habs definitely didn't play their part. They kept Tinordi in the press box for like 3 months for f***'s sake. I don't care if you think he sucked by then, that's not how you treat a prospect. They yoyoed Beaulieu left and right. You don't take a prospect who had a decent start in the NHL, back in the AHL and destroy his confidence by making plugs play over him, as Montreal pointed out.

If management hadn't done all these stupid things, then you'd have a point. Except we know management have taken terrible decisions, so how you give them the benefit of the doubt and instead blame all of the prospects instead is insane to me. Well, not really, given how you've repeatedly defended this organization, not surprised to see you do the same again.
I'm not being controversial, I'm calling you on your BS. Maybe the day you decide to stop inventing crap and be more reasonable in your discussions with an actual willingness to hear what people say instead of just "arguing" things, you'd see I'm not screaming.

 

[Kriss E]

A bit too early but I think he is trending well. Pretty sure he is a NHL bottom 6 movable part moving forward. I just hope we continue to test him in certain situations with a bit of patience and coaching to allow him to learn and adapt. Big body that can skate but not overly offense. I like what I seen in the last few months... hoping he can continue it.

Funny how you ignored the rest of his post...
And then you pretend like you're open to discuss things.

 

[Andrei79]

Explain your scientific way of measuring the impact of development a coach would have? I'm interested in you explaining this? Sounds like you pulled something out of your ass? . We are even now... Don't worry, I won't hold it against you

Sure, without going into the minute details, I guess a general way would be to control for different internal and exernal variables (player temperament, height, socioeconomic standing, IQ, etc), find an outcome (point production pre-post, becoming a pro, making the NHL). You could do it by different methods: "reputation", player evaluation of the coach, win %, region/nation/club philosophy and infractucture. You could also measure attributes generally related to good coaching (communication skills, fairness, time spent teaching, positive environment). You could choose independent cohorts with similar attributes and expected potential and send them in different centers/coaches double-blind and measure outcomes according to those variables. You could do dependent studies as well. You could also put cohorts in "negative" environments (high pressure, little validation, bullying, little time spent teaching) and measure outcomes.Now, I'm giving this quickly, on my cell off the top of my head, but its an example.

There's plenty of other ways and making a multitude of studies with high populations is how you'd be eventually capable of arriving at a decent number for how much impact coaching has as a determinant of development.

In any case, I cited your own words with the "talking out of your ass" comment, not insulting you. Just putting emphasis in a contradicting statement.

 

[S Bah]

Truly glad to have a changing of the guard with the defensive coaching, new ideas with a new group of defencemen. Weber, Alzner, Petry are veterans but still fresh faces in the Habs lineup, adding two LHD's in Ouellet(France) & Despres both Francophones playing in Montreal a great thing IMHO!!!... this can only help our left side competition. Alzner & Mete will have to earn their minutes, as should always be the case, a huge reason our SCC teams were Champions.(The addition of Matt Peca & Jake Evans two centers noted for their abilities to win in the faceoff circles, will provide the same type of competition for a center role.) Having Danault, Plekanec, JDLR, Vejdemo, Verbeek, Pezzetta, Audette, Kotkaneimi, etc. all vying for center roles will ensure the competition is fierce.
These players will all need to impress new coaches in Richardson & Ducharme in the Habs main camp. For those that don't make the big team, Joel Bouchard & Alex Burrows gives them a fresh slate to make an impact in Laval. A short bike ride to the Bell Center, if any player falters at the NHL level, this will provide stimulus for our AHL players, all with the desire to come to play every shift IMHO, with the possibility of a callup each day.

Julien should reap the benefits of the Laval Rockets proximity to the Bell Centre. Whilst fans should be aware the Habs & Rockets are not world beaters this season, they can be assured of watching players competing fervently to keep a role in their lineup, while becoming more complete NHL players.

The Habs will probably miss the playoffs for at least another season, but it won't be for lack of effort, which bodes well for the Habs future IMHO!!!...Max Domi(LW) & Johnathan Drouin(LW) should be a pleasant change to our top six, having two extremely competitive LW's that are very good playmakers and two way players, that backcheck naturally as their desire to win drives them every shift.(Unlike Galchenyuk whose idea of a check was a pay cheque, nothing to do with hockey.) On that note I really like having two more Francophone wingers in Charles Hudon & Nick Deslauriers, whom realize and covet two way play & effort, more is better IMHO. Alex Grenier could be another PWF given time to hone his talents in the AHL(Laval) this season.

By the way, I prefer to watch my Habs play with the desire to win , whilst perhaps missing the playoffs. Than to play halfheartedly and make the playoffs, only to be badly trounced due to lack of effort and the inability to play a complete game.(Two way hockey is a must for all players to win the SCC, IMHO!!!...) When the Habs all learn to play with that type of intensity, the fans will know the 25th SCC is within their grasp once again.

 

[Agalloch]

So now.... Kirk Muller is gone or I'm missing something ?

It looks like Richardson (defense) and Ducharme (forwards) are the assistant behind the bench. Muller is now working upstairs ?

 

[Belial]

So now.... Kirk Muller is gone or I'm missing something ?

It looks like Richardson (defense) and Ducharme (forwards) are the assistant behind the bench. Muller is now working upstairs ?

No, they'll have 4 guys behind the bench.

 

[Beendair Donedat]

lmao I know him and his daughters personally and he never knew Bergevin before. what a bunch of bull**** you are saying

Forrest you seemed to have mixed this one up. Where are you and JJ these days?

 

[ottawa]

lmao I know him and his daughters personally and he never knew Bergevin before. what a bunch of bull**** you are saying

Yeah, the immediate shutdown you received was pretty embarrassing to see lol