Post-Game Talk: Love and Joy, Pens fall 3-2 to the Blues in OT

[Le Magnifique 66]

Can't wait to see Scuderi/Lovejoy get exploited in the playoffs

I feel even worse for Pouliot, because who ever he is paired with, all the mistakes those guys make will be pinned on him!!!

 

[IcedCapp]

It's hard to fathom a team giving up on talented guys without giving them a real chance, but the org made up their minds about Despres and BB awhile ago.

People really need to understand this point: decisions that are being "made" now were "made" months ago. You might think there was a regime change, but there was not.

If I could equate it to anything, I would say it's like an android who got a new exterior. The data stored, the digital brain, the decisions, they are all basically the same. It's just presented with a different face.

 

[IcedCapp]

Players tend to look better in specific systems, and that doesn't always show until that player goes to a different team and falters. Lovejoy seemed to be a pretty good 4/5/6 guy on Anaheim, so the Penguins picked him up. The funniest part is that he was already on the Penguins and not very good, so there's no excuse for them not realizing that he was made to look better by the Anaheim system and players.

Moreover, if my memory is correct - and perhaps it's not, someone can correct me - I believe Lovejoy improved INSTANTLY upon arriving in Anaheim.

It's not like he gradually developed. Again, if I recall correctly, he simply got into a situation that suited him, and he performed better. For the Pens to think he suddenly became a different/better player in his 30s is asinine. But they did the same thing with Scuderi. (And, to a lesser degree, Kunitz and Dupuis)

 

[cassius]

Selling low.. and buying high. Gotta love it.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

People really need to understand this point: decisions that are being "made" now were "made" months ago. You might think there was a regime change, but there was not.

If I could equate it to anything, I would say it's like an android who got a new exterior. The data stored, the digital brain, the decisions, they are all basically the same. It's just presented with a different face.

Ya, you made that clear in our PMs. My disconnect is two fold though...

First of all, how could Lemieux and Burkle give us this nonsense about developing these young guys, then allow this **** to happen? I can't wrap my head around the double speak.

Secondly, it's completely bizarre for a team to just give up on guys so quickly. They drafted Morrow, and within two years decided he wasn't part of their plans. What could have changed about him in such a short time? Someone didn't do their homework, or did he become a Scientologist when he got to WBS?

Even more bizarre is Despres and BB flashed potential when put in bigger roles. Despres played well in 5 out of 6 periods with Letang and BB played well with Malkin in 5.5 games.

No one in the org had the intelligence to speak up and say... "Hey, uh, these are young and talented kids. Let's see how they respond in these bigger roles over a larger sample size. " How do you make up your mind using such a small sample size? It seems grossly incompetent to me.

The most insane thing is they believe they have all of this farm depth and these guys are expendable. Bah, three first rounders... Expendable. Deep farm we have!

 

[WVP]

Ya, you made that clear in our PMs. My disconnect is two fold though...

First of all, how could Lemieux and Burkle give us this nonsense about developing these young guys, then allow this **** to happen? I can't wrap my head around the double speak.

Secondly, it's completely bizarre for a team to just give up on guys so quickly. They drafted Morrow, and within two years decided he wasn't part of their plans. What could have changed about him in such a short time? Someone didn't do their homework, or did he become a Scientologist when he got to WBS?

Even more bizarre is Despres and BB flashed potential when put in bigger roles. Despres played well in 5 out of 6 periods with Letang and BB played well with Malkin in 5.5 games.

No one in the org had the intelligence to speak up and say... "Hey, uh, these are young and talented kids. Let's see how they respond in these bigger roles over a larger sample size. " How do you make up your mind using such a small sample size? It seems grossly incompetent to me.

The most insane thing is they believe they have all of this farm depth and these guys are expendable. Bah, three first rounders... Expendable. Deep farm we have!

And this team has such an advantage with the fact that the playoffs are a lock, more or less. Crosby, Malkin, a good defense and great regular season goaltending assures it. There's plenty of room to experiment with youth. Bennett could have been playing next to Crosby or Malkin the whole year, and Despres in the top 4. 70 games later, we still don't know for sure what we have in those guys....

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

And this team has such an advantage with the fact that the playoffs are a lock, more or less. Crosby, Malkin, a good defense and great regular season goaltending assures it. There's plenty of room to experiment with youth. Bennett could have been playing next to Crosby or Malkin the whole year, and Despres in the top 4. 70 games later, we still don't know for sure what we have in those guys....

Hey, without Kunitz experience in the top six all season, we all know this team would be totally out of the playoff picture.

 

[wej20]

In a game where you have 11 forwards, stapling Bennett to the bench for most of the last two periods makes total sense.

 

[ColePens]

Ya, you made that clear in our PMs. My disconnect is two fold though...

First of all, how could Lemieux and Burkle give us this nonsense about developing these young guys, then allow this **** to happen? I can't wrap my head around the double speak.

Secondly, it's completely bizarre for a team to just give up on guys so quickly. They drafted Morrow, and within two years decided he wasn't part of their plans. What could have changed about him in such a short time? Someone didn't do their homework, or did he become a Scientologist when he got to WBS?

Even more bizarre is Despres and BB flashed potential when put in bigger roles. Despres played well in 5 out of 6 periods with Letang and BB played well with Malkin in 5.5 games.

No one in the org had the intelligence to speak up and say... "Hey, uh, these are young and talented kids. Let's see how they respond in these bigger roles over a larger sample size. " How do you make up your mind using such a small sample size? It seems grossly incompetent to me.

The most insane thing is they believe they have all of this farm depth and these guys are expendable. Bah, three first rounders... Expendable. Deep farm we have!

Blows my mind. If you take Mario/Burkle interview AND Tocchet's PP discussion before being hired and replay it now - it will still stand true. Everyone on HF would be saying "YES.. 100% correct!"

Sooooo why does it still happen?

 

[SEALBound]

Ya, you made that clear in our PMs. My disconnect is two fold though...

First of all, how could Lemieux and Burkle give us this nonsense about developing these young guys, then allow this **** to happen? I can't wrap my head around the double speak.

Secondly, it's completely bizarre for a team to just give up on guys so quickly. They drafted Morrow, and within two years decided he wasn't part of their plans. What could have changed about him in such a short time? Someone didn't do their homework, or did he become a Scientologist when he got to WBS?

Even more bizarre is Despres and BB flashed potential when put in bigger roles. Despres played well in 5 out of 6 periods with Letang and BB played well with Malkin in 5.5 games.

No one in the org had the intelligence to speak up and say... "Hey, uh, these are young and talented kids. Let's see how they respond in these bigger roles over a larger sample size. " How do you make up your mind using such a small sample size? It seems grossly incompetent to me.

The most insane thing is they believe they have all of this farm depth and these guys are expendable. Bah, three first rounders... Expendable. Deep farm we have!

Which troubles me about Babcock. One could argue he very Bylsma-istic in his treatment of the younger players. Of course, its not like Holland mortgages the future every year so...

Coaching could turn that around.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

The whole Bennett situation is a mess of circular logic. The organization, media, and coaches can provide whatever explanation they want for Bennett's usage but the reality is they simply don't like him and he will never be given an opportunity to prove his worth. I've seen it countless times on teams I have played on. Bad coaches dislike certain players and hold them down. MJ is a bad coach, it is as simple as that.

Everybody says he has to earn it. Well, he was the Penguins' best forward in the Chicago game. As the game went on he didn't get any pp time and didn't play during the overtime. According to his critics he should have earned more time in that game and it didn't happen. Yesterday he played a really solid first period after playing well in the previous game. Did he earn more ice time? Nope, he was benched.

I'm tired of people saying BB is inconsistent. It's not true. He is mishandled and punished for playing well. Asking a 23 year old to have a huge impact every night playing 8 minutes a game with 4th liners while having to constantly worry about being benched is unreasonable. It's no coincidence that commentators praise his play every time the Penguins play a nationally televised game. You'll never hear Steiggy, Bibsy or Jay compliment BB because they kiss the organization's ass and in the organization's opinion BB=bad.

 

[Shockmaster]

Blows my mind. If you take Mario/Burkle interview AND Tocchet's PP discussion before being hired and replay it now - it will still stand true. Everyone on HF would be saying "YES.. 100% correct!"

Sooooo why does it still happen?

It's starting to sound like we can't have the feelings of the veteran players get hurt.

At some point Kapanen will be ready for the NHL. He would serve absolutely zero purpose in a bottom 6 role, so he has to be put in a top 6 role even if he hasn't "earned it." Which means demoting a more experienced player. If they treat Kapanen like they've treated Bennett then they might as well trade him now.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Blows my mind. If you take Mario/Burkle interview AND Tocchet's PP discussion before being hired and replay it now - it will still stand true. Everyone on HF would be saying "YES.. 100% correct!"

Sooooo why does it still happen?

I don't have an answer. It's beyond the kind of logic I understand.

Both Despres and BB showed promise in larger roles, but were never given a chance to continue in those roles. Why? I asked myself that many times, but Capps source basically said they made up their minds long ago. They were playing BB with Malkin to up his trade value. When the deal fell through, he became an unwanted piece laying around. That's why he isn't given an expanded role or thrown a bone on the second unit PP.

Minds have been made up and it's so shortsighted and borderline incompetent, that I can't find an ounce of common sense behind it.

The org believes Despres and BB are the problems and Scuds, Lovejoy and Kunitz are the solutions. That's how bizarre they have gotten.

Which troubles me about Babcock. One could argue he very Bylsma-istic in his treatment of the younger players. Of course, its not like Holland mortgages the future every year so...

Coaching could turn that around.

The difference is Babcock schooled DB at the Olympics and is a much better coach. He isn't a youth friendly guy, but look at all of the young kids in his lineup now.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Blows my mind. If you take Mario/Burkle interview AND Tocchet's PP discussion before being hired and replay it now - it will still stand true. Everyone on HF would be saying "YES.. 100% correct!"

Sooooo why does it still happen?

Well, people knowing the right thing to say to appease everyone seems like the easiest answer, but I think they have communication problems or people doing whatever they want somewhere. Tocchet just screams someone who talked a big game and then couldn't deliver when he got a chance.

 

[MtlPenFan]

I couldn't help but laugh at this game. Bort and Goc score 2 of the 3 St. Louis goals and Lappy and Lovejoy even admitted they were to blame for the 3 goals against.

Not to mention Ehrhoff returns and gets hurt immediately. He's become a real Pen.

Not sure what to think of Bennett. He's not being put in the best position to succeed but that's no excuse for all of his underwhelming play lately. It can't hurt to give him a look in the top 6 ahead of Kunitz though.

Neither goal was Lappy's fault.

The second goal was almost 100% on Scuderi. Too bad he doesn't have Lovejoy's balls. Just like Oprik that one is. Nothing to say about his own play.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

I really want BB to be traded to an organization that will give him a fair shot as a top 6 winger. I would then hope for BB to light us up every time we play his new team as Root sports cuts to a shot of that clueless idiot Johnston and his vacant stare.

 

[wej20]

Pens are struggling to give him a shot as a top 9 winger never mind top 6.

 

[IcedCapp]

Jumbled thoughts going through this:

I had originally thought the issue with BB and Despres was vets feeling threatened. Orpik, Niskanen, Kunitz, Neal, Dupuis didn't want to be replaced by song snot-nosed brat. Especially since 3 of those 5 were scrappy people who clawed their way into an NHL lineup, and now some 1st round pick was just going to take it from them?

But that doesn't really explain Douglas Murray, Mark Eaton, Rob Scuderi, etc...

Then, there's the past 12 months:

1) Shero is fired, but, imo, actually liked by management.

2) Bylsma is fired in a humiliating way

3) the reason given for these terminations: poor use of kids, not surrounding Sid and Geno with help, and not standing up for each other (I think that was one of them)

4) then one of the kids they specifically mentioned (Despres) is traded, BB is persona non grata, Kunitz can do no wrong.

5) The team starts out the year sticking up for one another. Now, if you stick up for someone, you go to Anaheim or St. Louis and are insulted by being called nothing but a fighter.

6) one last thing on Despres. This team is owned by a French Canadian who basically condoned the team (coach and marketing) belittling Despres by purposefully butchering his French Canadian name.


Maybe it's just incompetence. Maybe it's tinfoil hate ****. But the Pens say one thing and do another. They've been this way for quite some time. The people we used to blame for this (Shero and Bylsma) are gone. The new people still do it.

What's the common denominator?

 

[MtlPenFan]

Jumbled thoughts going through this:

I had originally thought the issue with BB and Despres was vets feeling threatened. Orpik, Niskanen, Kunitz, Neal, Dupuis didn't want to be replaced by song snot-nosed brat. Especially since 3 of those 5 were scrappy people who clawed their way into an NHL lineup, and now some 1st round pick was just going to take it from them?

But that doesn't really explain Douglas Murray, Mark Eaton, Rob Scuderi, etc...

Then, there's the past 12 months:

1) Shero is fired, but, imo, actually liked by management.

2) Bylsma is fired in a humiliating way

3) the reason given for these terminations: poor use of kids, not surrounding Sid and Geno with help, and not standing up for each other (I think that was one of them)

4) then one of the kids they specifically mentioned (Despres) is traded, BB is persona non grata, Kunitz can do no wrong.

5) The team starts out the year sticking up for one another. Now, if you stick up for someone, you go to Anaheim or St. Louis and are insulted by being called nothing but a fighter.

6) one last thing on Despres. This team is owned by a French Canadian who basically condoned the team (coach and marketing) belittling Despres by purposefully butchering his French Canadian name.


Maybe it's just incompetence. Maybe it's tinfoil hate ****. But the Pens say one thing and do another. They've been this way for quite some time. The people we used to blame for this (Shero and Bylsma) are gone. The new people still do it.

What's the common denominator?

I don't know how much of it is actually conspiratorial.

There's definitely favoritism going on, but a lot of vets get preferential treatment in every team sport.

Honestly, I'm starting to think that most of these guys just aren't any good at their jobs. They're thought to be because 3 or 4 players in the lineup are so good they can camouflage a ton faults, but in the end, it looks to me like they simply don't know what they're doing.

 

[Old Gregg]

Jumbled thoughts going through this:

I had originally thought the issue with BB and Despres was vets feeling threatened. Orpik, Niskanen, Kunitz, Neal, Dupuis didn't want to be replaced by song snot-nosed brat. Especially since 3 of those 5 were scrappy people who clawed their way into an NHL lineup, and now some 1st round pick was just going to take it from them?

But that doesn't really explain Douglas Murray, Mark Eaton, Rob Scuderi, etc...

Then, there's the past 12 months:

1) Shero is fired, but, imo, actually liked by management.

2) Bylsma is fired in a humiliating way

3) the reason given for these terminations: poor use of kids, not surrounding Sid and Geno with help, and not standing up for each other (I think that was one of them)

4) then one of the kids they specifically mentioned (Despres) is traded, BB is persona non grata, Kunitz can do no wrong.

5) The team starts out the year sticking up for one another. Now, if you stick up for someone, you go to Anaheim or St. Louis and are insulted by being called nothing but a fighter.

6) one last thing on Despres. This team is owned by a French Canadian who basically condoned the team (coach and marketing) belittling Despres by purposefully butchering his French Canadian name.


Maybe it's just incompetence. Maybe it's tinfoil hate ****. But the Pens say one thing and do another. They've been this way for quite some time. The people we used to blame for this (Shero and Bylsma) are gone. The new people still do it.

What's the common denominator?

Crosby

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I really want BB to be traded to an organization that will give him a fair shot as a top 6 winger. I would then hope for BB to light us up every time we play his new team as Root sports cuts to a shot of that clueless idiot Johnston and his vacant stare.

I'm a Pens first, always will be. I don't want them to do something stupid and have it haunt them.

If BB looked like say, Kunitz, when he was with Malkin, it would be easier to accept the guy doesn't have it. But every time he's with Malkin they play well together and have chemistry. When they do national broadcasts, guys like Eddie O and PM notice BB and compliment him. Then wonder why he isn't being used more.

It not just us seeing what we want to see. But there is so much resistance in this org for doing what makes perfect sense. That's why it's frustrating to watch. The org has made up their mind and then completely eroded the guys confidence.

Yet Kunitz is the Teflon Don. He isn't bad, see. It's his lack of iron and bad luck.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Jumbled thoughts going through this:

I had originally thought the issue with BB and Despres was vets feeling threatened. Orpik, Niskanen, Kunitz, Neal, Dupuis didn't want to be replaced by song snot-nosed brat. Especially since 3 of those 5 were scrappy people who clawed their way into an NHL lineup, and now some 1st round pick was just going to take it from them?

But that doesn't really explain Douglas Murray, Mark Eaton, Rob Scuderi, etc...

Then, there's the past 12 months:

1) Shero is fired, but, imo, actually liked by management.

2) Bylsma is fired in a humiliating way

3) the reason given for these terminations: poor use of kids, not surrounding Sid and Geno with help, and not standing up for each other (I think that was one of them)

4) then one of the kids they specifically mentioned (Despres) is traded, BB is persona non grata, Kunitz can do no wrong.

5) The team starts out the year sticking up for one another. Now, if you stick up for someone, you go to Anaheim or St. Louis and are insulted by being called nothing but a fighter.

6) one last thing on Despres. This team is owned by a French Canadian who basically condoned the team (coach and marketing) belittling Despres by purposefully butchering his French Canadian name.


Maybe it's just incompetence. Maybe it's tinfoil hate ****. But the Pens say one thing and do another. They've been this way for quite some time. The people we used to blame for this (Shero and Bylsma) are gone. The new people still do it.

What's the common denominator?

6 seems like a reach, tonnes of names get butchered by Steigy and other announcers, everyone, really. It could be deliberately belittling but I doubt it, getting something they can all manage could be seen as preferable to other options. Other announcers mangle Despres frequently, Bortuzzo was an adventure, Steigy had like 3 different pronunciations if someone's name and never got it right, etc. People can be **** with names from a language they don't know and anglicizing names is common, you can make an argument that anglicizing itself is a problem. Now, why the hell Steigy is employed is something to complain about. 5 I don't get.

We can talk about people who left but it's the ones who are still here that need to be looked at and Morehouse probably gets scapegoated to a degree with this. The Pens know what to say, that doesn't mean they think it's right.

I don't know how much of it is actually conspiratorial.

There's definitely favoritism going on, but a lot of vets get preferential treatment in every team sport.

Honestly, I'm starting to think that most of these guys just aren't any good at their jobs. They're thought to be because 3 or 4 players in the lineup are so good they can camouflage a ton faults, but in the end, it looks to me like they simply don't know what they're doing.

I think this is a major problem for them, tbh. People like to say for example "Without Fleury they wouldn't be in a playoff spot." Well, maybe, but that level of play has allowed them to ignore the problems, maybe they wouldn't be in one or maybe they'd have been forced to handle their ****. Shero's treatment of wingers is the prime example of it.

 

[66-30-33]

I really want BB to be traded to an organization that will give him a fair shot as a top 6 winger. I would then hope for BB to light us up every time we play his new team as Root sports cuts to a shot of that clueless idiot Johnston and his vacant stare.

Give him to the Ducks, he would play him. Maybe not top 6 right away but his skillset will eventually get there and he can join Despres. BB coaching BB haha. Pens can get an old declining vet.

 

[drpepper]

Jumbled thoughts going through this:

I had originally thought the issue with BB and Despres was vets feeling threatened. Orpik, Niskanen, Kunitz, Neal, Dupuis didn't want to be replaced by song snot-nosed brat. Especially since 3 of those 5 were scrappy people who clawed their way into an NHL lineup, and now some 1st round pick was just going to take it from them?

But that doesn't really explain Douglas Murray, Mark Eaton, Rob Scuderi, etc...

There's nothing to really explain here. Almost universally coaches prefer vets. They are less work, and they are predictable and usually conservative.

It happens to almost every coach and team in the league and in many other sports.

Then, there's the past 12 months:

1) Shero is fired, but, imo, actually liked by management.

Shero was fired because he couldn't produce results (playoff wins and a Stanley Cup) not because he was unlikeable or that the owners disagreed with the way he planned and handled the team (signing vets, drafting defensemen).

2) Bylsma is fired in a humiliating way.

Bylsma was fired in a way that is very familiar in other corporate settings. It may not be familiar to hockey, but that comes straight out of the Fortune 500 playbook.

3) the reason given for these terminations: poor use of kids, not surrounding Sid and Geno with help, and not standing up for each other (I think that was one of them)

Lemieux and Burkle directly cited "grit and character," speed (referencing Montreal), surround Crosby and Malkin with the players to be successful, and bringing in "younger guys" that they drafted. (Source)

The team brought in Hornqvist, Downie, Spaling, and Comeau (the only one that originally addressed speed at all). They kept Dupuis, Kunitz, Scuderi, and Sutter (whose grit might be questionable but speed and character aren't). They played Bortuzzo and Despres. It sounds like they tried to sign and eventually traded for Winnik. They insisted Tocchet be an assistant coach.

Management assumed Dupuis and Kunitz would be healthy and productive preferably returning to 2013 shortened season levels of production in spite of the lack of success in the post-season. They traded for Hornqvist and eventually Perron.

For the young kids, see below.

4) then one of the kids they specifically mentioned (Despres) is traded, BB is persona non grata, Kunitz can do no wrong.

Burkle said, "We’ve got forwards and D-men who we have drafted and didn’t always take advantage of them or done a lot with them," and "So we haven’t given those younger guys a chance. We haven’t gotten that right mix on the ice."

Burkle and Lemieux never brought up or mentioned any young player by name. Dejan brought up Despres, Lovejoy, and Letestu. Pens fans and this board in particular overemphasized a Despres reference that never happened that way.

Young players will get opportunities when they have pedigrees like Pouliot or KK. You'll notice that the interview didn't mention being capable of developing young players; only players that swim and don't doggy-paddle welcome.

5) The team starts out the year sticking up for one another. Now, if you stick up for someone, you go to Anaheim or St. Louis and are insulted by being called nothing but a fighter.

Lemieux specifically corrected Dejan that they didn't want fighters, but "just players who have some grit and character"

I didn't see anything about standing up for each other in the interview. In particular, I could see the coach and management souring on that point as Downie has proven difficult to control.

6) one last thing on Despres. This team is owned by a French Canadian who basically condoned the team (coach and marketing) belittling Despres by purposefully butchering his French Canadian name.

I understand that Despres is your thing. But the Pens and specifically Steigy and Errey butcher everyone's names.

They frequently can't say Lapierre. I had to mute the TV during Kings and Carolina games for their slaughtering of Sekera.

Maybe it's just incompetence. Maybe it's tinfoil hate ****. But the Pens say one thing and do another. They've been this way for quite some time. The people we used to blame for this (Shero and Bylsma) are gone. The new people still do it.

What's the common denominator?

I think that it's clear that in terms of scouting, drafting and developing the Pens have not changed much.

 

[canadianguy77]

Maybe the 3 AGMs pushed hard for the Kunitz extension and the Scuderi contract when Ray was still here. It could be something as simple as them not wanting to eat crow because they don't want to look bad to ownership for pushing those deals. Pretty much the only thing that makes sense to me.