Post-Game Talk: Love and Joy, Pens fall 3-2 to the Blues in OT

[SEALBound]

I'm a Pens first, always will be. I don't want them to do something stupid and have it haunt them.

If BB looked like say, Kunitz, when he was with Malkin, it would be easier to accept the guy doesn't have it. But every time he's with Malkin they play well together and have chemistry. When they do national broadcasts, guys like Eddie O and PM notice BB and compliment him. Then wonder why he isn't being used more.

It not just us seeing what we want to see. But there is so much resistance in this org for doing what makes perfect sense. That's why it's frustrating to watch. The org has made up their mind and then completely eroded the guys confidence.

Yet Kunitz is the Teflon Don. He isn't bad, see. It's his lack of iron and bad luck.

But he's a good guy and we like him. He's well liked around the clubhouse.

 

[IcedCapp]

I understand that Despres is your thing. But the Pens and specifically Steigy and Errey butcher everyone's names.

I'm referring to Dan Bylsma calling him (on purpose) seh mone desspress, and then the Penguins putting that into a commercial.

Nothing to do with Steigy or anything else. Bylsma purposefully said his name wrong as an insult (Yohe said something similar, actually), and the Penguins condoned it.

I will respond to the rest later, in the middle of something.

 

[Corvidae]

Moreover, if my memory is correct - and perhaps it's not, someone can correct me - I believe Lovejoy improved INSTANTLY upon arriving in Anaheim.

It's not like he gradually developed. Again, if I recall correctly, he simply got into a situation that suited him, and he performed better. For the Pens to think he suddenly became a different/better player in his 30s is asinine. But they did the same thing with Scuderi. (And, to a lesser degree, Kunitz and Dupuis)

I unfortunately believe that you are correct. If not instantly, it was within a few months.

Maybe he'll finally find out who did it... and do something about it. (24/7 reference)

 

[drpepper]

I'm referring to Dan Bylsma calling him (on purpose) seh mone desspress, and then the Penguins putting that into a commercial.

Nothing to do with Steigy or anything else. Bylsma purposefully said his name wrong as an insult (Yohe said something similar, actually), and the Penguins condoned it.

I will respond to the rest later, in the middle of something.

To be honest, I never listened to Bylsma interviews or anything else if I could help it as his speaking style drove me crazy.

So, I must have missed that.

I am not terribly surprised that a non-French speaker struggled with Simon.

 

[IcedCapp]

To be honest, I never listened to Bylsma interviews or anything else if I could help it as his speaking style drove me crazy.

So, I must have missed that.

I am not terribly surprised that a non-French speaker struggled with Simon.

I don't have an issue with someone struggling with a name. Bylsma was doing it on purpose/maliciously.

 

[IcedCapp]

There's nothing to really explain here. Almost universally coaches prefer vets. They are less work, and they are predictable and usually conservative.

It happens to almost every coach and team in the league and in many other sports.

Then, there's the past 12 months:



Shero was fired because he couldn't produce results (playoff wins and a Stanley Cup) not because he was unlikeable or that the owners disagreed with the way he planned and handled the team (signing vets, drafting defensemen).



Bylsma was fired in a way that is very familiar in other corporate settings. It may not be familiar to hockey, but that comes straight out of the Fortune 500 playbook.



Lemieux and Burkle directly cited "grit and character," speed (referencing Montreal), surround Crosby and Malkin with the players to be successful, and bringing in "younger guys" that they drafted. (Source)

The team brought in Hornqvist, Downie, Spaling, and Comeau (the only one that originally addressed speed at all). They kept Dupuis, Kunitz, Scuderi, and Sutter (whose grit might be questionable but speed and character aren't). They played Bortuzzo and Despres. It sounds like they tried to sign and eventually traded for Winnik. They insisted Tocchet be an assistant coach.

Management assumed Dupuis and Kunitz would be healthy and productive preferably returning to 2013 shortened season levels of production in spite of the lack of success in the post-season. They traded for Hornqvist and eventually Perron.

For the young kids, see below.



Burkle said, "We’ve got forwards and D-men who we have drafted and didn’t always take advantage of them or done a lot with them," and "So we haven’t given those younger guys a chance. We haven’t gotten that right mix on the ice."

Burkle and Lemieux never brought up or mentioned any young player by name. Dejan brought up Despres, Lovejoy, and Letestu. Pens fans and this board in particular overemphasized a Despres reference that never happened that way.

Young players will get opportunities when they have pedigrees like Pouliot or KK. You'll notice that the interview didn't mention being capable of developing young players; only players that swim and don't doggy-paddle welcome.



Lemieux specifically corrected Dejan that they didn't want fighters, but "just players who have some grit and character"

I didn't see anything about standing up for each other in the interview. In particular, I could see the coach and management souring on that point as Downie has proven difficult to control.



I understand that Despres is your thing. But the Pens and specifically Steigy and Errey butcher everyone's names.

They frequently can't say Lapierre. I had to mute the TV during Kings and Carolina games for their slaughtering of Sekera.




I think that it's clear that in terms of scouting, drafting and developing the Pens have not changed much.

I think, in general, we're going to look at and see things differently, and there's probably not much meeting in the middle.

Outside of what Burkle and Mario said in the offseason, the Pens, at the start of this season, were big on standing up for one another.

The articles came out, the fluff pieces were done, all praising the notion of sticking up for one another.

Yes, Downie was a big part of that, and I totally understand why he might not always been on the coach's good side, but it goes beyond Downie. There is none of what we saw at the beginning of the year from anyone.

In fact, in a lot of aspects, if you went and watched the first month of this season and then watched the last month, they look like two unrelated teams. Some of that is injury-related, to be sure, but there are a lot of things that this team started doing at the beginning of the year that sort of just faded as the year went by.

As far as vets being the preferred drug of choice: totally. You see it with every team in every sport. But we're not talking about a preference for veteran players. We're talking about a preference for really really bad players coupled with an outright disdain for certain young players.

 

[drpepper]

I think, in general, we're going to look at and see things differently, and there's probably not much meeting in the middle.

Outside of what Burkle and Mario said in the offseason, the Pens, at the start of this season, were big on standing up for one another.

The articles came out, the fluff pieces were done, all praising the notion of sticking up for one another.

Yes, Downie was a big part of that, and I totally understand why he might not always been on the coach's good side, but it goes beyond Downie. There is none of what we saw at the beginning of the year from anyone.

In fact, in a lot of aspects, if you went and watched the first month of this season and then watched the last month, they look like two unrelated teams. Some of that is injury-related, to be sure, but there are a lot of things that this team started doing at the beginning of the year that sort of just faded as the year went by.

As far as vets being the preferred drug of choice: totally. You see it with every team in every sport. But we're not talking about a preference for veteran players. We're talking about a preference for really really bad players coupled with an outright disdain for certain young players.

I think we have agreement in the Pens total inability to deal with young player's development.

It is absolutely a preference for vets over young players. Lovejoy versus Despres currently and Kunitz versus Bennett currently do not have huge gaps in production or talent. The difference is that you (and this board) see the value in developing the younger players who have the potential to play better. While management and the coaching staff prefers relying on the veteran players in the hopes that they can re-capture their better play.

I disagree about the beginning of the year. This team and the team in the beginning of the year have very similar problems. The biggest difference is that in the beginning of the year those flaws were covered by a red-hot PP driven by unsustainable shooting percentages and by winning with luck.

Watch the Rangers or Islanders game from earlier in the year. It's the same team with the same problems.

 

[KIRK]

I still don't think Winnik with Crosby is a suitable answer for the long-term. I thought we wanted to get away from that type of concept, not recreate it. If the choice is between Winnik and Kunitz, then obviously Winnik is the better option, but I don't think Winnik and Hornqvist on the same line gives you the elements needed for a successful playoff line.

Maybe Downie then.

Maybe you see how a game is going and decide who, on a particular night, seems to be going better with Sid and Horny.

Look, it's no more palatable than Geno with Comeau-- Sid and Geno deserve better than this ****-- but it's still a step up from Kunitz as you said.

That's not bad. I would even consider venturing into the:

Winnik-Crosby-Perron
Comeau-Malkin-Hornqvist

possibility if things get stale.

Perron at RW and Horny with Geno makes a bad situation worse.

 

[R1P Frostt]

The Penguins played a fantastic game except for a few players (Kunitz). I hate bashing on Kunitz because as most players get older they tend to get much worse, but at the same time Kunitz is like a dead soul on the ice. Take ice time away from him or just trade him and give more time to the other kids on the team that are younger and desperately want to play for a fantastic team. On the brightside, we are still #3 in our division.

 

[IcedCapp]

The Penguins played a fantastic game except for a few players (Kunitz). I hate bashing on Kunitz because as most players get older they tend to get much worse, but at the same time Kunitz is like a dead soul on the ice. Take ice time away from him or just trade him and give more time to the other kids on the team that are younger and desperately want to play for a fantastic team. On the brightside, we are still #3 in our division.

as is usually the case with this team, the fans are bashing Kunitz' usage and the PR machine more than the player (IMO)

I think we, as a group, are usually fair to most players. Our strong reactions tend to be towards coverage/usage.

 

[MeticulouslyDishevel]

Jumbled thoughts going through this:

I had originally thought the issue with BB and Despres was vets feeling threatened. Orpik, Niskanen, Kunitz, Neal, Dupuis didn't want to be replaced by song snot-nosed brat. Especially since 3 of those 5 were scrappy people who clawed their way into an NHL lineup, and now some 1st round pick was just going to take it from them?

But that doesn't really explain Douglas Murray, Mark Eaton, Rob Scuderi, etc...

Then, there's the past 12 months:

1) Shero is fired, but, imo, actually liked by management.

2) Bylsma is fired in a humiliating way

3) the reason given for these terminations: poor use of kids, not surrounding Sid and Geno with help, and not standing up for each other (I think that was one of them)

4) then one of the kids they specifically mentioned (Despres) is traded, BB is persona non grata, Kunitz can do no wrong.

5) The team starts out the year sticking up for one another. Now, if you stick up for someone, you go to Anaheim or St. Louis and are insulted by being called nothing but a fighter.

6) one last thing on Despres. This team is owned by a French Canadian who basically condoned the team (coach and marketing) belittling Despres by purposefully butchering his French Canadian name.


Maybe it's just incompetence. Maybe it's tinfoil hate ****. But the Pens say one thing and do another. They've been this way for quite some time. The people we used to blame for this (Shero and Bylsma) are gone. The new people still do it.

What's the common denominator?

Maybe the players don't feel threatened by the Murray, Eaton and Scuderi types because they know that they don't really pose a threat to their jobs due to both age and skill level?

The interesting thing is that the vets have successfully held the young upstarts at bay. They've succeeded in getting almost all of the young guys marginalized or traded, with Maatta the only glaring exception. Typically an organization would push back against that type of thing, not enable it.

I think a team of anthropologists would have a field day (year? decade?) studying this team's social dynamics. There would be more than enough material for a full PBS-style nature documentary series complete with narration by Sir David Attenborough.

Holy hell they even have the coach making excuses for Kunitz - that's just really messed up.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Blows my mind. If you take Mario/Burkle interview AND Tocchet's PP discussion before being hired and replay it now - it will still stand true. Everyone on HF would be saying "YES.. 100% correct!"

Sooooo why does it still happen?

Exactly.

I have to say that it is comforting to come here with others who are just as dumbfounded about this organization. If one were to just listen to the team and the media (and yinzers), they would get to feeling like the only sane guy locked in an asylum.


Morehouse as Nurse Ratched?

 

[joeyjake5]

Maybe the 3 AGMs pushed hard for the Kunitz extension and the Scuderi contract when Ray was still here. It could be something as simple as them not wanting to eat crow because they don't want to look bad to ownership for pushing those deals. Pretty much the only thing that makes sense to me.

At some point in time, you have to correct the mistakes that you have made. Otherwise, you will just continue down the big dark hole of failure.