Lou Lamoriello roster building - reference/video request

[Triumph]

This is silly. So I guess Glen Sather and his 41 playoff series wins is not a good GM.
The 'way he left the franchise' is sadly the way about 10 of the NHL franchises are left every year - with a bunch of prospects that don't pan out and a bunch of veterans who underperform.

You have to win while your core is young, and before guys get paid.

I don't know how many other GMs would've been in a position to go for a cup after losing Parise (good non-sign), Clarkson (good non-sign), Kovy (wtf was that?), and Brodeur in quick succession - the reload of the last was a ginger bust due to injury and defensive play. The pipeline of young D prospects that looked so promising all kinda busted out except Larsson turned into Hall and Merrill is lumbering around somewhere.

Do you know many GMs that would have survived that?

Whilst I am rationalizing and sound like an apoligist (I am) - I own that the drafting was absolutely terrible, and that the team has been awful for just about the longest stretch in its history. '83 was a clown show, '88 gave us hope, and by '92 it was clear we were going to be a good team that broke through in '94 when Marty showed up.

The current 6 year drought post-Lou has been just as dark with only the glimmer of one playoff run with Hall carrying us to make it look better. We're still probably another 5 years out from contending for a cup. That's pretty tough.

Almost no teams are left as bereft as Lou left them in 2015 when he stepped down as GM. The team was the oldest in the league, it had a weak prospect base because it had selected not at all, 4th, 29th, not at all, and 30th in the previous 5 1st rounds, and it did not have many promising young players on the team at the time - the list was basically Henrique, Severson, and Larsson for players 25 and under who looked like they were something and Henrique turned 25 in 2015.

Even if you grant the Devils the reality that has Parise and Kovalchuk (and get rid of Schneider), there's still a ton of holes on the team that are not being filled by the prospects. It's clearly a train to nowhere.

It is the fact that this still has to be impressed on people here is part of why Lou still gets 'bashed'. The 2015 Devils were a once in a decade event, maybe not even that.

 

[JrFischer54]

He gave us 25 great years of a winning culture and being competitive every season, which we've never had before or since and few other franchises ever get to begin with, but he kept the 29th pick in 2012 so that and rolling out some memeworthy plugs at the end cancels all that out, plus how dare he only win three Cups with a mid-market team instead of 7 or 8! The nerve of Lou having at worst the second most accomplished organization throughout three decades arguably only behind Detroit, and that cycle came to a hard end when it finally ended too. Winning cycles can't last forever, even with winning GM's.

And you may sniff at 100-point seasons where the team loses in the first or even second round but you can't always control what happens in a seven-game series either. I'd take some of those 'meaningless' 100-point seasons gladly over the crap we've had the last two years where the entirety of the season was actually meaningless and noncompetitive.

if he responsible for the cup wins then he 1000000000000000000000% is responsible for the way he left this franchise in complete shambles. a great gm would recognize the team needs to be retooled/built but not lou! hes exempt from this because why? hes old?i've legit read people say this on here as an excuse because hes in his 70s you want him to rebuild a team? silly me but yeah if hes working for that team then yes! or resign and go elsewhere instead of running it further into the ground!


no one is denying that lou was tremendous for this franchise he drafted a core group and ran them as long as he could until they stopped producing its just the back half of that time he didn't fill out the pieces as they slowly went away which to me A GREAT GM would be doing. instead? he doubles down then triples down and then takes another mortgage out on the house! then when the bill comes do? see ya i'm going to the leafs!

 

[billingtons ghost]

Yeah most of this is just nonsensical...The poor drafting for nearly a decade has literally nothing to do with Parise/Kovy leaving, Clarkson not being re-signed, etc etc.

Most teams enter rebuilds with assets that they can sell off for decent prices....hell, look at what the Rangers did.

the Devils had what, 42 year old Jaromir Jagr and Zidlicky? And thats basically it. Other than that, they had to start from scratch because of what Lou and Conte left behind. That is not "the way about 10 NHL franchises are left every year".

LOL. This line alone should qualify this post for one of the stupidist of the year. Yes, look at the Rangers did. What, exactly? Shattenkirk and McDonaugh are anchoring Tampa Bay's run to the cup. You crack me up. So, they can afford to BUY whomever they want, still don't win anything and somehow that allows you to point to their model as a blueprint of success, whilst bashing a guy who's whole philosophy was making sure a single player isn't bigger than the team.

Let's point out Jagr and Zidlicky - strictly based upon their age and not on their effectiveness (because by all accounts, as stopgaps, they were terrific signings.)

Yes, poor drafting sunk him. Absolutely that is true, and it is hard to find a team that drafted more poorly than we did.

But I think we all agree here that he's in no spot to 'rebuild a franchise from scratch' - and we also agree that this was NEVER his style - that he was always about reloading - and that we might never know if he possibly COULD build a franchise from scratch.

What he's been good at is adding character guys, filling needs and building a team identity.

I don't see how any of that particularly changed as he's gotten older - so I don't think he owes us anything for 4 or 5 years of bad hockey.

At what year do we stop saying "Lou's fault" - because 7 seems like a pretty high number.

 

[JrFischer54]

Man Lou is looking good in that Isles role right now meanwhile we are still a shit show. A team with the talent level of the Islanders should not be in the ECF, Long Island can thank Lou and Trotz.

stir that pot baby!

isle fans can really thank snow for the team he drafted.

 

[JrFischer54]

I forgot it was 7 years. My point was saying Ray should have traded Schneider when he had 6-7 years left on that deal is not a reasonable criticism. It would have helped the tank enormously but trading a goaltender, particularly when he’s you lone remaining star, at the time when he’s locked up longterm isn’t something teams generally do when they don’t have another player to replace them. It wouldn’t have been an easy trade to get a good return considering how the goalie market is and the risk involved with that large a deal. He had a NTC so the trade would have to be to a contender, or at least a near contender, which might have been doable but not a slam dunk. And of course Ray had two off-seasons to make that move before Cory’s steep decline made that contract unmovable.

I think Lou was arguably the best GM in his prime because he was working with more financial constraints than Holland or Lacroix. This team was relatively cash poor under the original ownership. They got a influx of money under YankeeNets but they mostly cared about their cable empire while Vanderbeek was your typical financial industry vulture/charlatan. Devils ownership went from small potatoes to messy to borderline financial improprieties and/or bankruptcy so people are underestimating how critical his elite stewardship was to bringing this franchise to respectability and keeping it there.

And to tie this back to Cory, only two things Lou did that still annoy the crap out of me 1) taking Niedermayer to arbitration after he won the Norris when he wanted a long term deal 2) trading for Schneider and giving him that deal so he could singlehandedly win games on a bad team.

I also would love to know the inside scoop about how the Kovy contract mess actually happened since Lou is so well respected and the league was so pissed, but that’s just for the tea.

no team would even remotely touch that cory contract at that point. once he signed that extension he was retiring a devil. other teams would've known about his injury risk and wouldn't have even touched him

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

LOL. This line alone should qualify this post for one of the stupidist of the year. Yes, look at the Rangers did. What, exactly? Shattenkirk and McDonaugh are anchoring Tampa Bay's run to the cup. You crack me up. So, they can afford to BUY whomever they want, still don't win anything and somehow that allows you to point to their model as a blueprint of success, whilst bashing a guy who's whole philosophy was making sure a single player isn't bigger than the team.

Let's point out Jagr and Zidlicky - strictly based upon their age and not on their effectiveness (because by all accounts, as stopgaps, they were terrific signings.)

Yes, poor drafting sunk him. Absolutely that is true, and it is hard to find a team that drafted more poorly than we did.

But I think we all agree here that he's in no spot to 'rebuild a franchise from scratch' - and we also agree that this was NEVER his style - that he was always about reloading - and that we might never know if he possibly COULD build a franchise from scratch.

What he's been good at is adding character guys, filling needs and building a team identity.

I don't see how any of that particularly changed as he's gotten older - so I don't think he owes us anything for 4 or 5 years of bad hockey.

At what year do we stop saying "Lou's fault" - because 7 seems like a pretty high number.

dude, WHAT? What are you even talking about?

The Rangers had:
Two 1sts in 2017 (theirs and Arizona's from the Stepan/Raanta trade)
Three 1sts in 2018 (theirs, Boston's from the Rick Nash trade and Tampa's from the McDonagh/Miller trade)
Two firsts in 2019 (theirs and they traded Winnipeg's back to them for Trouba that they initially acquired for Kevin Hayes)
Two firsts in 2020 (theirs and Carolina's from the Skjei trade)

They had assets to trade off at the start of their rebuild (which started in ~2017) which is why they have already caught up to where we are. That is what, five extra first round picks over the past 3-4 years? Where do you think the Devils would be if they had five extra first round picks at the start of their re-build?

At the start of the Devils re-build, they had the carcasses of Jagr and Zidlicky to trade off. Thats it. Just this past year is when we've finally had some assets to sell that were actually worth a decent price in Blake Coleman and Taylor Hall

and it hasn't been 7 years. Lou and Conte ran the 2015 draft so its been MAYBE 5. And you've seen how long it has taken because again, the cupboard was bare when he left.

 

[billingtons ghost]

if he responsible for the cup wins then he 1000000000000000000000% is responsible for the way he left this franchise in complete shambles. a great gm would recognize the team needs to be retooled/built but not lou! hes exempt from this because why? hes old?i've legit read people say this on here as an excuse because hes in his 70s you want him to rebuild a team? silly me but yeah if hes working for that team then yes! or resign and go elsewhere instead of running it further into the ground!


no one is denying that lou was tremendous for this franchise he drafted a core group and ran them as long as he could until they stopped producing its just the back half of that time he didn't fill out the pieces as they slowly went away which to me A GREAT GM would be doing. instead? he doubles down then triples down and then takes another mortgage out on the house! then when the bill comes do? see ya i'm going to the leafs!

I don't know if he thought he could still get by with Elias and friends - having had 80+ point teams year after year - even when missing the playoffs - the hope was Schneider, Zajac, Henrique, Larsson, Jacobson, Gelinas and Merrill would turn into a new core. Didn't work out, obviously.

So who is the young 'core' today? Nico, Hughes, Bratt... Coleman is gone - Schneider is gone Zajac? Severson?

 

[NJDevs26]

no one is denying that lou was tremendous for this franchise he drafted a core group and ran them as long as he could until they stopped producing its just the back half of that time he didn't fill out the pieces as they slowly went away which to me A GREAT GM would be doing. instead? he doubles down then triples down and then takes another mortgage out on the house! then when the bill comes do? see ya i'm going to the leafs!

Other than Marty (who he did replace with Cory afterward) he did all that at least once from 1994-2012, it’s not like the same core was there all two decades.

And Lou didn’t leave us or burn the house down with the idea of leaving, he got replaced as GM and booted upstairs. Was he supposed to sit around and be a hood ornament team president with no power for owners that more or less fired him as GM?

 

[JrFischer54]

This is silly. So I guess Glen Sather and his 41 playoff series wins is not a good GM.
The 'way he left the franchise' is sadly the way about 10 of the NHL franchises are left every year - with a bunch of prospects that don't pan out and a bunch of veterans who underperform.

You have to win while your core is young, and before guys get paid.

I don't know how many other GMs would've been in a position to go for a cup after losing Parise (good non-sign), Clarkson (good non-sign), Kovy (wtf was that?), and Brodeur in quick succession - the reload of the last was a ginger bust due to injury and defensive play. The pipeline of young D prospects that looked so promising all kinda busted out except Larsson turned into Hall and Merrill is lumbering around somewhere.

Do you know many GMs that would have survived that?

Whilst I am rationalizing and sound like an apoligist (I am) - I own that the drafting was absolutely terrible, and that the team has been awful for just about the longest stretch in its history. '83 was a clown show, '88 gave us hope, and by '92 it was clear we were going to be a good team that broke through in '94 when Marty showed up.

The current 6 year drought post-Lou has been just as dark with only the glimmer of one playoff run with Hall carrying us to make it look better. We're still probably another 5 years out from contending for a cup. That's pretty tough.

the bolded all of that is exactly why I bash lou. 1 don't let your key players hit ufa 2 if you think they are going to go ufa then look into dealing them also if the pipeline of young d bust who's fault is that? the gm!!!!!!!! from putting his son in charge of the minor league team which was constantly under performing to his drafting buddy conte. that is 100000000000% on lou!

 

[billingtons ghost]

dude, WHAT? What are you even talking about?

The Rangers had:
Two 1sts in 2017 (theirs and Arizona's from the Stepan/Raanta trade)
Three 1sts in 2018 (theirs, Boston's from the Rick Nash trade and Tampa's from the McDonagh/Miller trade)
Two firsts in 2019 (theirs and they traded Winnipeg's back to them for Trouba that they initially acquired for Kevin Hayes)
Two firsts in 2020 (theirs and Carolina's from the Skjei trade)

They had assets to trade off at the start of their rebuild (which started in ~2017) which is why they have already caught up to where we are. That is what, five extra first round picks over the past 3-4 years? Where do you think the Devils would be if they had five extra first round picks at the start of their re-build?

At the start of the Devils re-build, they had the carcasses of Jagr and Zidlicky to trade off. Thats it. Just this past year is when we've finally had some assets to sell that were actually worth a decent price in Blake Coleman and Taylor Hall

and it hasn't been 7 years. Lou and Conte ran the 2015 draft so its been MAYBE 5. And you've seen how long it has taken because again, the cupboard was bare when he left.

Ok - so following your lead, since 2017, Shero could have:
1. dealt Schneider
2. dealt Zajac
3. dealt Severson
4. dealt Merrill instead of letting him go for Mueller
5. dealt Larsson (he did, for Hall - and we got back some good pieces)
6. dealt Wood

Probably not a huge return for the above, but the Skjei and Hayes trades were straight up robbery...

The Rangers aren't anything... yet.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Ok - so following your lead, since 2017, Shero could have:
1. dealt Schneider
2. dealt Zajac
3. dealt Severson
4. dealt Merrill instead of letting him go for Mueller
5. dealt Larsson (he did, for Hall - and we got back some good pieces)
6. dealt Wood

Probably not a huge return for the above, but the Skjei and Hayes trades were straight up robbery...

The Rangers aren't anything... yet.

He reportedly did try to trade Zajac this year but Zajac blocked it due to his NTC

Severson is still a young player. Why would you trade a young player in a rebuild?

Merrill stinks and had no value

Wood stinks and would MAYBE return a 2nd or 3rd round pick...big whoop

 

[billingtons ghost]

the bolded all of that is exactly why I bash lou. 1 don't let your key players hit ufa 2 if you think they are going to go ufa then look into dealing them also if the pipeline of young d bust who's fault is that? the gm!!!!!!!! from putting his son in charge of the minor league team which was constantly under performing to his drafting buddy conte. that is 100000000000% on lou!

Not if you're making a run at the cup. And they did.

 

[billingtons ghost]

He reportedly did try to trade Zajac this year but Zajac blocked it due to his NTC

Severson is still a young player. Why would you trade a young player in a rebuild?

Merrill stinks and had no value

Wood stinks and would MAYBE return a 2nd or 3rd round pick...big whoop

Your post above mentions Skjei, no?

 

[billingtons ghost]

He reportedly did try to trade Zajac this year but Zajac blocked it due to his NTC

Severson is still a young player. Why would you trade a young player in a rebuild?

Merrill stinks and had no value

Wood stinks and would MAYBE return a 2nd or 3rd round pick...big whoop

Clarkson 'stunk' for all of the same reasons and yet for some reason the Leafs had to have him. If you are going into the playoffs, the market is pretty hot for guys who are big and fast.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Your post above mentions Skjei, no?

sure I guess if someone overpaid like crazy then yeah I would trade them....kind of like Shero did with Blake Coleman?

not sure what that has to do with the overall point though?

 

[Triumph]

The 'Lou didn't leave us in such bad shape' crowd would've been absolutely livid had one of his draft picks who looked like a decent player been sent away for a pick. That's why it's funny to me how much guff Shero is getting for not immediately tearing everything down to the studs - that was just never the plan here.

 

[billingtons ghost]

The 'Lou didn't leave us in such bad shape' crowd would've been absolutely livid had one of his draft picks who looked like a decent player been sent away for a pick. That's why it's funny to me how much guff Shero is getting for not immediately tearing everything down to the studs - that was just never the plan here.

The whole string of posts above were criticizing Lou for not tearing it down to the studs, but instead reloading with retreads. I point out that Shero could've torn it down to the studs, and didn't... We had all of the earmarks of a tanking team that was tearing it down to the studs - two first overall picks and some completely abysmal seasons. We end up getting Subban as if we were going to march to the cup.

So what is the approach exactly?

I don't get how you can play both sides of the coin in this - tossing blame (Lou should've done what the Rangers did!!!) and then Shero gets a pass?

My overall point is that is damn hard to monday morning quarterback this stuff and assign blame -

Ok - you're in the GM chair, your team is on its way to a 102 win season, you have Elias and Brodeur winding down, and you have 30 goal scorers Kovy, Parise, and Clarkson to deal with as potential UFAs and an aging core (outside of Henrique) Tear it down? Get some first rounders back before they walk?

Geez.

 

[HitemwiththeHyne]

Never change hfboards. I see Lou’s legacy is still discussed. He has moved onto to his second franchise.

Devilis have move on from Shero and on their second GM.

 

[Triumph]

The whole string of posts above were criticizing Lou for not tearing it down to the studs, but instead reloading with retreads. I point out that Shero could've torn it down to the studs, and didn't... We had all of the earmarks of a tanking team that was tearing it down to the studs - two first overall picks and some completely abysmal seasons. We end up getting Subban as if we were going to march to the cup.

So what is the approach exactly?

I don't get how you can play both sides of the coin in this - tossing blame (Lou should've done what the Rangers did!!!) and then Shero gets a pass?

My overall point is that is damn hard to monday morning quarterback this stuff and assign blame -

Ok - you're in the GM chair, your team is on its way to a 102 win season, you have Elias and Brodeur winding down, and you have 30 goal scorers Kovy, Parise, and Clarkson to deal with as potential UFAs and an aging core (outside of Henrique) Tear it down? Get some first rounders back before they walk?

Geez.

Yeah, there's one person who I absolutely do not agree with in this thread even though it looks like I might. I don't think that Lou should've done a whole lot different at the pro level. I think that is just the natural endpoint for teams in the spot he was in - you keep going until you can't anymore. Given what the Devils were working with, there wasn't a half-rebuild possible - there's not much difference between finishing with 70 points and finishing with 80 points, and doing either one repeatedly will get you thrown out of the GM chair, Stanley Cups or not.

I don't think Lou should've done what the Rangers did and that is because it was not possible. The Devils did not have players like McDonagh and Stepan that they could trade. That's the point that's being made. I don't think Lou should've been a seller at the 2013 deadline. It's easy to have wanted him to have been, now, in 2020, 7 years removed from that season.

But it just has to be acknowledged where the Devils were in 2015. In bad shape and getting worse - that's the critical part - the prospect base was still getting worse.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

No one said Lou SHOULD HAVE done what the Rangers did. All I said was look at what they had at the start of their rebuild in 2017 compared to what the Devils had at the start of their rebuild in 2015. Go and take a look at the rosters. Parise, Clarkson, and Kovalchuk were all gone by then so I am not sure why they keep getting brought up.

It isn't Monday morning Quarterbacking if me (and many others here) were calling Lou out for this stuff for YEARS. Its not like this is a recent revelation.

 

[Fear the Wushu]

stir that pot baby!

isle fans can really thank snow for the team he drafted.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic but my point is that they are an average team led by great management and coaching. They were abysmal under snow Snow and Weight, worse than us.

 

[JrFischer54]

Not if you're making a run at the cup. And they did.

That team going into the playoffs were far from a cup contender. They just went on a run if you think differently well I can't help you

 

[JrFischer54]

The whole string of posts above were criticizing Lou for not tearing it down to the studs, but instead reloading with retreads. I point out that Shero could've torn it down to the studs, and didn't... We had all of the earmarks of a tanking team that was tearing it down to the studs - two first overall picks and some completely abysmal seasons. We end up getting Subban as if we were going to march to the cup.

So what is the approach exactly?

I don't get how you can play both sides of the coin in this - tossing blame (Lou should've done what the Rangers did!!!) and then Shero gets a pass?

My overall point is that is damn hard to monday morning quarterback this stuff and assign blame -

Ok - you're in the GM chair, your team is on its way to a 102 win season, you have Elias and Brodeur winding down, and you have 30 goal scorers Kovy, Parise, and Clarkson to deal with as potential UFAs and an aging core (outside of Henrique) Tear it down? Get some first rounders back before they walk?

Geez.

shero would've got a bunch of 3rd round picks for the garbage that lou left him. he did have to ice a nhl caliber team. the rangers had legit talent that they rightfully moved for quality pieces. i wonder who would've commanded a bigger return ryan mcdonugh or john merrill? hmmmmmmmmmm


imo even knowing this team made the finals the right move with zach would've been to deal him. we as fans know now how gone he was i am going to make a huge assumption that lou knew at the time he was going to be gone too. so yes i would've dealt him. clarkson i would've kept because his real value didn't materialize until the playoff run and the start of the following year but at that point the following year? see ya clarky! whats lou do instead? keeps a super late first round pick trades away a top 10 pick for a goalie doubling down on his "win now". he isn't exactly that good at win now rostering imo

 

[Guttersniped]

Ok - so following your lead, since 2017, Shero could have:
1. dealt Schneider
2. dealt Zajac
3. dealt Severson
4. dealt Merrill instead of letting him go for Mueller
5. dealt Larsson (he did, for Hall - and we got back some good pieces)
6. dealt Wood

Probably not a huge return for the above, but the Skjei and Hayes trades were straight up robbery...

The Rangers aren't anything... yet.

Merrill went in the Vegas expansion draft and NJ will lose another player to Seattle, that’s how it works. Considering what other team lost, Shea Theadore comes to mind, I can’t see how anyone can complain about Merrill. Hayes is big-sized center who was approaching UFA, Zajac didn’t have a movable contract and Schneider didn’t have a movable contract. I don’t know what everyone’s obsession with trading Wood is, he’s not a key piece of the core but he’s still 24 and Jimmy Vessey got the Rangers a 3rd. They only got a 2nd and a 3rd for Zuccarello, so not everybody gets them a 1st. (Also the Rangers traded Ryan Graves to Avalanche for another minor league who they ended up not qualifying at 2018 TDL, so not every move is magical.)

 

[Guttersniped]

Clarkson 'stunk' for all of the same reasons and yet for some reason the Leafs had to have him. If you are going into the playoffs, the market is pretty hot for guys who are big and fast.

Clarkson scored 17 goals, as did Woods, and then scored 30 goals in a season so the comparison is nonsensical.