Lou Lamoriello roster building - reference/video request

[guitarguyvic]

Yes hardcore fans may get upset when people can’t let a single positive thing be said about the man who made the team a near dynasty (and kept it in existence) without insisting on bringing up whatever shortcomings he had at the end of his tenure here and downplaying his current successes. Who knew that hardcore sports fans could hold individuals who brought that much success to their favorite team in such high regard... the horror and audacity, it’s truly shocking!

 

[MadDevil]

Yes hardcore fans may get upset when people can’t let a single positive thing be said about the man who made the team a near dynasty (and kept it in existence) without insisting on bringing up whatever shortcomings he had at the end of his tenure here and downplaying his current successes. Who knew that hardcore sports fans could hold individuals who brought that much success to their favorite team in such high regard... the horror and audacity, it’s truly shocking!

What Lou did years ago with another team has jack shit to do with what he's done with the Islanders. And in case you missed it I said he's done a good job of managing them. He made a good hire in Trotz, who has subsequently gotten the most out of his players, most of whom were already in the organization when Lou took over.

It is possible to hold a player, coach, GM, etc. in high regard and not just be blindly loyal to them and treat every criticism of him as an assault on him or his legacy.

 

[guitarguyvic]

What Lou did years ago with another team has jack shit to do with what he's done with the Islanders. And in case you missed it I said he's done a good job of managing them. He made a good hire in Trotz, who has subsequently gotten the most out of his players, most of whom were already in the organization when Lou took over.

It is possible to hold a player, coach, GM, etc. in high regard and not just be blindly loyal to them and treat every criticism of him as an assault on him or his legacy.

This is a good misrepresentation of what actually happens in discussions about Lou. It’s very rare that someone ever actually talk about Lou’s tenure holistically....most of the time his name is brought up in only one of two ways: 1) Someone complaining about the current status of the team and then proceeding to lay out how it’s his fault because of how awful he was, or 2) someone bringing up the current success of the islanders.

#1 is not typically being presented in a way that one could interpret it as just levying a few criticisms on someone who is held in High regard. It routinely comes across as really quite the opposite...as if the successes are a footnote and he’s mostly reviled for how he left the team. It’s the equivalent of bashing Marty for being an AHL level goalie his last couple of years. #2 almost always results in people responding with doing #1.

So yeah...it’s pretty obvious that it doesn’t just boil down to “treating every criticism of him as an assault on his legacy”...it’s more like people here really do like to assault his legacy, or at minimum pretend like it doesn’t exist, and they are eager to bash his last few years with the organization at every opportunity presented. That bothers some of us who actually revere him on the same level as Marty, Stevens, etc.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Here’s another way to put it. I feel no need to highlight whatever shortcomings Lou had at the end. I’m not bitter or disgusted or resentful about how he left the org. Because he brought to this franchise way more than probably anyone else could have, and there’s really nothing he could do, no matter how bad, that could erase or undo that. But it seems many posters here are in fact resentful, bitter, and angry towards Lou. And to me that’s just...I don’t know...it screams of recency bias and just generally being really ungrateful.

But hey I guess that just means I’m “blindly loyal”.

 

[MartyOwns]

lol OP was just trying to find a video

 

[Darkauron]

Yeah this thread has been derailed.

 

[Nubmer6]

Yeah this thread has been derailed.

Well... This IS HFBoards

 

[NJDevs26]

Yeah this thread has been derailed.

To be technical it is talking about Lou and roster building lol. If the Lou debate wasn't in this thread, it'd be in the team thread (which is basically OT at this point since Lou isn't a Devil), or the ATL/OOT threads. Just don't go off the rails attacking 'each other'.

And if Brodeur couldn't find the clip - he claimed it was from a magazine article - nobody can anyway

 

[Tao Jersey Jones]

This isn't the video you're looking for.

It's really bad. I couldn't get past the name mispronunciation from a Boston fan who doesn't understand what Semak did for NJ. It is comprehensive I guess? Watch it muted if you must.

 

[Triumph]

Here’s another way to put it. I feel no need to highlight whatever shortcomings Lou had at the end. I’m not bitter or disgusted or resentful about how he left the org. Because he brought to this franchise way more than probably anyone else could have, and there’s really nothing he could do, no matter how bad, that could erase or undo that. But it seems many posters here are in fact resentful, bitter, and angry towards Lou. And to me that’s just...I don’t know...it screams of recency bias and just generally being really ungrateful.

But hey I guess that just means I’m “blindly loyal”.

You are blindly loyal.

If you're 25 and under I think being critical of Lou makes some sense because this is basically a lost decade, but that's just bad timing as a hockey fan. I don't think many fans here are that age, though some are. I'd get that side of it.

I don't think you have a good handle on this board's feelings towards Lou, though. Not even a little bit. You project this on to them because it's the only way you can justify things. Everybody who was of age for those Devils Stanley Cups knows how they got them and the people here who read enough and follow the league enough knows that losing is the price of success, almost inevitably. Lou built an incredible organization and is almost without peer in terms of sports excellence when he was in his prime.

It is the continued project to document the failures of the later Lou era not to castigate Lou, who at least at the pro level I think did a fine job up until the end, but to realize exactly what his successor(s) are working with.

 

[guitarguyvic]

You are blindly loyal.

If you're 25 and under I think being critical of Lou makes some sense because this is basically a lost decade, but that's just bad timing as a hockey fan. I don't think many fans here are that age, though some are. I'd get that side of it.

I don't think you have a good handle on this board's feelings towards Lou, though. Not even a little bit. You project this on to them because it's the only way you can justify things. Everybody who was of age for those Devils Stanley Cups knows how they got them and the people here who read enough and follow the league enough knows that losing is the price of success, almost inevitably. Lou built an incredible organization and is almost without peer in terms of sports excellence when he was in his prime.

It is the continued project to document the failures of the later Lou era not to castigate Lou, who at least at the pro level I think did a fine job up until the end, but to realize exactly what his successor(s) are working with.

If it were true that people are only trying to explain what Lou’s successors are working with, that doesn’t at all explain the consistent need for posters to jump in a discussion of the Islanders (for example) to bash Lou’s performance in his latter years here (while offering zero input on his legacy or performance as a whole).

You specifically may not be looking to castigate Lou but that’s certainly not the case generally here. I don’t know how you can look at the commentary and not see resentment and bitterness. It practically oozes through the computer screen.

 

[MadDevil]

There may be a few who are bitter and resent Lou, but I don't think there as many as you think. I think you unfairly put most, if not all, of those who criticize him into that group.

I think most (I would hope all, but every fanbase has idiots) Devils fans appreciate what Lou did in putting the franchise on the map and spoiling us with two decades of success. That shouldn't place him above criticism though. You can appreciate what someone did in the past AND be critical of what they've done more recently.

 

[None Shall Pass]

There may be a few who are bitter and resent Lou, but I don't think there as many as you think. I think you unfairly put most, if not all, of those who criticize him into that group.

I think most (I would hope all, but every fanbase has idiots) Devils fans appreciate what Lou did in putting the franchise on the map and spoiling us with two decades of success. That shouldn't place him above criticism though. You can appreciate what someone did in the past AND be critical of what they've done more recently.

That's where I am. I love Lou for everything he did for a vast majority of his time in New Jersey. But the loyalty to an obviously failing scouting department set this team back at the end of his term here.

 

[Triumph]

If it were true that people are only trying to explain what Lou’s successors are working with, that doesn’t at all explain the consistent need for posters to jump in a discussion of the Islanders (for example) to bash Lou’s performance in his latter years here (while offering zero input on his legacy or performance as a whole).

You specifically may not be looking to castigate Lou but that’s certainly not the case generally here. I don’t know how you can look at the commentary and not see resentment and bitterness. It practically oozes through the computer screen.

Not every post has to be bowing and scraping at Lou's legacy before they rightly point out the facts. Everyone is aware of what Lou means here. It is the people who think Lou should still be here or that Lou didn't leave the team in that bad a shape that sets me (and others) off. There aren't very many of them, but they definitely exist, and you are one of the latter group. I think Jeff Veillette said it best vis a vis Lou, though he was speaking of the Leafs and Lou:



The Islanders picked the right guy for a team with players largely around their prime, for a franchise that has struggled with legitimacy. The team has done much better than I would've expected, but evidently it's what Lou's good at is what's called for here. If he had to make trades or especially sign free agents, these days, that's not his forte.

 

[BxDevilsFan]

I love Lou. But that doesn't change the fact he did a horrible job here his last 5 to 10 years. He's still a HOF executive, he's great building teams with character but I think the game has passed him by, in terms of drafting and development

 

[guitarguyvic]

Not every post has to be bowing and scraping at Lou's legacy before they rightly point out the facts. Everyone is aware of what Lou means here. It is the people who think Lou should still be here or that Lou didn't leave the team in that bad a shape that sets me (and others) off. There aren't very many of them, but they definitely exist, and you are one of the latter group.

I don’t agree with either of those two things, which goes to show you’re not as in tune with the general tone of this board as you seem to think.

I know Lou needed to go and I’m well aware of his shortcomings, I simply don’t feel it’s appropriate to bring it up at every opportunity disproportionate to the good he did for this franchise. For reasons stated quite clearly and repeatedly. That you can’t grasp or understand that is precisely what is unfortunate about this board’s attitude towards Lou.

 

[Triumph]

I don’t agree with either of those two things, which goes to show you’re not as in tune with the general tone of this board as you seem to think.

I know Lou needed to go and I’m well aware of his shortcomings, I simply don’t feel it’s appropriate to bring it up at every opportunity disproportionate to the good he did for this franchise. For reasons stated quite clearly and repeatedly. That you can’t grasp or understand that is precisely what is unfortunate about this board’s attitude towards Lou.

Your posts on this subject (not in this thread) do not indicate that you have a full understanding of the depth of the hole that the next GM was put into.

I can grasp and understand that - you feel compelled to point out 'hey guys, Lou was an HOF GM who won 3 Stanley Cups with a mid-market team' every single time anyone runs down the end of his tenure here, and you start to bellyache about anyone who doesn't mention that in every single post about him. I'm aware. I know. I am grateful to Lou for that. I have said so, so many times that the team is probably only still in New Jersey because of Lou Lamoriello. But I don't have heroes. I don't worship people. It's upsetting that Lou lost his touch - that the game passed him by in some crucial ways. It's understandable, but upsetting. And again, in some crucial ways, it did not.

The Lou talk will go away when the team starts winning consistently. I do think that posting that video was not the right choice either.

 

[Guttersniped]

The Islanders picked the right guy for a team with players largely around their prime, for a franchise that has struggled with legitimacy. The team has done much better than I would've expected, but evidently it's what Lou's good at is what's called for here. If he had to make trades or especially sign free agents, these days, that's not his forte.

I mostly agree with the tweet but while Pageau is getting 3rd line center ice time he has 8 pt (6g 2a) in 11 games which is 4th most points (and 2nd most goals) on the Isles. And this isn’t a fluke, in 16-17 he had the most goals and 5th most points on the Sens. Lou also signed their starting playoff goalie, who has playing serious minutes as well.

Other than Pageau, he took Martin in a cap dump, signed Komarov to 3m/4yr deal, signed Brassard to a 1 yr deal, rented Greene and signed Lehner then replaced him Varlamov. The goalie swap seems like a potential misstep and it feels like you shouldn’t have to go four years with Komarov but these moves are all ok or better.

It’s the long term deals with modified NTCs to his entire forwards core that gets the most criticism: Eberle (30) and Bailey (30) are signed to ‘24, Nelson (28) to ‘25, and Lee (30) and Pageau (27) to ‘26. These aren’t as bad as some make them out to be, Lee’s deal is the most daunting since you’re paying him for a 40 goal season that he’s likely never repeating, but there’s a whole lot of them and the modified NTC make them very hard to move.

Lou’s approach to cap management still seems to be don’t worry about it when spending and then figure out a way to get out of the trouble your spending gets you in down the road. It’s not my preferred approach because you lose flexibility and are potentially forced to make some ugly sacrifices but I wouldn’t be surprised if Ladd and Boychuk magically ends up on the LTIR and Lou gets it done.

 

[My3Sons]

Lou is a great executive but like all human beings has flaws and limitations. He was exactly the right man for NJ for probably 20 years. That’s a heck of a run in pro sports. The wheels came off the wagon at the end but we will never know how much of that was Lou versus ownership on certain things and how much of the bad drafting was penny pinching on scouts?

 

[MadDevil]

Part of it too was simply the price you pay for being good that long. It's hard to continually fill the pipeline with quality prospects when you're drafting late every year or dealing away picks when in "win now" mode. I mean from 2005 until 2015 we had 2 picks in the top 10 (Larsson and Zacha). In 3 of those drafts we had no 1st round pick at all. The other 1st round picks we did have were no higher than 20th overall. Obviously that doesn't excuse Conte from his drafting. Even with having to draft later he did a poor job for a while, and Lou sticking with him so long was probably his biggest mistake.

 

[billingtons ghost]

The day the Isles hired Lou, my post on the Isles board was that:
Lou's best days at building rosters, assessing talent, and making trades are long behind him... but if your organization needs a rudder, and the Isles and Leafs needed a rudder - there's no one better.

People bristle at silly things like 'facial hair' and 'social media bans' - but as someone who's worked in offices for a long time, toxic workplaces have been built on lesser things like 'refrigerator space' and 'coffee machines'.

The guy's methods at assessing character, getting buy-in, at subtracting egos and making the plumbers feel valued all still apply, and obviously make a difference.

Do I want him back? No way. Do I regret we've lost our winning culture to a large degree? Yep - and a large part of that is on him and his drafting - but a large part of it is also how things have been handled.

He's a huge frigging deal as a rudder to organizations, and some folks seem to have a hard time acknowledging that fact - despite all of his GM shortcoming.

The only word that matters in all management everywhere in all fields and businesses (and write this down, kids) is: 'Accountability'. And as long as Fitz/Ruff and squad bring that to the table, and make players accountable for their own success - we'll be better. It was clear that their were plenty of distractions and it was 'ok to lose' at some point last year.

 

[My3Sons]

The day the Isles hired Lou, my post on the Isles board was that:
Lou's best days at building rosters, assessing talent, and making trades are long behind him... but if your organization needs a rudder, and the Isles and Leafs needed a rudder - there's no one better.

People bristle at silly things like 'facial hair' and 'social media bans' - but as someone who's worked in offices for a long time, toxic workplaces have been built on lesser things like 'refrigerator space' and 'coffee machines'.

The guy's methods at assessing character, getting buy-in, at subtracting egos and making the plumbers feel valued all still apply, and obviously make a difference.

Do I want him back? No way. Do I regret we've lost our winning culture to a large degree? Yep - and a large part of that is on him and his drafting - but a large part of it is also how things have been handled.

He's a huge frigging deal as a rudder to organizations, and some folks seem to have a hard time acknowledging that fact - despite all of his GM shortcoming.

The only word that matters in all management everywhere in all fields and businesses (and write this down, kids) is: 'Accountability'. And as long as Fitz/Ruff and squad bring that to the table, and make players accountable for their own success - we'll be better. It was clear that their were plenty of distractions and it was 'ok to lose' at some point last year.

This might be the best post I’ve ever read about Lamoriello. Just brilliant. Thanks for crystallizing a myriad of complex and sometimes conflicting concepts. For those who think that it’s as simple as loving Lou or hating him you are spot on with why both sides need to consider the other.

 

[JrFischer54]

The Islanders still have 3 more series left to win. But I do enjoy how winning 1 round and a game in that round is 'winning the Cup'.

Lou didn't do anything to this Islanders team other than hire a coach and bring in a few pieces at the fringes. Pageau is the only major acquisition he made. It's like giving him credit for the 88 team.

interesting take (which I agree on) fair to say then that people bashing garth snow was a little premature? not saying by you but mostly everyone on here

 

[JrFischer54]

The day the Isles hired Lou, my post on the Isles board was that:
Lou's best days at building rosters, assessing talent, and making trades are long behind him... but if your organization needs a rudder, and the Isles and Leafs needed a rudder - there's no one better.

People bristle at silly things like 'facial hair' and 'social media bans' - but as someone who's worked in offices for a long time, toxic workplaces have been built on lesser things like 'refrigerator space' and 'coffee machines'.

The guy's methods at assessing character, getting buy-in, at subtracting egos and making the plumbers feel valued all still apply, and obviously make a difference.

Do I want him back? No way. Do I regret we've lost our winning culture to a large degree? Yep - and a large part of that is on him and his drafting - but a large part of it is also how things have been handled.

He's a huge frigging deal as a rudder to organizations, and some folks seem to have a hard time acknowledging that fact - despite all of his GM shortcoming.

The only word that matters in all management everywhere in all fields and businesses (and write this down, kids) is: 'Accountability'. And as long as Fitz/Ruff and squad bring that to the table, and make players accountable for their own success - we'll be better. It was clear that their were plenty of distractions and it was 'ok to lose' at some point last year.

its funny you bring up toxic work place as an example but fail to connect lou to one. Who isn't exactly someone who creates friendly workplaces either

 

[JrFischer54]

The majority of the Islanders roster was already there when Lou took over. He hired the best coach available and he's gotten the most out of that roster. I think it's fair to say he's done a good job of managing the Islanders, but the actual building of the team was mostly the guy before him.

It's also not like the Islanders were a garbage team for years before Lou took over. The three previous years to their 80 point season they had 94, 100, and 101 points. If anything I think it just proves what a horrendous coach Doug Weight was.

which is exactly why i have a lot of hope now that hynes is gone and we have a real nhl coach coming in.



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time to stir the pot....can you make the argument that lou is overrated as a gm?