Lou Lamoriello roster building - reference/video request

[devilsblood]

if you refuse to do something then I’m going to say that is probably because you can’t do it. ESP if your legacy and job are on the line?

Your opinion on what is probable doesn't make something true.

And his time with the Isle's won't answer that question either.

His time with the Isles has already proven though that he can be the GM of a team that wins rounds in the playoffs, no matter how much credit we want to give him for it.

 

[NJDevs26]

if you refuse to do something then I’m going to say that is probably because you can’t do it. ESP if your legacy and job are on the line?

His legacy was never on the line except from what have you done for me lately people and others who weren't around for the glory days. His legacy wasn't coming down to his last five years here after his first twenty-five. That's like saying Marty's legacy was on the line from 2012-14.

 

[devilsblood]

He's reluctant to do it because he's in his 70's. There's no way Lou at his age was going to undertake a five year process. All NY Jet fans remember the infamous Leon Hess line when he hired Rich Kotite...'I'm 80 years old, I want results now'. Nor is anyone going to hire Lou expecting a long-term rebuild at this point of his career.

Arguing whether he's incapable or not is a moot point, like devilsblood said he didn't want to do so when the time finally came, and that was the real issue with the end of his tenure here (that and Conte's horrible post-2005 drafting). He's certainly still capable of being a good win-now GM.

And as Shero's time with the Devils has shown, buying into a complete rebuild still comes with the possibility of getting the boot.

 

[devilsblood]

His legacy was never on the line except from what have you done for me lately people and others who weren't around for the glory days. His legacy wasn't coming down to his last five years here after his first twenty-five. That's like saying Marty's legacy was on the line from 2012-14.

I kind of glossed over that line. Lou's legacy was long ago cemented as evidenced by those 3 Stanley Cup banners hanging in the rafters.

 

[Triumph]

We don't know this. We do know his last bunch of years with the Devils were terrible, but that, imo, was because he refused to start from scratch, not because he is incapable of doing so.

I mean, like NJDevs26 said, he won't do A because he's old, so nobody would hire him for that and he wouldn't want to do it, but we know how B is going to turn out because we're seeing what's going on with the Islanders. They are making a run now and are glad to be doing it. The team will not be in better shape vis a vis the cap and youth when he leaves.

 

[My3Sons]

And as Shero's time with the Devils has shown, buying into a complete rebuild still comes with the possibility of getting the boot.

Im not sure Shero embraced a complete rebuild. More like he tried to have both guns and butter and failed at both.

 

[MartyOwns]

Im not sure Shero embraced a complete rebuild. More like he tried to have both guns and butter and failed at both.

well, to embrace a complete rebuild you typically need players to sell off that are actually worth something. he walked into a pretty shitty position

 

[My3Sons]

well, to embrace a complete rebuild you typically need players to sell off that are actually worth something. he walked into a pretty shitty position

Sure but Shero could have tried dumping Schneider and Greene (I get they had NTCs and would have required coaxing) and Hall before he had to and not trading multiple seconds during his regime. I get it and it’s not like it was obvious at the time where the team was but in retrospect where the team is now is sort of where it should have been in 2016 as far as the seller mentality. Again I realize the team wants fans to enjoy the games and want to attend or watch and rooting for prospects several years away wouldn’t help with that.

 

[Triumph]

Sure but Shero could have tried dumping Schneider and Greene (I get they had NTCs and would have required coaxing) and Hall before he had to and not trading multiple seconds during his regime. I get it and it’s not like it was obvious at the time where the team was but in retrospect where the team is now is sort of where it should have been in 2016 as far as the seller mentality. Again I realize the team wants fans to enjoy the games and want to attend or watch and rooting for prospects several years away wouldn’t help with that.

He did. He asked all of the veterans if they wanted to be traded in the summer of 2017. All of them said no except presumably Cammalleri, who he had to buy out.

 

[My3Sons]

He did. He asked all of the veterans if they wanted to be traded in the summer of 2017. All of them said no except presumably Cammalleri, who he had to buy out.

That’s not the same thing. Asking if they want out as a courtesy is a kindness. Telling them the organization is going young and they can watch from the press box or give him five teams they’d be willing to go to is ruthless. Presumably there is a middle ground somewhere in there. Shero also asked Hall if he wanted to be traded after his initial season with the team. He didn’t need to do that.

 

[Triumph]

That’s not the same thing. Asking if they want out as a courtesy is a kindness. Telling them the organization is going young and they can watch from the press box or give him five teams they’d be willing to go to is ruthless. Presumably there is a middle ground somewhere in there. Shero also asked Hall if he wanted to be traded after his initial season with the team. He didn’t need to do that.

It's not a kindness. Those players, besides Hall, all had NTCs. It's a necessity if you want to trade them. Now yes, I understand that NTCs are malleable, but the problem is that if players don't say yes, they're only going to want to go to the places they want to go to, which limits the return. And honestly, Greene and Schneider and Zajac coming off 2016-17 were not worth anything, really, and obviously Cammalleri wasn't because they bought him out, and he only played for one more season, being traded mid-year.

The team made the playoffs the next year.

I don't think you get the Devils' job in 2015 by saying 'I'm going to tank for 5 years'. Anybody could've done that given what the Devils had at the time. You get it by having a plan to rebuild the talent in the organization and improve while also drafting high. It's a plate-spinning act that Shero lost, but it's also not clear that he got fired just because of the results.

 

[My3Sons]

It's not a kindness. Those players, besides Hall, all had NTCs. It's a necessity if you want to trade them. Now yes, I understand that NTCs are malleable, but the problem is that if players don't say yes, they're only going to want to go to the places they want to go to, which limits the return. And honestly, Greene and Schneider and Zajac coming off 2016-17 were not worth anything, really, and obviously Cammalleri wasn't because they bought him out, and he only played for one more season, being traded mid-year.

The team made the playoffs the next year.

I don't think you get the Devils' job in 2015 by saying 'I'm going to tank for 5 years'. Anybody could've done that given what the Devils had at the time. You get it by having a plan to rebuild the talent in the organization and improve while also drafting high. It's a plate-spinning act that Shero lost, but it's also not clear that he got fired just because of the results.

I think your last point is valid. I doubt he would have been hired telling them to set fire to everything and burn it completely down and start over. But as others have noted the attempts to be competitive haven’t worked and there was some opportunity cost in picks and prospects that were invested. Had he gone all in on the Hall train he might have traded first round picks away so at least that was avoided.

 

[Guttersniped]

Schneider only had one good year while under his six year contract. Remember that when Lou traded for him in 2013 he had two year left before he was a UFA but Lou gave him that big six year deal in 2014 after Cory had been a 1b to Brodeur. It was a bit of a shocker since Lou had never locked up guys a year early like that and Cory really hadn’t shown he deserved that contract since he still hadn’t been a full time starter. Of course, he was incredible the next season as a starter, worthy of that salary, though the exact opposite of what a rebuilding team needed.

His contract started with his third year in NJ and second as starter in 2015-16, and in that season was Cory nearly as top notch as the previous one and then his slide to awfulness began the next season. So even ignoring Cory’s NTC there’s really no window for Ray to have traded Cory unless he was supposed to have dealt him before his six year deal hadn’t started on the strength of his one year as a starter.

 

[JrFischer54]

He's reluctant to do it because he's in his 70's. There's no way Lou at his age was going to undertake a five year process. All NY Jet fans remember the infamous Leon Hess line when he hired Rich Kotite...'I'm 80 years old, I want results now'. Nor is anyone going to hire Lou expecting a long-term rebuild at this point of his career.

Arguing whether he's incapable or not is a moot point, like devilsblood said he didn't want to do so when the time finally came, and that was the real issue with the end of his tenure here (that and Conte's horrible post-2005 drafting). He's certainly still capable of being a good win-now GM.

lol gotta be a tremendous ability to walk into a team that was good and then take the credit for hiring a cup winning coach and making some moves. Get the gratitude but then when the going gets tough? See ya losers I only do win nows lol


Btw too how the hell is he even a good “win now” gm? Outside a fluke run to the finals in 12 this is the second time he’s been out of the 2nd round in 17 years! With a huge assist going to covid for this playoff too imo.

 

[JrFischer54]

His legacy was never on the line except from what have you done for me lately people and others who weren't around for the glory days. His legacy wasn't coming down to his last five years here after his first twenty-five. That's like saying Marty's legacy was on the line from 2012-14.

the way he left this franchise is criminal I’m sorry to me how you finish your time at a place reflects just as much as the good times when it started


It’s just funny to me that so many people write off how his time ended here and years before that too. Simply by saying he’s a “win now gm” lol that’s the new hot take I guess. Like all gms don’t want to be a win now gm? There’s a win now gm and a rebuild gm? How does a rebuild gm graduate to the win nows? Lol

I guess I would have more respect for Lou and gratitude if he resigned when he got to the point of not trying to think about the future of this team. Instead he gave us Steve Sullivan 2.0 brunner havlat ryder clowe ponakoski 2.0 cory stefan Matue Im sure there are plenty of other dogs I forgot. giving his son a lifetime job and his other son conte a lifetime job. Yeah that’s the resume of a win now gm lol. More like the resume of a guy who loved having zero accountability and the blind loyalty of fans because of what he did the first half of his time here.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

well, to embrace a complete rebuild you typically need players to sell off that are actually worth something. he walked into a pretty shitty position

The only worse situation I can think of is Yzerman.

If Lou had 7-9 more years of operating at a high level, well, he should've proven that.

Shero and ownership knew he was f***ing up, badly. And unfortunately we're living through the mess he left.

Thanks for the memories.

You're the best ex-girlfriend I've ever had.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

His legacy was never on the line except from what have you done for me lately people and others who weren't around for the glory days. His legacy wasn't coming down to his last five years here after his first twenty-five. That's like saying Marty's legacy was on the line from 2012-14.

Please. I was there for every step of those glory days. His legacy is not in question, where we sit because of him in 2020 is.

Marty solidified his legacy in 2012. If he was somehow able to play in goal for 8 more years... It's a false equivalence.

 

[NJDevs26]

Please. I was there for every step of those glory days. His legacy is not in question, where we sit because of him in 2020 is.

Marty solidified his legacy in 2012. If he was somehow able to play in goal for 8 more years... It's a false equivalence.

No it's not, Lou had thirty years here and missed the playoffs his last three. Marty had twenty years here and missed the playoffs his last two. That's a similar tail end of their Devil tenure.

And why would only Marty have solidified his legacy in 2012 and not Lou?

lol gotta be a tremendous ability to walk into a team that was good and then take the credit for hiring a cup winning coach and making some moves. Get the gratitude but then when the going gets tough? See ya losers I only do win nows lol

Yeah okay, Lou should take on Seattle or Detroit at age 75 just to appease you, give me a break. With his resume he's earned the right to have gotten the jobs he did after leaving here, just as coaches with a resume who get fired like Quenneville and Laviolette continue to get good jobs. Obviously NHL execs still think he's a good GM unlike you. And not everyone thought the Islanders were even that good a win-now job once Tavares walked out the door but voila, Lou's in the Conference Finals within two years while we're still piling up last places and lotto balls five years after he and most of his players have left.

the way he left this franchise is criminal I’m sorry to me how you finish your time at a place reflects just as much as the good times when it started.

Just stop...this is the kind of entitled, mean-spirited stuff that brings out all the pushback from people who feel (rightly so based on yours and a few others' posts) that too many Devils fans have an unhealthy disrespect for Lou.

He gave us 25 great years of a winning culture and being competitive every season, which we've never had before or since and few other franchises ever get to begin with, but he kept the 29th pick in 2012 so that and rolling out some memeworthy plugs at the end cancels all that out, plus how dare he only win three Cups with a mid-market team instead of 7 or 8! The nerve of Lou having at worst the second most accomplished organization throughout three decades arguably only behind Detroit, and that cycle came to a hard end when it finally ended too. Winning cycles can't last forever, even with winning GM's.

And you may sniff at 100-point seasons where the team loses in the first or even second round but you can't always control what happens in a seven-game series either. I'd take some of those 'meaningless' 100-point seasons gladly over the crap we've had the last two years where the entirety of the season was actually meaningless and noncompetitive.

 

[Triumph]

Schneider only had one good year while under his six year contract. Remember that when Lou traded for him in 2013 he had two year left before he was a UFA but Lou gave him that big six year deal in 2014 after Cory had been a 1b to Brodeur. It was a bit of a shocker since Lou had never locked up guys a year early like that and Cory really hadn’t shown he deserved that contract since he still hadn’t been a full time starter. Of course, he was incredible the next season as a starter, worthy of that salary, though the exact opposite of what a rebuilding team needed.

His contract started with his third year in NJ and second as starter in 2015-16, and in that season was Cory nearly as top notch as the previous one and then his slide to awfulness began the next season. So even ignoring Cory’s NTC there’s really no window for Ray to have traded Cory unless he was supposed to have dealt him before his six year deal hadn’t started on the strength of his one year as a starter.

Lou had locked up at least one guy early like that - Travis Zajac. He was the first NHL player signed to a contract coming out of the 2012-13 lockout. Current employee Tyler De.llow described the contract as Horcoff-like and while I think it worked out a bit better than that one, not by much.

Which is to say that Lou understood there were guys he could not afford to lose or he basically did not have a team and that Schneider was one of them.

Also FWIW Schneider's deal was for 7 years.

 

[Fear the Wushu]

Man Lou is looking good in that Isles role right now meanwhile we are still a shit show. A team with the talent level of the Islanders should not be in the ECF, Long Island can thank Lou and Trotz.

 

[Tundra]

Islanders had a solid core before Lou arrived. Having Lou there to add the final pieces and right coach is what he excels at. He just can't build a team from scratch anymore.

 

[MartyOwns]

i think i can sum this whole thing up to the tune of the spider-man song. lou was good, then he sucked. now our prospects all are f***ed.

 

[Guttersniped]

Lou had locked up at least one guy early like that - Travis Zajac. He was the first NHL player signed to a contract coming out of the 2012-13 lockout. Current employee Tyler De.llow described the contract as Horcoff-like and while I think it worked out a bit better than that one, not by much.

Which is to say that Lou understood there were guys he could not afford to lose or he basically did not have a team and that Schneider was one of them.

Also FWIW Schneider's deal was for 7 years.

I forgot it was 7 years. My point was saying Ray should have traded Schneider when he had 6-7 years left on that deal is not a reasonable criticism. It would have helped the tank enormously but trading a goaltender, particularly when he’s you lone remaining star, at the time when he’s locked up longterm isn’t something teams generally do when they don’t have another player to replace them. It wouldn’t have been an easy trade to get a good return considering how the goalie market is and the risk involved with that large a deal. He had a NTC so the trade would have to be to a contender, or at least a near contender, which might have been doable but not a slam dunk. And of course Ray had two off-seasons to make that move before Cory’s steep decline made that contract unmovable.

I think Lou was arguably the best GM in his prime because he was working with more financial constraints than Holland or Lacroix. This team was relatively cash poor under the original ownership. They got a influx of money under YankeeNets but they mostly cared about their cable empire while Vanderbeek was your typical financial industry vulture/charlatan. Devils ownership went from small potatoes to messy to borderline financial improprieties and/or bankruptcy so people are underestimating how critical his elite stewardship was to bringing this franchise to respectability and keeping it there.

And to tie this back to Cory, only two things Lou did that still annoy the crap out of me 1) taking Niedermayer to arbitration after he won the Norris when he wanted a long term deal 2) trading for Schneider and giving him that deal so he could singlehandedly win games on a bad team.

I also would love to know the inside scoop about how the Kovy contract mess actually happened since Lou is so well respected and the league was so pissed, but that’s just for the tea.

 

[billingtons ghost]

the way he left this franchise is criminal I’m sorry to me how you finish your time at a place reflects just as much as the good times when it started

This is silly. So I guess Glen Sather and his 41 playoff series wins is not a good GM.
The 'way he left the franchise' is sadly the way about 10 of the NHL franchises are left every year - with a bunch of prospects that don't pan out and a bunch of veterans who underperform.

You have to win while your core is young, and before guys get paid.

I don't know how many other GMs would've been in a position to go for a cup after losing Parise (good non-sign), Clarkson (good non-sign), Kovy (wtf was that?), and Brodeur in quick succession - the reload of the last was a ginger bust due to injury and defensive play. The pipeline of young D prospects that looked so promising all kinda busted out except Larsson turned into Hall and Merrill is lumbering around somewhere.

Do you know many GMs that would have survived that?

Whilst I am rationalizing and sound like an apoligist (I am) - I own that the drafting was absolutely terrible, and that the team has been awful for just about the longest stretch in its history. '83 was a clown show, '88 gave us hope, and by '92 it was clear we were going to be a good team that broke through in '94 when Marty showed up.

The current 6 year drought post-Lou has been just as dark with only the glimmer of one playoff run with Hall carrying us to make it look better. We're still probably another 5 years out from contending for a cup. That's pretty tough.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

This is silly. So I guess Glen Sather and his 41 playoff series wins is not a good GM.
The 'way he left the franchise' is sadly the way about 10 of the NHL franchises are left every year - with a bunch of prospects that don't pan out and a bunch of veterans who underperform.

You have to win while your core is young, and before guys get paid.

I don't know how many other GMs would've been in a position to go for a cup after losing Parise (good non-sign), Clarkson (good non-sign), Kovy (wtf was that?), and Brodeur in quick succession - the reload of the last was a ginger bust due to injury and defensive play. The pipeline of young D prospects that looked so promising all kinda busted out except Larsson turned into Hall and Merrill is lumbering around somewhere.

Do you know many GMs that would have survived that?

Whilst I am rationalizing and sound like an apoligist (I am) - I own that the drafting was absolutely terrible, and that the team has been awful for just about the longest stretch in its history. '83 was a clown show, '88 gave us hope, and by '92 it was clear we were going to be a good team that broke through in '94 when Marty showed up.

The current 6 year drought post-Lou has been just as dark with only the glimmer of one playoff run with Hall carrying us to make it look better. We're still probably another 5 years out from contending for a cup. That's pretty tough.

Yeah most of this is just nonsensical...The poor drafting for nearly a decade has literally nothing to do with Parise/Kovy leaving, Clarkson not being re-signed, etc etc.

Most teams enter rebuilds with assets that they can sell off for decent prices....hell, look at what the Rangers did.

the Devils had what, 42 year old Jaromir Jagr and Zidlicky? And thats basically it. Other than that, they had to start from scratch because of what Lou and Conte left behind. That is not "the way about 10 NHL franchises are left every year".