Lou Lamoriello roster building - reference/video request

[My3Sons]

Merrill went in the Vegas expansion draft and NJ will lose another player to Seattle, that’s how it works. Considering what other team lost, Shea Theadore comes to mind, I can’t see how anyone can complain about Merrill. Hayes is big-sized center who was approaching UFA, Zajac didn’t have a movable contract and Schneider didn’t have a movable contract. I don’t know what everyone’s obsession with trading Wood is, he’s not a key piece of the core but he’s still 24 and Jimmy Vessey got the Rangers a 3rd. They only got a 2nd and a 3rd for Zuccarello, so not everybody gets them a 1st. (Also the Rangers traded Ryan Graves to Avalanche for another minor league who they ended up not qualifying at 2018 TDL, so not every move is magical.)

For me, Wood is one of the few players the team may be able to trade without long term negative impact. The goal being to return a defender, not a draft pick. It's not an obsession. Who else might have value to another team? Zacha? Maybe, but I'm not quite ready to close the book on him yet. I'd like to see if he can up his game a bit under Ruff and maybe become a legitimate third line center. Maybe Butcher but the team already needs multiple defenders and moving Butcher only helps if another defender comes back. Severson, sure, but now you are getting to the point where maybe you actually hurt the team unless the trade return is a clear upgrade.

 

[billingtons ghost]

imo even knowing this team made the finals the right move with zach would've been to deal him.

OOF. Only the die-hardest lou hater chasing a narrative could possibly say such a thing. Yeah, trade him - you were a couple of wins away from a cup. Why bother.

we as fans know now how gone he was

I certainly didn't think that the majority of the fanbase thought he'd leave. It sure seemed like better than a 50-50 chance he'd stay, up until the very end. Certainly after the Finals were over it seemed pretty likely he'd be back.

I don't know how you can say just before the trade deadline, with the team you had at the time - that Parise was 'gone'.

 

[MartyOwns]

 

[billingtons ghost]

Merrill went in the Vegas expansion draft and NJ will lose another player to Seattle, that’s how it works. Considering what other team lost, Shea Theadore comes to mind, I can’t see how anyone can complain about Merrill. Hayes is big-sized center who was approaching UFA, Zajac didn’t have a movable contract and Schneider didn’t have a movable contract. I don’t know what everyone’s obsession with trading Wood is, he’s not a key piece of the core but he’s still 24 and Jimmy Vessey got the Rangers a 3rd. They only got a 2nd and a 3rd for Zuccarello, so not everybody gets them a 1st. (Also the Rangers traded Ryan Graves to Avalanche for another minor league who they ended up not qualifying at 2018 TDL, so not every move is magical.)

I wasn't condoning those moves - I was just pointing out that if folks are blaming Lou for not doing a full 'down-to-the-studs' rebuild in 2014, it's Monday morning QB'ing in the sense that we are in the midst of what seems to be one of those rebuilds, yet instead of jettisoning Greene/Zajac/Schneider et al for draft picks, or shipping Merrill/Severson as part of a deal for a first - Shero didn't do that... and in fact added Subban. The point of bringing up Merrill/Wood is that they had some moderate value as young 20-something players with 'potential' and if we were to be stockpiling picks, why take a flyer on Mueller and lose both a pick AND Merrill.

I think it is hard to blame either Lou or Shero for their moves. In retrospect, it is easy to blame them for what seem like obvious mistakes - but the only mistakes that were really made were in Lou's drafting over half a decade+.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Yeah, there's one person who I absolutely do not agree with in this thread even though it looks like I might. I don't think that Lou should've done a whole lot different at the pro level. I think that is just the natural endpoint for teams in the spot he was in - you keep going until you can't anymore. Given what the Devils were working with, there wasn't a half-rebuild possible - there's not much difference between finishing with 70 points and finishing with 80 points, and doing either one repeatedly will get you thrown out of the GM chair, Stanley Cups or not.

I don't think Lou should've done what the Rangers did and that is because it was not possible. The Devils did not have players like McDonagh and Stepan that they could trade. That's the point that's being made. I don't think Lou should've been a seller at the 2013 deadline. It's easy to have wanted him to have been, now, in 2020, 7 years removed from that season.

But it just has to be acknowledged where the Devils were in 2015. In bad shape and getting worse - that's the critical part - the prospect base was still getting worse.

Yep - I'll agree with this wholeheartedly. The difference is that I don't hold a grudge for it, as I think Lou's plan to try to reload and win now (when you have clocks ticking on Elias, Brodeur, Kovy, Parise etc) was the right move.

And if we can agree with that, and we can agree that drafting just flat out sucked - players didn't pan out and we spent draft capital to try to reload and we were drafting low because of success... then I'm not sure what anyone really expects to have in the system in 2015. If you only have X picks around the 20th spot, and you miss on them, and have to go the Matteau forfeit pick route - you're screwed. And we were. So what's the surprise here?

F**ing Lou, what the hell was he thinking... trying to win a cup in 2012? He could've loaded up on 2nds ditching Elias, Greene, Zajac, Schneider, Severson, Parise, Kovy, etc etc and maybe we'd have a cup - or maybe we'd be exactly right here wondering why those picks didn't pan out.

I guess I just think people vastly underestimate the luck and energy it takes to do that - and I don't know many teams that have. I'm really hoping we have to have Shero/Fitz discussions about who was more responsible for our next cup - the same way Shero gets credit for Craig Patrick's work.

 

[Triumph]

Yep - I'll agree with this wholeheartedly. The difference is that I don't hold a grudge for it, as I think Lou's plan to try to reload and win now (when you have clocks ticking on Elias, Brodeur, Kovy, Parise etc) was the right move.

And if we can agree with that, and we can agree that drafting just flat out sucked - players didn't pan out and we spent draft capital to try to reload and we were drafting low because of success... then I'm not sure what anyone really expects to have in the system in 2015. If you only have X picks around the 20th spot, and you miss on them, and have to go the Matteau forfeit pick route - you're screwed. And we were. So what's the surprise here?

I don't hold a grudge for those moves. I hold a grudge for 2014 and how that all played out, but the moves in general, the operating philosophy, no - someone who wants to win and who has been winning is going to keep playing the same way, even if the game changes and they can't see how.

The surprise is someone like you claiming that '10 teams are in the same spot the Devils were in in 2015.' in 2020. That's surprising to hear anyone who follows this franchise and the NHL say something like that. How often do teams look at their depth chart at the end of the season and see literally no right wings signed for the next year?

F**ing Lou, what the hell was he thinking... trying to win a cup in 2012? He could've loaded up on 2nds ditching Elias, Greene, Zajac, Schneider, Severson, Parise, Kovy, etc etc and maybe we'd have a cup - or maybe we'd be exactly right here wondering why those picks didn't pan out.

I guess I just think people vastly underestimate the luck and energy it takes to do that - and I don't know many teams that have. I'm really hoping we have to have Shero/Fitz discussions about who was more responsible for our next cup - the same way Shero gets credit for Craig Patrick's work.

People do vastly underestimate the amount of luck and energy it takes to win the Stanley Cup or to even come close. People also vastly underestimate the hole a team can be in after trying to do so for years and years.

 

[Tundra]

The 'Lou didn't leave us in such bad shape' crowd would've been absolutely livid had one of his draft picks who looked like a decent player been sent away for a pick. That's why it's funny to me how much guff Shero is getting for not immediately tearing everything down to the studs - that was just never the plan here.

Wasn't it Kevin Fiala? ROFL The draft pick decision was arguably one of the dumbest moves in NHL history. Yes, NHL history. Retains the 29th pick overall (Matteau) and sacrifices a future 11th overall.
I remember that the entire league was puzzled when he did this.

 

[billingtons ghost]

The surprise is someone like you claiming that '10 teams are in the same spot the Devils were in in 2015.' in 2020. That's surprising to hear anyone who follows this franchise and the NHL say something like that. How often do teams look at their depth chart at the end of the season and see literally no right wings signed for the next year? .

Well, '10' was hyperbole just using a round number.... and it *is* tough to defend a depth chart where Tootoo and Sislo are your RW options before Palmieri gets there.... but Buffalo and Ottawa currently have only 4 forwards under contract for next year - the Flames only have 3 defensemen. True - I'm not sure what help those teams will get from the farm and certainly they aren't exactly models of stability, I'll grant you - but it isn't like that kind of thing *never* happens. Especially if you are jettisoning Havlat, Ryder, Jagr etc...by design.

 

[NJDevs26]

OOF. Only the die-hardest lou hater chasing a narrative could possibly say such a thing. Yeah, trade him - you were a couple of wins away from a cup. Why bother.



I certainly didn't think that the majority of the fanbase thought he'd leave. It sure seemed like better than a 50-50 chance he'd stay, up until the very end. Certainly after the Finals were over it seemed pretty likely he'd be back.

I don't know how you can say just before the trade deadline, with the team you had at the time - that Parise was 'gone'.

It's also easy in hindsight now to say Zach was gone because he left (and because it's now public knowledge he was talking to Suter during the season and playoffs, which I don't think even Lou could have known about at the time) but that doesn't mean there was zero possiblity of him staying. If they thought there was no chance of him staying they wouldn't have made him captain.

And when were they even supposed to trade him anyway, the offseason before his FA coming off a major injury? At best you would have gotten a Hall-like package for him considering his own return from major injury (a low first, a second-round prospect, and a third rounder along with AHL filler), that's nice but hardly franchise altering. Or halfway through the season when they were a contender...sorry gotta pull the plug on a good team because Zach 'might' leave!

Fischer keeps blaming Lou for not keeping FA's as if the GM has total control of whether a player signs or not. Particularly when there were ownership financial concerns by then. The reason Parise leaving was a killer more than other guys who left (Holik, Gomez, etc) is because the farm system was dry at that point. You no longer had a John Madden to replace Holik or a Zajac to replace Gomez. It all goes back to the failed drafting from 2005 on.

 

[Guttersniped]

Well, '10' was hyperbole just using a round number.... and it *is* tough to defend a depth chart where Tootoo and Sislo are your RW options before Palmieri gets there.... but Buffalo and Ottawa currently have only 4 forwards under contract for next year - the Flames only have 3 defensemen. True - I'm not sure what help those teams will get from the farm and certainly they aren't exactly models of stability, I'll grant you - but it isn't like that kind of thing *never* happens. Especially if you are jettisoning Havlat, Ryder, Jagr etc...by design.

Far be it from me to defend Ottawa but they have six forwards who are RFAs as well as the three under contract, seven picks in the first two rounds of the draft and a flush farm system, which is a bit different then what we’re discussing.

The Flames have a RFA dman as well and while they’re in a bit of a pickle with having to decide if they want to keep Brodie or the other UFAs but they have younger defensemen like Hanifin, Andersson as well as younger players like Tkachuk, Monahan, Lindholm, Bennett, Dube etc at forward. That isn’t a comparable.

Buffalo? Really? Again RFAs, plus, cmon, their issue is bad contracts and mismanagement, they have several of best players 23-and-under and just need to stop shooting themselves in the foot (or head).

 

[Triumph]

Well, '10' was hyperbole just using a round number.... and it *is* tough to defend a depth chart where Tootoo and Sislo are your RW options before Palmieri gets there.... but Buffalo and Ottawa currently have only 4 forwards under contract for next year - the Flames only have 3 defensemen. True - I'm not sure what help those teams will get from the farm and certainly they aren't exactly models of stability, I'll grant you - but it isn't like that kind of thing *never* happens. Especially if you are jettisoning Havlat, Ryder, Jagr etc...by design.

Tootoo was a UFA at the end of 2015 - he was re-signed shortly after Shero took over, so he was not even on the depth chart. But Mike Sislo was at least locked up, you are right about that.

The Devils did not even have any RFA forwards of note at the time. Buffalo has 4 RFAs in addition to the 4 players they are signing. The Senators have 6 RFAs. These scenarios are not comparable.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Far be it from me to defend Ottawa but they have six forwards who are RFAs as well as the three under contract, seven picks in the first two rounds of the draft and a flush farm system, which is a bit different then what we’re discussing.

The Flames have a RFA dman as well and while they’re in a bit of a pickle with having to decide if they want to keep Brodie or the other UFAs but they have younger defensemen like Hanifin, Andersson as well as younger players like Tkachuk, Monahan, Lindholm, Bennett, Dube etc at forward. That isn’t a comparable.

Buffalo? Really? Again RFAs, plus, cmon, their issue is bad contracts and mismanagement, they have several of best players 23-and-under and just need to stop shooting themselves in the foot (or head).

You guys are right - I'm obviously grasping at straws here - the 2015 situation was ridiculous -

Even so - you're in the GM chair - what do you do at that point? I guess the answer is: draft better for the X previous years.

The house cleaning is exactly what everyone was clamboring for, and the wealth of retread plugs is exactly what Lou gets killed for on the flipside of this argument when Havlat, Ryder and Ruutuu didn't work out.... and we started a new series of the Stempniaks, Fiddlers et al.

 

[Triumph]

You guys are right - I'm obviously grasping at straws here - the 2015 situation was ridiculous -

Even so - you're in the GM chair - what do you do at that point? I guess the answer is: draft better for the X previous years.

The house cleaning is exactly what everyone was clamboring for, and the wealth of retread plugs is exactly what Lou gets killed for on the flipside of this argument when Havlat, Ryder and Ruutuu didn't work out.... and we started a new series of the Stempniaks, Fiddlers et al.

Stempniak and Fiddler were moved out for picks. Havlat, Ryder, and Ruutu (and Gomez, Bernier, Zubrus, and we can go on) were not. In fact, Stempniak and Fiddler were traded for Mirco Mueller, a 4th round pick, and a 5th round pick. Did the Devils get a lot out of that overall? No, not really, they grabbed Studenic with the 5th and Evan Cormier with the 4th - neither one appears on an NHL track and Mueller will probably be out of the organization when the league year ends. But it's better than doing nothing.

 

[Guttersniped]

Stempniak and Fiddler were moved out for picks. Havlat, Ryder, and Ruutu (and Gomez, Bernier, Zubrus, and we can go on) were not. In fact, Stempniak and Fiddler were traded for Mirco Mueller, a 4th round pick, and a 5th round pick. Did the Devils get a lot out of that overall? No, not really, they grabbed Studenic with the 5th and Evan Cormier with the 4th - neither one appears on an NHL track and Mueller will probably be out of the organization when the league year ends. But it's better than doing nothing.

Ah yes, the mystery of 2015 trade deadline when only Jagr and Zidlicky got shipped out of the old folks home. Now the other potential trade pieces didn’t have as much appeal plus Ruutu, TooToo and Zubrus all (somehow) had another year left on their deals.

We of course got Ruutu in that weirdo 2014 TDL trade and, fun fact, Carolina drafted Morgan Geekie with our 2017 3rd rd pick which was a conditional pick they got if they didn’t resign Loktionov.

The team was very bad and left almost completely bereft of talent but if that happens after about two decades of amazing success and 3 cups I have no issue with it (and I’ve been a STH through this whole shitshow). I don’t really hold it against Lou for stumbling at the end because this is the normal life cycle of sports teams. It’s better to have won and then sucked then never won at all as the old saying goes. If I and everyone else who witnessed those wins firsthand become very old and we still never get very good again then I will have issues though.

Trading for Schneider unleashed a terrible Gypsy curse though.

 

[My3Sons]

Trading for Schneider unleashed a terrible Gypsy curse though.

"Even a man who is pure of heart and says his prayers at night can become a [stubbon old mule] when the wolfsbane blooms and the moon is full and bright."

 

[JrFischer54]

You guys are right - I'm obviously grasping at straws here - the 2015 situation was ridiculous -

Even so - you're in the GM chair - what do you do at that point? I guess the answer is: draft better for the X previous years.

The house cleaning is exactly what everyone was clamboring for, and the wealth of retread plugs is exactly what Lou gets killed for on the flipside of this argument when Havlat, Ryder and Ruutuu didn't work out.... and we started a new series of the Stempniaks, Fiddlers et al.

dont forget brunner. He was legit so bad he never played in the nhl again.

 

[OmNomNom]

wtf is this thread, it's nowhere near what the OP asked for

 

[MadDevil]

wtf is this thread, it's nowhere near what the OP asked for

Welcome to HF Devils. How long have you been here?

 

[JrFischer54]

wtf is this thread, it's nowhere near what the OP asked for

just people talking about hockey stuff that they want to talk about no?

 

[OmNomNom]

just people talking about hockey stuff that they want to talk about no?

I mean yeah but why, it's like having a thread about your ex