Lou Lamoriello roster building - reference/video request

[billingtons ghost]

interesting take (which I agree on) fair to say then that people bashing garth snow was a little premature? not saying by you but mostly everyone on here

Garth Snow had the job for 12 YEARS. You condemn Lou over a period about half as long.

 

[JrFischer54]

Garth Snow had the job for 12 YEARS. You condemn Lou over a period about half as long.

doesn't matter how long he had the job for it matters the final roster he put out there that lou is benefiting from.

 

[billingtons ghost]

doesn't matter how long he had the job for it matters the final roster he put out there that lou is benefiting from.

Obviously hiring Doug Weight led to the slaughter of Garth Snow and the billboards calling for his firing. He hit on many of his draft picks, and missed on some others, but overall he drafted very well - and managed the team poorly.

You only make the playoffs in 3 of your 12 years, well... I don't think there needs to be an 'underrated' discussion.

If this is a Gene Michael scenario, then ok -

One could argue that Lou bringing in Trotz and then Lehner gave them immediate respectability they hadn't had in 15 years.

 

[Triumph]

Obviously hiring Doug Weight led to the slaughter of Garth Snow and the billboards calling for his firing. He hit on many of his draft picks, and missed on some others, but overall he drafted very well - and managed the team poorly.

You only make the playoffs in 3 of your 12 years, well... I don't think there needs to be an 'underrated' discussion.

If this is a Gene Michael scenario, then ok -

One could argue that Lou bringing in Trotz and then Lehner gave them immediate respectability they hadn't had in 15 years.

Nobody could argue that - the Islanders lost John Tavares, the star who had led them to a playoff round victory for the first time in 2 decades. It's just revisionist history to claim that the Snow Islanders were never any good. They were coming off a decade of mismanagement at the hands of Milbury who managed to put together some teams that could sneak into the playoffs and the team was both old and not very good when he took it over. Throw in Wang's crazy contracts - the Islanders were still paying for Yashin in 2014-15, and they will be paying for DiPietro for another decade - and it was a situation that was quite challenging. Snow made his share of mistakes but he was never afraid to make big moves and he wasn't afraid of drafting questionable players.

 

[MadDevil]

Obviously hiring Doug Weight led to the slaughter of Garth Snow and the billboards calling for his firing. He hit on many of his draft picks, and missed on some others, but overall he drafted very well - and managed the team poorly.

You only make the playoffs in 3 of your 12 years, well... I don't think there needs to be an 'underrated' discussion.

If this is a Gene Michael scenario, then ok -

One could argue that Lou bringing in Trotz and then Lehner gave them immediate respectability they hadn't had in 15 years.

I think it's important to differentiate between drafting/building and managing. I think Lou was once great at both, but is more of a manager than a builder at this point. He's taken the ingredients left him by Snow, hired the best chef available in Trotz, who has turned those ingredients into a nice meal. And yes, I'm hungry as I'm writing this so excuse the food metaphor.

My issues with Lou are more on the building side, where I think he did a rather poor job in his later years with us. Not all of it was his fault. The ownership situation I'm sure didn't help. And some of it, like I and others have said before, was simply the price you pay for long term success. But it happened under his watch, and if we're going to give him credit for the successes, we also have to give him blame for the failures. It doesn't diminish what he did, or ruin his legacy. That was cemented by two decades of being one of the most successful teams in professional sports.

 

[NJDevs26]

When people get on Lou for building in his latter years, they really should be getting on Conte. And yes Lou is responsible for Conte in the end but no GM can ever be a good builder if your head scout is awful for at least a decade. Plus when was he supposed to fire him after all the success Conte did have his first two decades? FWIW he (and Shanahan) did 'build' Toronto to a degree, they only made the playoffs one out of ten years before he got there.

I don't think it's Lou can't build a team (provided he picks a good head scout, which I don't think he's ever had to do since the late '80's), he just isn't going to be willing to do so at age 78.

 

[Triumph]

When people get on Lou for building in his latter years, they really should be getting on Conte. And yes Lou is responsible for Conte in the end but no GM can ever be a good builder if your head scout is awful for at least a decade. Plus when was he supposed to fire him after all the success Conte did have his first two decades? FWIW he (and Shanahan) did 'build' Toronto to a degree, they only made the playoffs one out of ten years before he got there.

This is the stuff that drives me up a wall on this subject. When Lou took over in 2015, the Leafs already had Nylander, Rielly, Kadri, Kapanen and Marner. Yes, Lou did build Toronto - he made the deal for Andersen and he traded Phaneuf away in an excellent move; that deal was eventually traded again and bought out. Yes, the Leafs managed to finish last and get the 1st overall pick in his first season there. He made some good moves. He also kneecapped them with two awful contracts.

I don't think it's Lou can't build a team (provided he picks a good head scout, which I don't think he's ever had to do since the late '80's), he just isn't going to be willing to do so at age 78.

The Leafs' picks from the 2 years Lou was there are underwhelming - I don't know if he had the power to fire Mark Hunter or what control he had over him. But it's a lot of the same. And Hunter was gone when Lou was.

 

[devilsblood]

So I walk in and see what looks like people arguing Snow should get more credit then Lou for the Isle's current success?

Man, it's good to be back.

Related side note, having completely walked away from sports for a bunch of months I pretty much forgot Andy Greene was on the Isles. Seeing him out there and playing well has rekindled my interest.

 

[JrFischer54]

So I walk in and see what looks like people arguing Snow should get more credit then Lou for the Isle's current success?

Man, it's good to be back.

Related side note, having completely walked away from sports for a bunch of months I pretty much forgot Andy Greene was on the Isles. Seeing him out there and playing well has rekindled my interest.

So you don't think snow had more to do with building the isle core then lou?

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

So I walk in and see what looks like people arguing Snow should get more credit then Lou for the Isle's current success?

Man, it's good to be back.

Related side note, having completely walked away from sports for a bunch of months I pretty much forgot Andy Greene was on the Isles. Seeing him out there and playing well has rekindled my interest.

I mean, Lou hired Trotz which was a home run...no one can doubt that. Trotz may be the best coach in the league.

However, what roster moves did Lou make that have put the Islanders here? Matt Martin, Derek Brassard, and Varlamov? 95% of this roster is Snow's tbh.

 

[Guttersniped]

I mean, Lou hired Trotz which was a home run...no one can doubt that. Trotz may be the best coach in the league.

However, what roster moves did Lou make that have put the Islanders here? Matt Martin, Derek Brassard, and Varlamov? 95% of this roster is Snow's tbh.

Traded for Pageau and Greene. He signed Lehner on July 3rd for 1.5m his first summer there which was a pretty sweet move.

 

[JrFischer54]

Traded for Pageau and Greene. He signed Lehner on July 3rd for 1.5m his first summer there which was a pretty sweet move.

if your list includes trading for Andy greene then that just further proof snows fingerprints are over the core of this team then lous. Adding in a goalie who isn’t even there anymore further proves that

 

[billingtons ghost]

I mean, Lou hired Trotz which was a home run...no one can doubt that. Trotz may be the best coach in the league.

However, what roster moves did Lou make that have put the Islanders here? Matt Martin, Derek Brassard, and Varlamov? 95% of this roster is Snow's tbh.

To me, Lehner was the move that gave them respectability to buy into Trotz's system. You go from Weight-era "terrible goaltending" to a system that allows both of your goaltenders to vaunt into shut-down, steal-a-game territory. Having a Vezina trophy finalist is pretty big for the guys playing in front of him to think they have a chance to win nightly (witness Cory-induced demolition of team psyche)

Martin gave them "the best 4th line in hockey" narrative too, and of course Pageau looked like an overpay but is EXACTLY what they needed as a 3rd line C. Don't underestimate the Greene move either - adding a 6th defenseman was a key move in both of our first two cups, and they were in a bit of a tailspin when guys went down.

I'll also lean heavy on the culture of logo first.

 

[KovalchukFistPump]

I love that this thread devolved into the usual Lou vs anti-Lou slinging match. I hope it stays open though, it's fun to argue.

 

[JrFischer54]

I love that this thread devolved into the usual Lou vs anti-Lou slinging match. I hope it stays open though, it's fun to argue.

thats why we are here aren't we to discuss things devils related? wouldn't be much fun if we agreed all the time and were limited to what we could talk about.

 

[KovalchukFistPump]

thats why we are here aren't we to discuss things devils related? wouldn't be much fun if we agreed all the time and were limited to what we could talk about.

Threads get deleted on this board all the time - or they get moved into the megathreads

 

[Jack Be Quick]

When people get on Lou for building in his latter years, they really should be getting on Conte. And yes Lou is responsible for Conte in the end but no GM can ever be a good builder if your head scout is awful for at least a decade. Plus when was he supposed to fire him after all the success Conte did have his first two decades? FWIW he (and Shanahan) did 'build' Toronto to a degree, they only made the playoffs one out of ten years before he got there.

I don't think it's Lou can't build a team (provided he picks a good head scout, which I don't think he's ever had to do since the late '80's), he just isn't going to be willing to do so at age 78.

When people get on the gm of Johnny's Restaurant, they really should be getting on the assistant manager and the floor manager. Except that's not how restaurants work.

It's your ship.

He also re-hired the same guy after moving to Joey's in Brooklyn after years of incompetence at Johnny's.

Hiring the guy you're friends with who everyone already knows is the best coach in hockey is not an accomplishment.

It's a joke and I hope they get swept right back into obscurity just in time for that new arena to draw 12k people per game..

These flash in the pan 'runs' those guys are having are going to be painful to that fan base for a decade.

Because Lou doesn't know how to build in the modern era. Same old patchwork, same old red-faced, homeboy relics.

 

[guitarguyvic]

That definitely sounds like someone who holds Lou in high regard for all he’s done overall and is not bitter and resentful at all.

SureJan.gif

 

[devilsblood]

Hiring the guy you're friends with who everyone already knows is the best coach in hockey is not an accomplishment.

It's a joke and I hope they get swept right back into obscurity just in time for that new arena to draw 12k people per game..

These flash in the pan 'runs' those guys are having are going to be painful to that fan base for a decade.

Because Lou doesn't know how to build in the modern era. Same old patchwork, same old red-faced, homeboy relics.

1)Nobody would have denied that Trotz was a good coach in January 2018, but there would have been a lot of push back in regards to him being the best coach in the league. At that point he had zero cups to his name. Now he has a grand total of one. Was it an easy call for Lou? Sure but he did make that call. And Trotz, who would have had many other options did decide to work with Lou, don't disregard that.

2)A team with a good coach, a great young player, and a decent pipeline of prospects is likely not going to experience a painful decade.


I guess there is still some question as to how well Lou operates in the modern era, and that will be interesting to see over an extended timeframe, but people writing this off as a fluke? Way too much success under Lou's belt to be doing that.

 

[devilsblood]

Lou inherited Barzal instead of skipping him to draft an underachieving kid who hadn't broken out at any level yet.

Good news though, he brought Conte with him to the Islanders.

Ha this is an interesting point that I had missed.

He missed out on drafting Barzal, so instead he followed Barzal to the Isles.

 

[devilsblood]

No, they don't equal success, and that is what Lou is good at, molding what can be a successful team into one. What he's no longer good at is building a successful team from nothing, and he's not good at laying a good foundation for his successor.

We don't know this. We do know his last bunch of years with the Devils were terrible, but that, imo, was because he refused to start from scratch, not because he is incapable of doing so.

 

[Billdo]

We don't know this. We do know his last bunch of years with the Devils were terrible, but that, imo, was because he refused to start from scratch, not because he is incapable of doing so.

That's kind of a moot point though, if he was reluctant to do it he might as well have been incapable of doing it because the results were inevitably the same.

 

[JrFischer54]

We don't know this. We do know his last bunch of years with the Devils were terrible, but that, imo, was because he refused to start from scratch, not because he is incapable of doing so.

if you refuse to do something then I’m going to say that is probably because you can’t do it. ESP if your legacy and job are on the line?

 

[devilsblood]

That's kind of a moot point though, if he was reluctant to do it he might as well have been incapable of doing it because the results were inevitably the same.

That's an answer to a different question.

Was his final years with the devils awful? Yes.

But is he incapable of building a team from scratch? Not necessarily.

 

[NJDevs26]

That's kind of a moot point though, if he was reluctant to do it he might as well have been incapable of doing it because the results were inevitably the same.

He's reluctant to do it because he's in his 70's. There's no way Lou at his age was going to undertake a five year process. All NY Jet fans remember the infamous Leon Hess line when he hired Rich Kotite...'I'm 80 years old, I want results now'. Nor is anyone going to hire Lou expecting a long-term rebuild at this point of his career.

Arguing whether he's incapable or not is a moot point, like devilsblood said he didn't want to do so when the time finally came, and that was the real issue with the end of his tenure here (that and Conte's horrible post-2005 drafting). He's certainly still capable of being a good win-now GM.