GDT: Lightning vs Capitals. 7pm. Verizon Center. 4.13.2013

NobodyBeatsTheWiz

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What does "run on defense" have anything to do with it? If he is a big time prospect, GMs around the league would've picked him earlier. Really its as simple as that. They didn't see him as that, which is why he fell.

Seriously? Never watched a pro draft before? Runs on certain positions happen all the time, and it causes guys to drop that shouldn't drop.

He still went 11th. And again, the Forsberg as a big time prospect is not a fan-created phenomenon. Professional scouting services think he's a big-time prospect. Guys with very real NHL sources thought it was poor value.
 

AlexBrovechkin8

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Mark Giordano, Joe Pavelski, Keith Yandle.

Those are just guys that are conceivably available. With that package, there might even be other trade opportunities that open up.

I put together that package because it's roughly the equivalent of the package sent for Richards, depending on your view of Schenn vs FF and Simmonds vs MaJo. That said, I'd love Yandle here.
 

Mothra

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While it's too early to evaluate Erat the actual thinking behind the trade will always appear questionable. Poile set the bar incredibly high and was content to address the situation in the off-season when more teams could have been in the mix. McPhee crumbled. Simple as that. It's wasn't a trade made from a position of strength. It was uncharacteristically aggressive yet lacking in the necessary potential impact IMO to make it worthwhile. They're still fundamentally waiting on Kuznetsov to boost secondary scoring and for Orlov to get the chance to emerge as a top 4 LD. I could maybe see it if Erat completed a strong second line that clearly lacked a LW but the problems with that line run deeper.

My perspective is the players and coaching staff are gaining valuable experience, albeit with limited practice time, and the coaching staff is getting a better sense of what they have and what's needed. The East is fairly weak so who knows but this still seems like more of a transition year. Ovechkin & Green returning to form would be huge big picture but they still lack the across the board threats and top to bottom downhill game. The key will be taking the right next steps when the time comes and, for now, just enjoying the ride.

Im not so certain about that....I think its difficult to say what is their "position of strength"...at least in terms of trade-able commodities.....but they drafted 2 RW's in the first round last season and they seem to rave about Wilson. My guess is they feel he has top 6 potential, as does Kuznetsov.....
 

The Consiglieri

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Come on Mothra, just admit it's a terrible trade. Even if FF never amounts to anything he's a prized asset today, and should have returned more than a good-but-not great player with a fairly high cap hit and a marginal prospect.

It's objectively a bad trade. Move on.

+1

That's the key. The whole point isn't whether A player ends up being that, or B player ends up being this, the point is that this is the kind of trade a moronic GM on a joke of a team makes. We'd be making of the penguins or the rangers or the flyers etc if they'd made a trade that bad in premise within seconds. Let's not shine the merde, even if it turns out well, its horrible decision making and asset management. For the record I've usually liked how GMGM handled these kinds of issues as well. Not so here.
 

bonzaibondra12

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Mark Giordano, Joe Pavelski, Keith Yandle.

Those are just guys that are conceivably available. With that package, there might even be other trade opportunities that open up.

And considering how Johannson is playing, any of those players would have put us at slightly worse than we are now.

Now we have Erat and Johannson. Those two give us more depth and outscore Pavelski.

Yandle's cap hit would cost us Ribiero.

Giordano has a total of 4 playoff games and we'd have lost offense in Johannson and a future star. Not to mention, saying Giordano is better value than Erat+Latta is laughable.
 

The Consiglieri

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Your logic is flawed if you think an unproven prospect is going to fetch a great player in return.

You must be unfamiliar with trade deadline deals in the NBA, NHL, and MLB then. In all sports leagues, prospect(s), for professionals is the bread and butter of deal making.
 

NobodyBeatsTheWiz

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so if FF was to be moved, you would have preferred he had been packaged with another top young player +pick in a much bigger deal?

If it were for a better player in a more valuable position (or greater position of need), yes.

Forsberg was traded for a player at a position that wasn't a particular need at the time (given 21's return and 90's uptick in play).
 

Langway

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Im not so certain about that....I think its difficult to say what is their "position of strength"...at least in terms of trade-able commodities.....but they drafted 2 RW's in the first round last season and they seem to rave about Wilson. My guess is they feel he has top 6 potential, as does Kuznetsov.....
It's a stretch, though perhaps Wilson is a better fit as a bottom six guy should that be where they both need to start. He may be a top sixer in the way that Brouwer is as a purely complimentary type whereas Forsberg at least had the potential to be more consistent. Relying on Kuznetsov isn't necessarily such a great idea either given how flighty the guy comes across in the press.

Would they have traded Forsberg if he was a lefty? I honestly don't know and it's pretty weird that that seems so influential. At the moment I'd say their expendable young assets are Neuvirth, Kundratek and maybe picks. Not cheap potential top six prospects when the GM hasn't shown the ability to build competent/reliable secondary scoring. The issue for me with Erat is even when he's on he's more of a playmaker and so who is he feeding on that second line? Maybe he was the best LW out there but as a fit? I'm not sure it's all that strong. Forsberg doesn't project to be a pure goal scorer--else he would have went earlier--but he at least has the profile of a guy that will get a lot of looks.
 

kmart

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self denying by downing forsbergs value

fox.jpg


actually i am on ur side, forsberg will be a bust, mcphee made the right move !
 

Calicaps

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I keep hearing McPhee got fleeced, and I was furious at the time of the trade, but it's fairly evident that he never wanted FF and wasn't high on him, nor was anyone on his staff. He clearly values Wilson at RW over FF.

Also, chill with the Erat hate. He's coming off what appeared to be a season-ending injury. He looked very strong in his 1st 2 games. Most of you will never give him a chance because you want him to be terrible to further your agendas.

I think the point is, he had FF, whether he wanted him or not. And Forsberg was highly touted and coveted. If GMGM was paying attention, he should have known that and gotten a bigger return regardless of his own opinion of the player.

I like Erat. My dissatisfaction isn't about him per se. It's about the failure to get maximum return for a very valuable asset. If George undervalued his prospect based on his own personal feelings about the kid, that's a huge failure.

That is why McPhee got fleeced.
 

AlexBrovechkin8

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You must be unfamiliar with trade deadline deals in the NBA, NHL, and MLB then. In all sports leagues, prospect(s), for professionals is the bread and butter of deal making.

Comparing the NHL draft to the MLB and NBA is, no offense, so absurd I'm not going to bother responding any further to that point.

Again, I will wait until someone tells me when the last time a prospect alone fetched a great player in return. It does not happen. Teams don't trade great players for unproven ones unless they're bundled with another young, good-to-very good player and/or a high draft pick. Like I said, if you want a great player, like the Mike Richards deal NBTW proposed, you are looking at trading Forsberg + Johannson + 2nd or Forsberg + Orlov + 1st + 3rd.
 

The Consiglieri

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Like ive said, not a fan of the trade....but this is ridiculous. If he never amounts to anything its a terrible trade? Because why? The HF community values prospects more than proven hockey players?

Because decision making premised upon the ideas that grounded this trade would destroy a franchise in quick order. Franchises that make decisions like the one that formed the foundation of this trade always fail. These kinds of decisions are symptomatic with what the worst franchises in American sports consistently do.

If the trade ends up successful, it's largely a product of random chance, rather than well thought out, intelligent planning.

Build a team based on the thinking that is part and parcel of a trade like this, and you end up with teams like the Snyderatto Redskins (a decade of horrible trades gutted the player development pipeline, and combined with terrible scouting/draft day decision making , the Oakland Raiders (Palmer Trade), same deal in baseball with teams like the dodgers, the mets, and lately, the Indians and now red sox. Teams that make decisions analogous to this decision, are not long for the competitive world. They fail, quite consistently.

In 1999 when we brought Cerrato in I bashed the hell of it. As someone who'd seen Cerrato's work in the bay area where I was born and raised, I knew his raison d'etre, and his terrible track record, and that combined with his willingness to be a toadie, rather than a tom hagen like consiglieri, insured that the redskins would be run into the ground. Ten years later, my arguments proved prophetic. It didn't take much intelligence to argue as I did 18 months ago that the Raiders trade with the Bengals (a first rounder and a conditional 1st or 2nd in '13 (determined by the raiders post season performance or not)) was catastrophically bad and would seriously wreck the rebuild being done in Davis' last years, and if somehow the raiders made the playoffs, the trade would be even worse (something hard to imagine). Not surprisingly, 2 years later, the Raiders got nothing out of the trade other than a season and a half of horrid overall performance, and lost out on a top 20 pick in the 2012 draft, and a top 35 pick in the 2013 draft. Stupid, backward, moronic decision making and asset management.

Our decision making was damn near identical to these clowns. As such, even if it pans out, it doesn't matter as decision making of this sort, when consistently adhered to, and supported as justifiable, results in wrecked franchises. The best possible result, is that all we lost is a solid center who may not turn into much at the pro level, and that is totally unacceptable considering the process involved, the worst possible result is we've lost an elite, or good player. A very pre-shanny redskins/raiders kind of trade.
 
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AlexBrovechkin8

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I think the point is, he had FF, whether he wanted him or not. And Forsberg was highly touted and coveted. If GMGM was paying attention, he should have known that and gotten a bigger return regardless of his own opinion of the player.

I like Erat. My dissatisfaction isn't about him per se. It's about the failure to get maximum return for a very valuable asset. If George undervalued his prospect based on his own personal feelings about the kid, that's a huge failure.

That is why McPhee got fleeced.

I definitely see that point of view, and I'm not disagreeing per se. I do think the only way to know if GMGM undervalued his prospect is if we had information that another GMGM would have offered x, y, and z for Forsberg. Outside of that, we're just assuming that GMGM wanted to sell off FF for scraps.
 

NobodyBeatsTheWiz

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Comparing the NHL draft to the MLB and NBA is, no offense, so absurd I'm not going to bother responding any further to that point.

Again, I will wait until someone tells me when the last time a prospect alone fetched a great player in return. It does not happen. Teams don't trade great players for unproven ones unless they're bundled with another young, good-to-very good player and/or a high draft pick. Like I said, if you want a great player, like the Mike Richards deal NBTW proposed, you are looking at trading Forsberg + Johannson + 2nd or Forsberg + Orlov + 1st + 3rd.

I gave you an example. How about you giving me an example of a top-15-20 prospect league wide being traded for a player in Erat's tier?
 

mdurbin1234

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Seems that Erat is hurt quiet frequently.

Seriously!! Dude is such a scrub!! Got injured for 2 games.


Trade McPhee!!! (Can GM's be traded???)

Start Rex Grossman!!

Why won't McPhee draft O-lineman?!?!?

Oh my gad, I cud run this franchise so much better.
 

AlexBrovechkin8

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Consig, you're too damaged by Snyderatto. This is not symptomatic of a decade-long conglomeration of failure as you suggest. GMGM values the draft and rarely overpays FA's; two things that are the antithesis of Cerrato. If anything, my biggest complaint about him is that he's too gun shy and didn't make a move or two that could have gotten us a Cup.
 

AlexBrovechkin8

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I gave you an example. How about you giving me an example of a top-15-20 prospect league wide being traded for a player in Erat's tier?

You didn't give me an example. You gave me an example of a prospect being used in a package.

I'm admittedly too lazy/apathetic to go review previous year's trades. I will say the Pens traded their 2nd best defensive prospect for a guy whose not any where near Erat's tier in Brendan Morrow.
 

The Consiglieri

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Consig, you're too damaged by Snyderatto. This is not symptomatic of a decade-long conglomeration of failure as you suggest. GMGM values the draft and rarely overpays FA's; two things that are the antithesis of Cerrato. If anything, my biggest complaint about him is that he's too gun shy and didn't make a move or two that could have gotten us a Cup.

Snyderatto is 10 years of my sports fan life. I've been a Caps/Boulez victim (makes more sense than a term like fan) for thirty years. Snyderatto hasn't damaged me nearly as much as four decades of Caps choking (at a scale unparalleled, even the Cubs and Red Sox don't have as many multi-game lead chokes in their historical bank of heartbreak), and incompetent Boulez management.

My point on Snyderatto, and the Palmer trade is to explain to people why "even if the trade works out" it's still horrible is a valid argument. Trades like this, even if they work out, are still horrible because they are inherently flawed trades that are a part of the web that makes for terrible franchises. Want to run a great franchise? Make consistently wise decisions. There are franchises with track records of this in all sports: the Red Wings and Devils in Hockey for a few decades, neither team based on a single player or two for their good fortune, but rather on great decision making (unlike the penguins), the Steelers over the past twenty years, the Niners from 1980-1990, the Cardinals, and A's in baseball (for the A's to be competitive for half of the past 15 years w/such a hideous business situation in place is amazing, the Cardinals have a pretty low cap on what they can do, but consistently maximize it), and the NBA has the Spurs and the OKC Zombies. Can we put the Caps in that discussion? Not a chance in the past, or present, and definitely not based on the latest trade. I felt for a long time that we were getting there from '02-'11, but now I have my doubts. I believe in smart organizations, dumb organizations make trades like this. I hope it is merely an aberration, but I have my doubts, as Leonsis has already proven to be every bit as bad as Pollin as an owner, particularly in holding GM's as accountable for failure as coaches not to mention himself (look at Mark Cuban's ownership of the flawed Maverick reload over rebuild strategy in the press yesterday, versus Leonsis' outright lying, and b.s.ing the public over the incompetent management of the Boulez).
 

AlexBrovechkin8

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I think there are 20-22 fan bases in the NHL who would trade places with the Caps in a heartbeat for the past decade. I don't think we're a poorly run organization. Not elite, but definitely in one of the top tiers.
 

kicksavedave

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Consig nailed it. Other perfect examples are the Bullets trading young for old, big for small, (Weber for Richmond) or draft picks for aging players who sometimes gave them nothing(Price), other times gave them very little (Pack).

Its ironic that GMGM would cling to Shultz forever, but jettison prospects with more complete games and more upside like Eakin and FF for older players who may, after its all said and done, give us 2.5 years of solid play.

You can only sell the future for the present for a short period of time before that catches up to you. In 2 years we may once again need a 2LW and a 2C with nothing in the pipeline.
 

sillygoose

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Any better than a guy like Beagle? Coz those guys are fairly easy to find. The jury is out but the DNA evidence on this one is pretty convincing.

Just for the record, are you one of the guys who after 7 games said Holtby sucks and we need to trade for Luongo? I know there were a bunch of over reactors here. He's played 3 games, it took 30 for Ovechkin to get in the swing of things in the new system, I'll give him till the end oh his contract, if not the end of FF career before I start making statements about who won.

Don't worry though, you look great when getting called out on being an over reactive ******. WE NEED LUUUUUUUU HOLTBY SUCKS GUISE!
 

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