Prospect Info: Liam Ohgren LW, 19th Overall, 2022 NHL Draft

[MNRube]

Öhgren had the most TOI of all forwards on his team,

This is great to hear. Thank you for your diligence, Sweetnut.

If he’s a player, Billy G is going to be owed some apologies. Myself included. A couple good wingers with size and pace would be such an awesome addition

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Yurov: 0.73 ppg

Ohgren: 0.66 ppg

Depending on how you feel about the difference between the KHL and SHL, not a whole lot of difference there. Yurov did it for a much larger number of games, however.

 

[BagHead]

This is great to hear. Thank you for your diligence, Sweetnut.

If he’s a player, Billy G is going to be owed some apologies. Myself included. A couple good wingers with size and pace would be such an awesome addition

That's the thing that gets me with Guerin. He does the right thing just enough that it becomes infuriating when he does the obviously wrong thing.

 

[57special]

That's the thing that gets me with Guerin. He does the right thing just enough that it becomes infuriating when he does the obviously wrong thing.

"There's a plan."

 

[AKL]

That's the thing that gets me with Guerin. He does the right thing just enough that it becomes infuriating when he does the obviously wrong thing.

What is the right thing he did with Ohgren? He didn't scout or draft him. He got a 1st as part of the deal with trading Fiala? Every GM could and would have done that.

 

[BagHead]

What is the right thing he did with Ohgren? He didn't scout or draft him. He got a 1st as part of the deal with trading Fiala? Every GM could and would have done that.

He didn't draft him? Who did? Brackett may have requested it, even strongly, but in the end it's Guerin's decision to listen to Brackett. Or are you arguing that Brackett is responsible for Stramel? You can't have your cake and eat it.

 

[AKL]

He didn't draft him? Who did? Brackett may have requested it, even strongly, but in the end it's Guerin's decision to listen to Brackett. Or are you arguing that Brackett is responsible for Stramel? You can't have your cake and eat it.

I can have my cake and eat it when Stramel is the only time Guerin has gone over Brackett's head, yes. Brackett was brought in and given full autonomy of the scouting department. Brackett is the SME here. Guerin's job is to listen to the guy he hired to do this one job. So now Guerin gets extra credit for that?

Of course not. Of course he doesn't get praise for taking the guy the experts tell him to take, and of course he gets criticism for going over their heads and seemingly getting it wrong. If he had gotten Stramel right, he'd get credit for that. That's how this works. Pretending otherwise is silly.

 

[AKL]

If I go to an expert on the stock market and ask him which stock I should buy, and he tells me to buy XYZ, and I buy XYZ, and XYZ gets me a huge ROI, I'm not the genius here. I'm not the one who found XYZ. I don't get credit for it turning out so well.

If that expert tells me to buy XYZ and I say "nah I like ABC better", and ABC's price drops to 0, I'm the f***ing idiot.

If that expert tells me to buy XYZ and I say "nah I like ABC better", and ABC's price skyrockets, then I get credit for doing something good.

 

[BagHead]

I can have my cake and eat it when Stramel is the only time Guerin has gone over Brackett's head, yes. Brackett was brought in and given full autonomy of the scouting department. Brackett is the SME here. Guerin's job is to listen to the guy he hired to do this one job. So now Guerin gets extra credit for that?

Of course not. Of course he doesn't get praise for taking the guy the experts tell him to take, and of course he gets criticism for going over their heads and seemingly getting it wrong. If he had gotten Stramel right, he'd get credit for that. That's how this works. Pretending otherwise is silly.

I think you're overestimating the level of credit being given to Guerin. He gets credit for hiring Brackett, maybe even praise, depending on your view of Brackett. Not getting in the way of the guy you hired is doing the right thing, and that's what he did right with Ohgren. It's not praise, it's just acknowledgment that he operated the right way that time.

 

[AKL]

I think you're overestimating the level of credit being given to Guerin. He gets credit for hiring Brackett, maybe even praise, depending on your view of Brackett. Not getting in the way of the guy you hired is doing the right thing, and that's what he did right with Ohgren. It's not praise, it's just acknowledgment that he operated the right way that time.

Your implication is very clearly that he did the right thing with Ohgren and it makes up for some of his shortcomings.

If he’s a player, Billy G is going to be owed some apologies.

That's the thing that gets me with Guerin. He does the right thing just enough that it becomes infuriating when he does the obviously wrong thing.

He didn't do the right thing with Ohgren, Brackett is just the gift that keeps on giving, and the one saving grace that keeps people from thinking he's a complete buffoon.

I said this the other day.

Guerin has done a poor job at managing the NHL team, and his saving grace is hiring a highly touted scout and relinquishing most of his control over that aspect of running a club

Maybe Brackett saves his ass in the long term. Who knows.

If it's not clear, Brackett was his best move by a long shot, as without a scouting department that has seemingly (thus far) picked a lot of really solid prospects, we'd be looking at a bleak future as well as a bleak present. But he doesn't keep getting credit every time a Brackett pick turns out, because the two aren't tied together. We could have another GM and keep Brackett.

 

[P10p]

Acting like we know the internal conversations and who is responsible for what is comical.

 

[f7ben]

I think the buck stops with Billy , if Yurov and Ohgren both hit something near their ceiling and given what we know about Faber now then the Fiala trade is the single most positive thing that will have happened to this team since its inception. I despise Billy but I’m not irrational to the point I won’t give him credit.

 

[AKL]

I think the buck stops with Billy , if Yurov and Ohgren both hit something near their ceiling and given what we know about Faber now then the Fiala trade is the single most positive thing that will have happened to this team since its inception. I despise Billy but I’m not irrational to the point I won’t give him credit.

Give him credit for the trade, no issue with that. Giving him credit for something he didn't do is pretty irrational.

But there are three different segments here:

1) The trade, Fiala for Faber (what he was considered to be at the time, not what he became after) + 1st
-This is where most of his credit lies

2) What Faber became after the trade happened, the most controversial part, how much credit do you want to give Guerin for finding a diamond in the rough, how much credit just goes to Faber for being better than pretty much anyone thought he'd be
-Credit here is discretionary
-It's extra ambiguous because we don't know if Guerin "picked" Faber or if LA did
-You could also make the case that Guerin picked Faber at the behest of scouts who identified Faber as the right piece to select, adding even more mud to the waters, but this is pure conjecture and not worth discussing

3) The prospects (Yurov/Ohgren) becoming solid players or better
-Guerin gets little to no credit here, this is Brackett's credit

 

[MuckOG]

What about trading Talbot for Gus? Or Kahkonen and a 5th for Middleton? No credit there?

 

[AKL]

What about trading Talbot for Gus? Or trading Kahkonen and a 5th for Middleton? No credit there?

Are you talking to me?

 

[MNRube]

When did it become scripture that Guerin is responsible exclusively for Stramel and not for any of the good picks?

 

[AKL]

Guerin picks the bad guys, and Brackett picks the good ones. Got it. Lol, this board sometimes

Except we know a few things

1) Brackett left Vancouver because he didn't have full autonomy of the scouting department, he got that here
2) Guerin previously stating he was hands off at the draft (prior to 2023)
3) Brackett all but admitting that Stramel was not at the top of their draft list but they took him anyway because of (insert characteristics that Guerin notoriously looks for)

YOU are the part of this board you are laughing at. You and the few others who seem hellbent on giving Guerin way more credit than he deserves because you like him as a person. There's nothing unreasonable about saying Guerin picked Stramel and Brackett picked virtually everyone else because we have quotes from both of those people alluding to exactly that.

The extra funny part is that this conversation stemmed off the fact that you are already assuming that Ohgren is going to be a player because one, frankly, biased fan said he looked good and led his team in time on ice for a game, despite the fact that the team got shut out, and saying Guerin is owed apologies for it. You are the other side of the coin you hate.

 

[MuckOG]

Are you talking to me?

Not exclusively. But yeah.

 

[AKL]

Not exclusively. But yeah.

Don't remember talking about those deals or players at all. Think I was pretty clear about not giving him much credit for scouting and drafting. Believe I even said in the post prior to yours that he generally gets credit for trades without hindsight, and what happens with players after that is a gray area. So I'm not sure why you're asking me.

As a side note, I also believe at one point I said if Stramel turns out well, Guerin gets credit for that. Seems people think I have a problem with giving Guerin credit for the things he does. That's not the case, I'm just not interested in giving him credit for things he doesn't do.

 

[Minnewildsota]

When did it become scripture that Guerin is responsible exclusively for Stramel and not for any of the good picks?

Since people have a blind hatred for Guerin. Gets all the blame, little of the praise.

Part of your job as a manager is to build a team that's successful. So even if you're not doing the day to day work, you have people that are competent that are. So while Guerin MIGHT not have scouted or drafted players directly, he put people around him that are. He might not get direct credit, but he does, or should, get tons of credit if Brackett is making good picks.

To go with the stock broker analogy. Yeah, the stock broker might do all the work, but it's your job to identify a good stock broker because it's easier to find a bad one than a good one.

 

[Minnewildsota]

Except we know a few things

1) Brackett left Vancouver because he didn't have full autonomy of the scouting department, he got that here
2) Guerin previously stating he was hands off at the draft (prior to 2023)
3) Brackett all but admitting that Stramel was not at the top of their draft list but they took him anyway because of (insert characteristics that Guerin notoriously looks for)

YOU are the part of this board you are laughing at. You and the few others who seem hellbent on giving Guerin way more credit than he deserves because you like him as a person. There's nothing unreasonable about saying Guerin picked Stramel and Brackett picked virtually everyone else because we have quotes from both of those people alluding to exactly that.

The extra funny part is that this conversation stemmed off the fact that you are already assuming that Ohgren is going to be a player because one, frankly, biased fan said he looked good and led his team in time on ice for a game, despite the fact that the team got shut out, and saying Guerin is owed apologies for it. You are the other side of the coin you hate.

Pot meet kettle except the exact opposite side of the coin. Anything Guerin does is BAD. Anything good is blind luck or someone else's credit.

 

[f7ben]

I’m just gonna go ahead and err on the side of AKL here because he’s always right for the most part.

 

[Sweetnut]

The game ended 2-3, they didn't got shutout this time. It was scoreless for 61 minutes into 3rd OT after FBK tied it up 2-2 in the third.
Rögle scored 2 PP goal 2 minutes apart in the second, after stupid penalties.
This is the tying goal, scored by a fourth line grinder who got 4 goals this season.

Färjestad BK

 

[Digitalbooya]

I have a tough time with Guerin saying it needs to be Stramel. I could see “we really could use another center to add to the mix” from Guerin and Brackett had Stramel as the best available center at the time. Most here had other guys they liked at center… Edstrom for me. Ritchie for others. Etc etc.

In that sort of situation, both should get some level of blame.

It could sort of be the same thing for Ohgren vs Snuggerud vs Yurov vs Kulich.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Guerin gets some credit when he says "yes" to Brackett and the player turns out to be good. How much of the pie you want give for that is up to the individual, I guess. When it comes to the draft, I look at the scouts first, and the GM a very distant second, until any new information comes in on that front.

But maybe Brackett wanted to pick Stramel and this is all moot. I'd probably need to watch the post-draft videos again.