Let's talk about the potential VGK goaltending tandems

[CDN24]

Pens would have to convince him to waive his NMC. Going to be awfully hard to do.

They are going to have to do that anyway, otherwise they have to leave Matt Murray unprotected and vegas will grab him in a heartbeat.

Pittsburgh has to get Fleury to waive the NMC so that he can be exposed or so that they can trade him somewhere before the expansion draft, otherwise Matt Murray is your starting goalie for the VGK

 

[airbus220]

Do you not understand that there is an advantage to drafting and developing goalies rather than just always spending assets on them?

No, there's not an advantage to draft goalies because you waste many draft picks.
Since you mentioned the first 3 draft rounds before, here are 5 years 2007-2011 and their goalie results in NHL games played.

2011
#38 NSH Hellberg 3
#39 ANA Gibson 115 is still young but I would say Bernier is better this season
#49 LAK Gibson 4
#62 EDM Perhonen 0
#71 VAN Honzik 0
#88 STL Binnington 1
2010
#11 DAL Campbell 2
#27 ARI Visentin 1
#49 COL Pickard 80 still time to develop but as of now only a 1b not more
#58 CHI Simpson 1
#84 NJD Wedgewood 4 jury is still out
2009
#31 NYI Koskinen 4
#46 OTT Lehner 162 I don't think he is very special
#62 NYI Nilsson 77 I like him as a 1b
#76 ANA Bobkov 0
#77 MIN Hackett 26
#81 PHI Morrison 0
#91 ARI Lee 0
2008
#18 NSH Pickard 0
#30 DET McCollum 3
#31 FLA Markstrom 109 bleh
#34 STL Allen 155 for now a 1b who could get better
#59 DAL Beskorowany 0
#61 COL Delmas 0
#77 BOS Hutchinson 97 nothing special
#83 ANA Cousineau 0
#84 PHI De Serres 0
2007
#36 ARI Gistedt 0
#48 NYR Lafleur 0
#49 COL Cann 0
#54 NSH Smith 8
#83 SJS Pielmeier 1
#86 CHI Unice 0
#91 SJS Sexsmith 0

What a waste of picks. You waste more picks than you get assets in return.
I would trade for Nilsson who was cheap in the past.

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

So because a whole bunch of players bust it's a waste to draft them as well? Goalies bust at the same rate as players which is why scouting is important and doesn't change the fact that most starting goalies come from the first three rounds of the draft with 90% of starting goalies coming from the draft itself. When +50% of starting goalies in the NHL are undrafted goalies than you can definitively say drafting goalies is a waste. If you properly scout/develop goalies than it's not a waste. Same goes for picking any player in the draft. A poorly scouted/developed player will bust. But sure "goalies are voodoo so we'll just pay a 1st for a starter" works too.

 

[airbus220]

If I would do the same for forwards I would get much better draft results.
From the above list I would have traded for Nilsson same as BUF did and they paid a 5th rd pick instead of drafting him at #62 overall.
From those other goalies I would only be interested in Pickard for a 3rd and the good thing is I would have no other goalie busts.
In the past you could have traded for Dubnyk for a 3rd, Halak for a 4th, Mason for a 3rd, Bishop for a 4th, Bobrovsky for a 2nd + 4th + 4th and take advantage of the weak goalie market.

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

If I would do the same for forwards I would get much better draft results.
From the above list I would have traded for Nilsson same as BUF did and they paid a 5th rd pick instead of drafting him at #62 overall.
From those other goalies I would only be interested in Pickard for a 3rd and the good thing is I would have no other goalie busts.
In the past you could have traded for Dubnyk for a 3rd, Halak for a 4th, Mason for a 3rd, Bishop for a 4th, Bobrovsky for a 2nd + 4th + 4th and take advantage of the weak goalie market.

Once again scouting/development makes a difference. If your team is terrible at either scouting/developing it really doesn't matter who you pick or who you bring in. Besides trading for goalies comes with a risk as well. Nashville and Montreal all traded for Dubnyk with no reward.

Rather my team didn't need to trade for a goalie if they've already developed one as if you look at the goalies who were traded from the teams they drafted by it's insane the prices they got for them.
Bishop was traded for a 2nd rounder from the team that drafted him.
Halak was traded by the team that drafted him for Lars Ellers who became two 2nd round picks.
Varlamov was traded for a 1st and 2nd from the Caps
Lehner traded for a 1st round pick from Ottawa
Andersen traded for a 1st+2nd from Anahiem
Jakob Markstrom helped bring Luongo back to Florida
Schneider traded for the 9th overall pick by Vancouver
Mason was traded for a 3rd by Columbus despite losing his spot to Bobrovsky
Bernier was traded for a 1st by Los Angeles

Develop your young goalies properly and you can bring in considerable assets rather than always spending assets to bring in goalies. You can always get players or goalies via trade/free agency but they always come with a price. Ask Dallas how not being able to develop goalies is working for them. Ask Los Angeles how close they were blowing up this season if they didn't get lucky with Budaj because they didn't have an internally developed option. I'm sure Calgary wishes they did better developing goalies so they didn't have to keep spinning the wheel on potential goalies after Kipper retired.

Nashville is doing it right. They have Saros ready to go after Rinne falls off a cliff. Pittsburgh is doing it right with Murray and soon Jarry will be fighting for a spot. Washington is smiling as they're able to move goalies out for assets, it only sucks they didn't know how to manage those assets properly. Blues didn't have to try and give Elliott a raise or spend picks to bring in a starting goalie because they have Allen.

Drafting and developing goalies gives you an advantage over other teams because you can control part of the goaltending market. Bringing in random goalies for low picks works if you just need someone to mind the net during a rebuild. If you want to be competitive you'll be paying in a either drafting/development or in draft picks via trade anyways. You aren't drafting Oettinger/DiPietro/Scott for next season or the season after. You're drafting them so in 5-6 seasons you have that goalie who will help your team during playoff runs/in being competitive.

 

[airbus220]

I agree that we need a good coaching staff to develop goalies and not only goalies. Don't know if we have that and it will take years to find out. What we will see directly is how they manage the starts.
I wouldn't complain if we use 7th round picks on goalies but I expect to get a goalie prospect as a filler in a trade.

 

[LadyStanley]

Many teams have a separate goalie development coach. Part of the coaching staff, but separate (from those who work with D, forwards, and head coach).

Two major reasons: first, it's often the space between the ears that needs to be developed, and who else but someone who's played that position can understand and help the goalie refocus/etc.; second, positioning can be a very important thing, so having the positional experience is important.

 

[Headshot77]

Drafting a goalie in the first round or two is a mistake. But in the third round you should be taking a goalie because then the risk of them being a bust isn't as detrimental to your draft.

 

[Soundgarden]

My philosophy is you don't draft a goalie until the 3rd round or later, unless of course it's a slam dunk like Price or someone. We will have a unique shot at picking up several picks in this draft though, so it shouldn't be out of the question to draft the best goalie available with a 2nd if we get another one and then another in a later round.

 

[LadyStanley]

So many goalies do not mature until later. So, a mid- to late-round prospect is how the Sharks have nominally picked their guys to develop.

(But they're also pretty active on the undrafted free agent stage too. And have picked up some UFA and historically a few trades.)

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

So many goalies do not mature until later. So, a mid- to late-round prospect is how the Sharks have nominally picked their guys to develop.

(But they're also pretty active on the undrafted free agent stage too. And have picked up some UFA and historically a few trades.)

You aren't kidding. Highest round they've ever picked a goalie is the 3rd round and the highest pick used is the 83rd overall pick. I guess picking Kipper/Nabokov in the later rounds has them thinking "who cares about facts, our best goalie in franchise history came from the 9th round so obviously it will happen all the time." If they could have developed a goalie they wouldn't have had to settle for Neimi or trade a 1st for a barely proven Martin Jones (though it's working out really well so you can't complain too much).

 

[LadyStanley]

Niemi "looked good on paper", and played well for SJ, after his Chicago Cup run. But not good enough to get the Sharks to the Finals. Team lost a lot of confidence in their goalie(s).

The Sharks may have manipulated Chicago to get Niemi. The Sharks made an offer sheet to D Hjalmarsson, and Chicago matched. This required Chicago to cut ties with Niemi, whom the Sharks then signed.

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

Niemi "looked good on paper", and played well for SJ, after his Chicago Cup run. But not good enough to get the Sharks to the Finals. Team lost a lot of confidence in their goalie(s).

The Sharks may have manipulated Chicago to get Niemi. The Sharks made an offer sheet to D Hjalmarsson, and Chicago matched. This required Chicago to cut ties with Niemi, whom the Sharks then signed.

That was very crafty maneuvering on the part of San Jose. Shame we don't see it anymore but I'm guessing GM's don't like upsetting other GM's like that. I probably should have said Niemi wasn't so much a mistake as he was a symptom of the issue of lack of development in net. It never feels good to have to settle when you know to make the next step you need the real thing which is why San Jose said screw it use a first on bringing in Jones. As an Avs fan seeing half-measures be taken is brutal.

 

[TheMoose]

They are going to have to do that anyway, otherwise they have to leave Matt Murray unprotected and vegas will grab him in a heartbeat.

Pittsburgh has to get Fleury to waive the NMC so that he can be exposed or so that they can trade him somewhere before the expansion draft, otherwise Matt Murray is your starting goalie for the VGK

Not saying i know.. or maybe i am... If I was able to get odds I'd bet big Fleury has already agreed to waive his NMC clause and will be the starter.

 

[airbus220]

If I was able to get odds I'd bet big Fleury has already agreed to waive his NMC clause and will be the starter.

Since the Expansion Draft will likely be an auction you have to ask these questions.
Who would give up something for Fleury?
Why should someone give up something when Fleury could come with a sweetener before the draft?
Fleury won't be Vegas starter.

I would rather have Lehtonen as a 1a and get an additional sweetener from DAL after the draft.

 

[TheMoose]

Since the Expansion Draft will likely be an auction you have to ask these questions.
Who would give up something for Fleury?
Why should someone give up something when Fleury could come with a sweetener before the draft?
Fleury won't be Vegas starter.

I would rather have Lehtonen as a 1a and get an additional sweetener from DAL after the draft.

Not sure what you mean? If he waives his NMC in order for Penguins to be able to protect Murray then Vegas doesn't have to give up anything. They just select him.

Pretty confident in my source but time will tell. Things could always change.

 

[airbus220]

Not sure what you mean? If he waives his NMC in order for Penguins to be able to protect Murray then Vegas doesn't have to give up anything. They just select him.

Pretty confident in my source but time will tell. Things could always change.

If Fleury waives his NMC, Murray can be protected.
We then can auction Fleury if someone wants him, of course only if we can get something in return.
If other teams have to pay us to get Fleury, they could get Fleury from PIT directly and much cheaper.
Therefore we won't draft Fleury because we won't make a profit.
If Fleury waives his NMC and nobody wants him he will stay in PIT.
At his salary and term I wouldn't want Fleury in Vegas. I'm on bord if we use the draft as an auction to get assets.

Of course things can change. Is Murray in a slump? Is it really the best idea to get rid of Fleury? If Fleury won't waive PIT might have to buy him out.

 

[Curufinwe]

Who do you guys think Vegas are looking at it to be the 3rd goalie and starter for their AHL team?

Korpisalo seems like the most obvious candidate since the Flyers will probably protect Stolarz. They are both waiver-exempt until the start of the 18-19 season, unlike Malcom Subban.

 

[airbus220]

Who do you guys think Vegas are looking at it to be the 3rd goalie and starter for their AHL team?

I would love to have Korpisalo but it's not happening. CBJ should have good skaters exposed and if other teams want to have him he will get auctioned. This is more about strategy than drafting good goalies for us.
Good waiver exempt goalies are hard to get, most teams keep them. I think we will have an older goalie in the AHL who will pass through waivers, maybe Peters, till we have our own waiver exempt goalies.

 

[kovacro]

I'll go with Sparks or Bibeau from the Leafs. Just a pure guess.

 

[Vegas Mac]

I'd try to get Bishop signed for a reasonable deal and then look to add a younger backup with some upside. Bishop has gotten a lot of flak for this season, but a guy like him is going to bounce back. He is the guy I would want in goal and as a leader on this team.

Lots of options. Team is going to be good between the pipes right out the gate.

 

[BlueBaron]

Drafting a goalie in the first round or two is a mistake. But in the third round you should be taking a goalie because then the risk of them being a bust isn't as detrimental to your draft.

Yes I have to agree. I'd use my picks something like:

1rst round : a C
2nd round : a D
3rd round : a G

No mention of Subban so far, he'd be my choice to back up.

 

[BlueBaron]

They are going to have to do that anyway, otherwise they have to leave Matt Murray unprotected and vegas will grab him in a heartbeat.

Pittsburgh has to get Fleury to waive the NMC so that he can be exposed or so that they can trade him somewhere before the expansion draft, otherwise Matt Murray is your starting goalie for the VGK

Or they will buy him out which is the most likely scenario because Fluery is in control. Thinking Martin will be exposed is a pipe dream.

 

[JuniorNelson]

I'd try to get Bishop signed for a reasonable deal and then look to add a younger backup with some upside. Bishop has gotten a lot of flak for this season, but a guy like him is going to bounce back. He is the guy I would want in goal and as a leader on this team.

Lots of options. Team is going to be good between the pipes right out the gate.

I think those options will dry up before they reach market. Knights will be choosing from a pool of career back-ups. I think they know this and will concentrate on a strong defense. They might as well, they won't be getting useful centers.

 

[txpd]

Very likely you will end up with Philip Grubauer