OT: Let's talk about movies (and TV shows)... Part IV

[Kimota]

Most of today's big movies are so full of plot holes and tortuous logic it's not even funny.

What I find frightening is that most people just don't see it anymore. And I'm not talking about young guys, I'm talking about basically everyone. So it seems that if you flash some images fast enough and for long enough in somebody's face, this person is likely to develop ADHD.

I think it's fans pretty much giving up and surrendering to corporate mediocrity. lol

And the thing is, I think it's filmakers that are making it hard for themselves for no reasons by coming up with these Labyrintic scripts. And when it gets too crazy they try to solve of their problems but it causes other problems by doing so. And instead of re-writting the script they say "oh well let it stay that way, that's too much to change, fans will accept it". Like in DOFP, people will remember how cool Quicksilver was for 5 minutes and forget that he wasn't that important and forget other stupid elements.

The success of X2 was that it was really a simple story. A story that they then gave some meat to along the way. But I mean it's Striker wanting to capture mutants and most of the movie it's the X-Men running around the old Weapon x base. But the execution was so good that it didn't need to be crazy ideas per se. It was a simple script but with great dialogue and characterization and the director didn't screw it up.

 

[DAChampion]

I think it's fans pretty much giving up and surrendering to corporate mediocrity. lol

And the thing is, I think it's filmakers that are making it hard for themselves for no reasons by coming up with these Labyrintic scripts. And when it gets too crazy they try to solve of their problems but it causes other problems by doing so. And instead of re-writting the script they say "oh well let it stay that way, that's too much to change, fans will accept it". Like in DOFP, people will remember how cool Quicksilver was for 5 minutes and forget that he wasn't that important and forget other stupid elements.

The success of X2 was that it was really a simple story. A story that they then gave some meat to along the way. But I mean it's Striker wanting to capture mutants and most of the movie it's the X-Men running around the old Weapon x base. But the execution was so good that it didn't need to be crazy ideas per se. It was a simple script but with great dialogue and characterization and the director didn't screw it up.

Days of Future Past is a good example of Hollywood writing the screenplays that people want. Here's a movie with weak, unearned character arcs, a lot of plot holes, a bloated story, an ending that makes no sense and more nonsense at every step before that ... and it has a 92% on Rotten Tomatoes, the geek sites loved it, and it has grossed 700+ million worldwide. It is a great screenplay in the sense that it has accomplished every goal that a corporate studio would desire.

Dawn of the Planet of the Apes is better, and it has grossed much less money.

 

[Kimota]

You can't pretend audience expectations are the same in 2014 as they were in 1975 though. Audiences today demand to be titillated with more gore, more explosions, more sex, etc. If the exact same version of Jaws were released for the very first time today, people would probably say it was boring. Because they've already seen so much more elsewhere.

I think Hollywood thinks people are more stupid than they are.

I mean not it's like Piranah Double D and Sharknado are making Billions.

Also another thing is that most of the movie studios are run by corporations and these guys only think about the bottom line and graphics and demographics, they don't care about art. While when Jaws was made, it was still the old stystem where they were MOVIE STUDIOS and not corporations and it was their life blood to make movies. They knew how to make them and it was their priority. The reason why Jaws would not get made the way it was back then now it's just cause these executives lack balls. And Jaws itsels was an adventure just to get it made. Same thing with Apocalypse Now and other "guerilla-style" epic movie-making.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I think Hollywood thinks people are more stupid than they are.

I mean not it's like Piranah Double D and Sharknado are making Billions.

Also another thing is that most of the movie studios are run by corporations and these guys only think about the bottom line and graphics and demographics, they don't care about art. While when Jaws was made, it was still the old stystem where they were MOVIE STUDIOS and not corporations and it was their life blood to make movies. They knew how to make them and it was their priority. The reason why Jaws would not get made the way it was back then now it's just cause these executives lack balls. And Jaws itsels was an adventure just to get it made. Same thing with Apocalypse Now and other "guerilla-style" epic movie-making.

The other big movie that changed everything (in a negative way) was Heaven's Gate. Studios used to have balls because they wouldn't get too badly burned by the flops.

Michael Cimino was fresh off the incredible Deer Hunter and decided to make an epic western. Like Spielberg on Jaws he had huge cost overruns and the movie seemed like it was never going to get made. When it finally was, it was a disaster at the box office and basically bankrupted United Artists. After that, came the cookie cutter formulaic schlock that we know and love today. "Sure American Ninja II is horrible... but if it makes us 4 million, we can do it."

Today's movies want to emulate Jaws, but have none of the soul, screenplay or storyline to support it. It's basically a CGI fest intending to bring in the crowds - but it has none of the power of the blockbuster that started it all to begin with.

 

[Kimota]

Days of Future Past is a good example of Hollywood writing the screenplays that people want. Here's a movie with weak, unearned character arcs, a lot of plot holes, a bloated story, an ending that makes no sense and more nonsense at every step before that ... and it has a 92% on Rotten Tomatoes, the geek sites loved it, and it has grossed 700+ million worldwide. It is a great screenplay in the sense that it has accomplished every goal that a corporate studio would desire.

Dawn of the Planet of the Apes is better, and it has grossed much less money.

Yea that's like a movie made by committy and trying to please as much people possible even though the story sucks.

(Nevermind that all Wolverine had to do was let Mystique shot Trask but prevent her from being electrocuted afterwards so she wouldn't get captured and they wouldn't be able to make the invincible Sentinels)

That's a shame cause I loved First Class.

 

[Kimota]

The other big movie that changed everything (in a negative way) was Heaven's Gate. Studios used to have balls because they wouldn't get too badly burned by the flops.

Michael Cimino was fresh off the incredible Deer Hunter and decided to make an epic western. Like Spielberg on Jaws he had huge cost overruns and the movie seemed like it was never going to get made. When it finally was, it was a disaster at the box office and basically bankrupted United Artists. After that, came the cookie cutter formulaic schlock that we know and love today. "Sure American Ninja II is horrible... but if it makes us 4 million, we can do it."

Today's movies want to emulate Jaws, but have none of the soul, screenplay or storyline to support it. It's basically a CGI fest intending to bring in the crowds - but it has none of the power of the blockbuster that started it all to begin with.

And I hate Cimino to this day for it. That being said, big movies in the 80s, after Cimino's disaster still had meat around the bone, they still knew how to make movies. There's nothing that can be compared to Raiders now. I saw Runaway Train and it was this awesome epic movie with great writing, great characters, fantastic effects, gripping directing. If it was done now, the whole train would be CGI and the lead character would have been judged too old and ugly.

And all I have to say after all this is: Get off My Lawn, kids!

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

And I hate Cimino to this day for it. That being said, big movies in the 80s, after Cimino's disaster still had meat around the bone, they still knew how to make movies. There's nothing that can be compared to Raiders now. I saw Runaway Train and it was this awesome epic movie with great writing, great characters, fantastic effects, gripping directing. If it was done now, the whole train would be CGI and the lead character would have been judged too old and ugly.

And all I have to say after all this is: Get off My Lawn, kids!

Well, Spielberg was the exception. He could do whatever the hell he wanted to after Jaws.

The movie studios weren't going to sign him to some kind of silly bridge deal after that.

 

[DAChampion]

We all better hope that Christopher Nolan's Interstellar doesn't flop. This is a case of a director leveraging his tremendous box office and critical success (The Dark Knight Trilogy, Inception) to make an original science fiction property that tells an actual story and is built with a large budget. If it bombs, then that will teach Hollywood that even Christopher Nolan shouldn't be trusted with a large budget.

 

[Kimota]

We all better hope that Christopher Nolan's Interstellar doesn't flop. This is a case of a director leveraging his tremendous box office and critical success (The Dark Knight Trilogy, Inception) to make an original science fiction property that tells an actual story and is built with a large budget. If it bombs, then that will teach Hollywood that even Christopher Nolan shouldn't be trusted with a large budget.

I think LOTR proved that if you trust a director with creative freedom and if the director doesn't go too crazy that it can deliver artistic-wise and financial-wise. I wish Hollywood would have taken that root cause it showed that that worked. Same thing with the Nolan's Bat-flicks.

 

[Kimota]

Well, Spielberg was the exception. He could do whatever the hell he wanted to after Jaws.

The movie studios weren't going to sign him to some kind of silly bridge deal after that.

Lucas should have gotten a bridge deal. Dude got too rich too soon and got lazy. lol

 

[GlassesJacketShirt]

We all better hope that Christopher Nolan's Interstellar doesn't flop. This is a case of a director leveraging his tremendous box office and critical success (The Dark Knight Trilogy, Inception) make an original science fiction property that tells an actual story and is built with a large budget. If it bombs, then that will teach Hollywood that even Christopher Nolan shouldn't be trusted with a large budget.

I think Nolan, barring a huge flop of a movie on a quality level, is almost bulletproof at this point. His Batman resume will keep people going to all of his films at this point. Just put his name on the trailer in some form, and bingo. Having McConaughey does not hurt either. Still, you are correct: having a Nolan film flop could send huge shockwaves that could further distill Hollywood's bottom line.

At the same time, I agree with the overall idea of this discussion despite me finding Nolan's films to be overrated (aside from maybe Memento), mostly because I find his meticulous planning and terrific execution do not entirely succeed at hiding a lack of substance to his films. My overall opinion is this: he's a top notch technical director who knows how to set the scene like clockwork, yet without being a truly visionary storyteller to make his films unforgettable.

 

[DAChampion]

I think Nolan, barring a huge flop of a movie on a quality level, is almost bulletproof at this point. His Batman resume will keep people going to all of his films at this point. Just put his name on the trailer in some form, and bingo. Having McConaughey does not hurt either. Still, you are correct: having a Nolan film flop could send huge shockwaves that could further distill Hollywood's bottom line.

At the same time, I agree with the overall idea of this discussion despite me finding Nolan's films to be overrated (aside from maybe Memento), mostly because I find his meticulous planning and terrific execution do not entirely succeed at hiding a lack of substance to his films. My overall opinion is this: he's a top notch technical director who knows how to set the scene like clockwork, yet without being a truly visionary storyteller to make his films unforgettable.

He's a visionary. His approach to Batman, for example, is totally distinct from what other directors have tried with the CBM genre now totalling ~60 movies, and he's been copied immensely. and the prestige was great too.

He's overrated because he's the best director to make blockbusters that people actually watch, he is simply better than Peter Jackson and JJ Abrams and Michael Bay and those people. To film nerds, the loud chorus of "he's the best" makes him overrated since they know of other good directors of movies people don't watch.

 

[GlassesJacketShirt]

He's a visionary. His approach to Batman, for example, is totally distinct from what other directors have tried with the CBM genre now totalling ~60 movies, and he's been copied immensely. and the prestige was great too.

He's overrated because he's the best director to make blockbusters that people actually watch, he is simply better than Peter Jackson and JJ Abrams and Michael Bay and those people. To film nerds, the loud chorus of "he's the best" makes him overrated since they know of other good directors of movies people don't watch.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I truly do appreciate what he did with the Batman films. In fact, the recent Marvel movies made me like them even more, as his films succeeded in creating a serious tone that favorably contrasts with the over-populist Thors and X-mens of the world.

However, if I had to nail down a reason why I always find something missing with his films, I think it would ultimately come down to the characters not being particularly great. Often static and sometimes all over the map, I find they are far too dependent on the actors portraying them rather than being well developed. As someone who places a lot of emphasis on characters being key to resonance, this kind of always bothered me when I suddenly realize the film's awesomeness doesn't linger into an emotional high after I leave the theater.

 

[Brainiac]

I think it's fans pretty much giving up and surrendering to corporate mediocrity. lol

And the thing is, I think it's filmakers that are making it hard for themselves for no reasons by coming up with these Labyrintic scripts. And when it gets too crazy they try to solve of their problems but it causes other problems by doing so. And instead of re-writting the script they say "oh well let it stay that way, that's too much to change, fans will accept it". Like in DOFP, people will remember how cool Quicksilver was for 5 minutes and forget that he wasn't that important and forget other stupid elements.

My answer is simple: no...

 

[DAChampion]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I truly do appreciate what he did with the Batman films. In fact, the recent Marvel movies made me like them even more, as his films succeeded in creating a serious tone that favorably contrasts with the over-populist Thors and X-mens of the world.

However, if I had to nail down a reason why I always find something missing with his films, I think it would ultimately come down to the characters not being particularly great. Often static and sometimes all over the map, I find they are far too dependent on the actors portraying them rather than being well developed. As someone who places a lot of emphasis on characters being key to resonance, this kind of always bothered me when I suddenly realize the film's awesomeness doesn't linger into an emotional high after I leave the theater.

He does interesting plots and interesting ideas more so than interesting characters. It's kind of a throwback to 1950s science fiction like Isaac Asimov.

 

[GlassesJacketShirt]

He does interesting plots and interesting ideas more so than interesting characters. It's kind of a throwback to 1950s science fiction like Isaac Asimov.

I think we are in total agreeance on that front. Hopefully Interstellar can continue his rap sheet, although I kind of wonder if I already know how the film ends.

 

[DAChampion]

I think we are in total agreeance on that front. Hopefully Interstellar can continue his rap sheet, although I kind of wonder if I already know how the film ends.

What do you think is the ending?

I'm going to guess more or less the same Planet of the Apes 1968, this new distant world through the worm hole where they can grow wheat is distant in time but not space, it's simply a different era of Earth.

Though ... might be hard to argue that the solar system wouldn't be recognisable in the distant future.

 

[NewfoundlandHab]

I can, and have, written thousands of words about Community.

tl;dr - It started within a structure (group, single-cam, sitcom) and subverted it to success. Then, toward the end of s2, it began to twist in and over itself and somehow ended up being the very thing they were satirizing (shallow, one-note, sentimental) and it went to absolute, detestable **** in s3.

I was the show's biggest fan and was begging my friends to watch s1 and s2 - it was fresh and it was clever, authentically clever. It would play with TV tropes, simultaneously mocking and abiding by them. Then the show lost, or gave up, on trying to keep its inherent structure and betrayed its characters.

I can't stand the Dean, Chang and especially Abed. I didn't even bother watching s5.
Happy Endings is a sitcom which should've stayed on, and HBO's Hello Ladies. Alas.

Community is returning for a 6th season via Yahoo! screen, for anyone interested.

http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/...urn-for-sixth-season-on-yahoo-screen-20140701

I agree that it started off as very fresh and unique. As the series went on it abandoned all that made it so successful. It's a shame, really.

 

[GlassesJacketShirt]

What do you think is the ending?

I'm going to guess more or less the same Planet of the Apes 1968, this new distant world through the worm hole where they can grow wheat is distant in time but not space, it's simply a different era of Earth.

Though ... might be hard to argue that the solar system wouldn't be recognisable in the distant future.

Pretty much, in fact I find the story details, mixed with the trailer, kinda point in that direction a little too much. Hopefully there's more to it than that.

 

[Andy]

I think there has been as much crap, mediocre and formulaic movies way back before the modern era also. The 40s,50s and 60s are filled with movies that attempt to follow a successful formula.

I think people are just being nostalgic here. There have been so many great movies over the years. Not everything can be a master piece. Sure, the studios want to make money, but they've always wanted to do so, it isn't anything new. For every 10-15 POS movies there are 1-2 great ones, this hasn't changed.

Hell, I'm sure people were having this same conversation in the 70s, 80s and 90s as well.

 

[Habsawce]

The very first season of Survivor was sort of a guilty pleasure. But from then it seems most TV reality shows went south.

For me, a guilty pleasure would be all these movies and TV shows that just don't make sense but I still look at them because they have some redeeming features (sfx, good photography, etc.) The Raid would be a great example.

But then again, if you want to talk about another kind of guilty pleasures, I've got to mention something like Rambo: First Blood. I mean, just try to criticize a scene and say it was not relevant to the plot. That movie was just great.

Rambo is a classic movie that when you see it originally you can't get enough but going back you wonder why you liked it so much. (but secretly still love it )

I'd say that movie for me would be Goonies and Gremlins oh and original cartoon Transformer movie!

 

[habamillions]

Finally got a chance to watch prisoners with jake gylenhaal and huge jackman. very good movie bit the ending bugged me. too many questions. anyone else see it? or agree?

 

[Agnostic]

Finally got a chance to watch prisoners with jake gylenhaal and huge jackman. very good movie bit the ending bugged me. too many questions. anyone else see it? or agree?

Prisoners is one of the very few movies where I pretty much figured out the ending before it happened and that's a let down for me.

What are the questions that torment you?

 

[Agnostic]

I parked Orange is the new black after 3 eps but now many people are telling me to watch. What do people here think?

 

[Agnostic]

Back in the 70's a mechanical shark filmed in a lagoon was an innovative and exciting matter in film. I haven't seen that movie in years I wonder how it stands up but a CGI version would be like a Jay-z version of an Ac/dc song. Not very interesting to those who experienced the original.