Letang for the HoF?

[KidLine93]

Depends on what happens on the back end of his career.

He has a similar case to Zubov at the moment.

# 1 D for the closest thing to a dynasty we have seen since the cap. Likely hits 600 pts. Possibly 700.

Could easily see him getting in.

Chicago? Who had Keith

 

[Gurglesons]

Chicago? Who had Keith

Chicago ain’t a dynasty.

 

[KidLine93]

Chicago ain’t a dynasty.

Neither is Pittsburgh. Chicago was closest by a mile though. 3 cups in 6 years

 

[Gurglesons]

Neither is Pittsburgh. Chicago was closest by a mile though. 3 cups in 6 years

Back to back is close than 3 in 6

 

[KidLine93]

Back to back is close than 3 in 6

3 in 6 is better than 3 in 9

 

[DearDiary]

3 in 6 is better than 3 in 9

Pens have 4 finals, 3 cups and make the playoffs every single season. Hawks missing the playoffs is a big negative

 

[Gurglesons]

3 in 6 is better than 3 in 9

True. Difference being Pens have constantly made the playoffs and their core hasn’t dropped off which is why Letang still has a case to extend his legacy which is my point.

 

[KidLine93]

True. Difference being Pens have constantly made the playoffs and their core hasn’t dropped off which is why Letang still has a case to extend his legacy.

Dynasties are about championships. No one cares they made the playoffs and got swept in the first round or lost in the first round 5 times since the cup in 2010. Now if they win another championship in the next year or 2 then yeah that would be more impressive. But again thats counting chickens before they hatch.

 

[KidLine93]

Pens have 4 finals, 3 cups and make the playoffs every single season. Hawks missing the playoffs is a big negative

Again this is about dynasties. No one cares the penguins lost in the first round 5 times. The year chicago lost to LA everyone knew the winner of that series would be the cup champs since they were way stronger than the east teams. But at the end of the day no one cares about 2nd, 3rd, 4th place. Either you win the championship or you dont and Chicago showed dominance in that 6 year span winning 3. Now Pitt can win one in the next year or 2 then that would be more impressive than chicagos but they haven't done that yet and they're not considered a front runner this year either

 

[nbwingsfan]

I remember two off-seasons ago many Pens fans wanted him gone for free and considered him a cap dump. Now he’s a future HoF player?

He’s not even close.

 

[mr figgles]

I’m not feeling the Zubov/Housley arguments. Prime Zubov and Housley would have won multiple Norris trophies playing with Crosby and Malkin.

 

[MVP of West Hollywd]

The Blackhawks seemed like Toews, Kane and Keith's team. The Penguins have never felt like Crosby, Malkin and Letang's team. Obviously some of that is the star power of their forwards, but he is more like a good player on their team than a real franchise guy.

 

[Gurglesons]

The Blackhawks seemed like Toews, Kane and Keith's team. The Penguins have never felt like Crosby, Malkin and Letang's team. Obviously some of that is the star power of their forwards, but he is more like a good player on their team than a real franchise guy.

Lol what?

 

[Dondini]

That first cup win of their back to backs he was the CS winner foresure, absolutely controlled the flow of every game. He was a beast and still playing great. I think he gets in. 0.68 career ppg and 0.61 career playoff ppg.

 

[heysmilinstrange]

I remember two off-seasons ago many Pens fans wanted him gone for free and considered him a cap dump. Now he’s a future HoF player?

He’s not even close.

"Many" Pens fans said this? Not a chance.

 

[DickSmehlik]

And I’d put Keith and Karlsson above all of the D listed there outside of Lidstrom and Bourque. Chelios is probably in their range.

Just lol at Chelios being "probably" in the same range as Karlsson.

 

[Gurglesons]

Just lol at Chelios being "probably" in the same range as Karlsson.

What is odd about this?

Karlsson is probably the most offensively talented defenseman since Orr in terms of era adjusted stats and should probably have 4 Norris Trophies.

 

[DickSmehlik]

This is a poor argument to make, because it relies on nostalgia to make the point. Quit comparing guys of today to guys of the past to make an argument about someone's qualifications today; judge them relative to their peers, which is what the measuring stick should always be.

And on that measuring stick, Letang is still behind his peers.

Is it just nostalgia though?

The defenseman of Zubov's era were really good for a lot longer than the defenseman of Letang's era.

Bourque was playing at an All-Star level for the entirety of career (he was selected to be an All-Star for 19 seasons), Coffey was an All-Star for 14 seasons, including the tail end of his career. Chelios and Leetch were 11 time All-Stars.

Letang didn't have to compete with as many perennial contenders. Keith and Karlsson, 2 of the best of Letang's era, both have played in just 6 All-Star games, and while both are active, I don't see too many more for them on the horizon (maybe Karlsson). And guys like Burns, Giodono and Subban, while having had great seasons, aren't permanent annual roadblocks.

 

[Gurglesons]

Is it just nostalgia though?

The defenseman of Zubov's era were really good for a lot longer than the defenseman of Letang's era.

Bourque was playing at an All-Star level for the entirety of career (he was selected to be an All-Star for 19 seasons), Coffey was an All-Star for 14 seasons, including the tail end of his career. Chelios and Leetch were 11 time All-Stars.

Letang didn't have to compete with as many perennial contenders. Keith and Karlsson, 2 of the best of Letang's era, both have played in just 6 All-Star games, and while both are active, I don't see too many more for them on the horizon (maybe Karlsson). And guys like Burns, Giodono and Subban, while having had great seasons, aren't permanent annual roadblocks.

Well, I mean Chara, Weber, and Lidstrom have all been part of “Letang’s era”.

Also, all star games are how you rate legacies?

 

[DickSmehlik]

What is odd about this?

Karlsson is probably the most offensively talented defenseman since Orr in terms of era adjusted stats and should probably have 4 Norris Trophies.

The idea that Chelios with his actual 3 Norris trophies, 1,900 + games, 3 Stanley Cups and 11 time All-Star selections is "probably" comparable to Karlsson is lol worthy. Sorry, if you don't see it.

 

[Gurglesons]

The idea that Chelios with his actual 3 Norris trophies, 1,900 + games, 3 Stanley Cups and 11 time All-Star selections is "probably" comparable to Karlsson is lol worthy. Sorry, if you don't see it.

Meh. I don’t really care much about compiling. Karlsson is a top ten D all time already. Not sure Chelios is.

Also, hard to judge Karlsson for not making a cup run. He was as he could be in his two conference finals appearances.

 

[The Macho King]

Well, I mean Chara, Weber, and Lidstrom have all been part of “Letang’s era”.

Also, all star games are how you rate legacies?

I initially thought it was postseason all stars, but Leetch definitely didn't do that 11 times.

 

[Hockeyholic]

3 in 6 is better than 3 in 9

Neither are "Dynasties". Had the Pens won a cup in 2014, then repeated in 16 & 17 (Which they did), they would be a modern dynasty.

The Hawks never won back to back titles. In between 2010 and 2013, they lost in the first round. Winning consecutive titles is the minimum requirement for any team to be a "Dynasty" imo.

The San Antonio Spurs were never a "Dynasty". They won in 99. Didn't win until 03. Won in 05. Then in 07. Four in nine years. Impressive? Yes. Dynasty? Nope.

The Warriors were a dynasty. The Bulls were. The Lakers were. The Isles & Oilers were. Pats between 01-04.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Meh. I don’t really care much about compiling. Karlsson is a top ten D all time already. Not sure Chelios is.

Also, hard to judge Karlsson for not making a cup run. He was as he could be in his two conference finals appearances.

Yeah...no. Karlsson isn't better than Chelios was. Do up a poll.

 

[XanderCrews34]

Just a couple interesting notes comparing Letang if you care about advanced stats

(first to Zubov and Chelios)

At the end of this season, Letang will probably be ahead of Zubov in point shares through 13 seasons for each if not almost exactly even with him with more than 100 fewer GP's.

A weird stat is (points shares/games played) which Letang and Chelios are almost exactly the same through their first 13 seasons.

(now comparing him with some modern counterparts)

Letang leads Chara, Keith, and Doughty in my made-up (point shares/games played) stat - which would just mean he produces more point shares in the average game he plays.

Letang is also 3rd in the entire NHL in expected +/- (behind only #1 Crosby and #2 Bergeron) - and is the #1 Dman for expected +/- since they started keeping the stat in 14-15 on hockeyreference.

You can quibble about the usefulness of things like point shares and expected +/- but it's clear that Letang is absolutely no slouch but is very rarely recognized for being as good as he is because he's a hot head, he's got an injury history, and he plays on a team that has Sidney Crosby and Mr. 101 Malkin.

I'm not saying he's better than Zubov, Chara, Keith, Doughty, etc. because of point shares and stuff like that - but I do think as a caliber of player he 100% belongs in that class.