Letang for the HoF?

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I don't see a poll on the poll section anywhere...

You asked to offer up facts. Those are facts.

Your insistence on a poll tells me that you’re still falling victim to the argument ad populum fallacy. A poll on this website isn’t going to prove anything.

 

[XanderCrews34]

Lolol. He actually posted that though.

It's probably not a great sign for him that I actually posted it *before* he could hahaha

 

[Kuznetsnow]

What do you think, is he a Hall of Famer?

No Norris but 2-time 2nd team All-star , won 3 cups, and by the time he retires should have 600-700 points or more. I feel like he's in the Zubov class of player, but feel free to explain why/why not and what kind of comparables you have for him.

I don't think I've ever seen a bigger insult to Zubov on these boards

 

[XanderCrews34]

I don't think I've ever seen a bigger insult to Zubov on these boards

Then Zubov has been very lightly insulted because Letang is above Zubov in PPG, is matching pace in point shares, has multiple Cups, All-Star game selections, and has extremely strong advanced numbers.

If you want to throw award stuff in there, Letang has better career Norris finishes, more AS appearances, and another Cup would cement his place.

 

[b in vancouver]

He's a lesser version of Keith Yandle in a way better situation. Keith Yandle has similar production playing most of his career with little support while Letang has had a murder's row of offence to feed the puck to and - y'know Gonchar on the back-end for much of his career.

He might get in if they over-value his Rings or if he has a really successful back half of his career but right now there's a lot more players in that 30-35 age bracket deserving. I doubt he'd crack the top 20 for players from even those five years and there'll be a good for of those 20 whom either won't make it in or will wait a long time.

 

[Crease]

He's not in my HOF but he should get his number retired in Pittsburgh and that's a fantastic career.

 

[XanderCrews34]

He's a lesser version of Keith Yandle in a way better situation. Keith Yandle has similar production playing most of his career with little support while Letang has had a murder's row of offence to feed the puck to and - y'know Gonchar on the back-end for much of his career.

He might get in if they over-value his Rings or if he has a really successful back half of his career but right now there's a lot more players in that 30-35 age bracket deserving. I doubt he'd crack the top 20 for players from even those five years and there'll be a good for of those 20 whom either won't make it in or will wait a long time.

LESSER version of Yandle? Letang is has 30 fewer points in about 160 fewer games AND plays much better defense than Yandle.

I've been scouring every source of advanced data and can't find ONE metric that Yandle outperforms Letang. Corsi, Fenwick, GF%, xGF&, SCF%, High Danger SCF% - ALL of them strongly favor Letang. As in the gap between Letang and Yandle is much bigger than any perceived gap between Letang and, say, Doughty or Keith.

There's nothing that supports your assertion. Not to mention Letang played the equivalent of 2 season's worth of games with Gonch. There's just nothing that I could find that would support this idea that Yandle is a better version of Letang. On his best day, Yandle is a lesser Letang. Show me something that says otherwise.

 

[b in vancouver]

Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Bergeron, P. Kane, Keith, Karlsson are top tier locks from his age group.
Toews, Kopitar, Doughty, Stamkos are right behind them.
Getzlaf, E. Staal, Burns, Backstrom, Giroux, Weber
Perry has a great trophy case. Benn and Subban have won major awards. Kessel has compiled. r. Suter. Marchand is getting there. Wheeler? J. Carter?
Krejci, Yandle, Parise, etc. - guys whom won't get in but have had great careers.
Price, Rask, Fleury and Holtby will all get consideration but not sure how goalie voting works.

Imperfect list as I'm sure I'm missing guys but that's a general look at his age group - 2 or so years on either side. That's his competition plus whomever I've forgotten/mistakes.
He's somewhere in the 4th line probably (plus whichever goalies make it) so that puts him outside of the top 20 against his contemporaries.
With an average of three or so a year there's going to be some very good players waiting and filling up the queue.

 

[XanderCrews34]

He's not in my HOF but he should get his number retired in Pittsburgh and that's a fantastic career.

I would tend to agree that *right now* it'd be uncertain whether he'd make it (at best). But he's got enough good years of hockey left if he stays injury-free. One Norris or one more Cup would make him almost a certainty, IMO.

It's hard to imagine but he's definitely still got some good years left barring good health. The missed chance at the Norris due to injury the year Subban won was a really bummer. One Norris and I don't think anyone would realistically doubt his chances. As it stands, he's probably got some work to do...even if I think his production is as good as Keith or Doughty.

 

[b in vancouver]

LESSER version of Yandle? Letang is has 30 fewer points in about 160 fewer games AND plays much better defense than Yandle.

I've been scouring every source of advanced data and can't find ONE metric that Yandle outperforms Letang. Corsi, Fenwick, GF%, xGF&, SCF%, High Danger SCF% - ALL of them strongly favor Letang. As in the gap between Letang and Yandle is much bigger than any perceived gap between Letang and, say, Doughty or Keith.

There's nothing that supports your assertion. Not to mention Letang played the equivalent of 2 season's worth of games with Gonch. There's just nothing that I could find that would support this idea that Yandle is a better version of Letang. On his best day, Yandle is a lesser Letang. Show me something that says otherwise.

I concede most of your point and that Letang is better - although stats are going to be skewed because of their career situations to a not minor degree. I always have thought of them as similar impact players, and personally prefer Yandle, but didn't do a deep dive.
I posted my thoughts about 'competition' that you might find more interesting. People often reference past players - but I tend to look at contemporaries.

I don't dislike Letang and can definitely see a path to The Hall for him. I do think though that he's either going to be one of those guys that needs a lengthy career or that he's going to be waiting around for quite awhile.

 

[Samus44]

Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Bergeron, P. Kane, Keith, Karlsson are top tier locks from his age group.
Toews, Kopitar, Doughty, Stamkos are right behind them.
Getzlaf, E. Staal, Burns, Backstrom, Giroux, Weber
Perry has a great trophy case. Benn and Subban have won major awards. Kessel has compiled. Marchand is getting there. Wheeler? J. Carter?
Krejci, Yandle, R. Suter, etc. - guys whom won't get in but
Price, Rask, Fleury and Holtby will all get consideration but not sure how goalie voting works.

Imperfect list as I'm sure I'm missing guys but that's a general look at his age group - 2 or so years on either side. That's his competition plus whomever I've forgotten/mistakes.
He's somewhere in the 4th line probably (plus whichever goalies make it) so that puts him outside of the top 20 against his contemporaries.
With an average of three or so a year there's going to be some very good players waiting and filling up the queue.

Suter absolutely should get in he's an outstanding defender and was a #1 dman for over 10 years and has been top pairing good in the years he hasn't been one. He's a big reason why he's been on good teams year in and year out. Yandle isn't even close to HoF consideration, he can't defend top players that's a big reason why he's always on losing teams. Letang is a HoF player in my books because he's been a true #1 dman in ALL facets of the game, Yandle's a #1 D on the PP and that's it. Defensemen need to play defense first it's why Housley's gawdy numbers were almost not enough. Kris Letang has been a top 10 Dman, or damn close at least, in pretty much every season he's been healthy in. Same thing with Suter before iirc was an ankle injury.

 

[RVACapsFan]

One top-3 Norris finish in his career. that’s gonna be a no from me, dawg.

 

[edog37]

Then Zubov has been very lightly insulted because Letang is above Zubov in PPG, is matching pace in point shares, has multiple Cups, All-Star game selections, and has extremely strong advanced numbers.

If you want to throw award stuff in there, Letang has better career Norris finishes, more AS appearances, and another Cup would cement his place.

Zubov getting in was ridiculous. If Letang got in without some significant piece of hardware that would even be more ridiculous.

 

[b in vancouver]

Suter absolutely should get in he's an outstanding defender and was a #1 dman for over 10 years and has been top pairing good in the years he hasn't been one. He's a big reason why he's been on good teams year in and year out. Yandle isn't even close to HoF consideration, he can't defend top players that's a big reason why he's always on losing teams. Letang is a HoF player in my books because he's been a true #1 dman in ALL facets of the game, Yandle's a #1 D on the PP and that's it. Defensemen need to play defense first it's why Housley's gawdy numbers were almost not enough. Kris Letang has been a top 10 Dman, or damn close at least, in pretty much every season he's been healthy in. Same thing with Suter before iirc was an ankle injury.

I really like Suter. - and should've had him a line above (might edit) I did it pretty quick. Not perfect.
This is The Hall so it's not just about how good a player has been it's also about accomplishments and that's how I can see an argument for Letang. Players like Suter can get hung out to dry but a player like Toews is a lock. Both great players and I'd have a tough time choosing.
The list was more to illustrate how hard it still actually is to get into The HHOF despite what everyone says.

They're all around the same age but the top 10-15 guys simply have more impressive resumes.

 

[Samus44]

Zubov getting in was ridiculous. If Letang got in without some significant piece of hardware that would even be more ridiculous.

Zubov not getting in would have been ridiculous. When he was in NY and Pitt he was an offensive powerhouse but only that, a very good player but probably not a guy who's defense merited being a HoF guy. However in Dallas he became a complete player and especially after Hatcher left he developed the game to play in any situation and do it well. Zubov was unreal and as a fan of a team that gut burned by the Stars time and time again it was him and not Modano that scared me the most with the puck in the o-zone. He was just so lethal on the PP. If Zubov was a Canadian or American i'd bet he'd have been a 1st ballot HoF guy. I've never understood how anyone didn't see him as elite.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

One top-3 Norris finish in his career. that’s gonna be a no from me, dawg.

MAF has zero top 3 Vezina finishes yet everyone's penciling him into the Hall.

 

[Sens9292]

No, not close.

 

[hypereconomist]

Letang is really good, but not quite HHOF-level. He'd be a worse induction than Housley, who was a worse induction than Zubov.

However, Letang has a really similar record to Housley for AS and Norris voting. He also has a similar playing style and talent level. If he can string together a few more good offensive seasons, there's a pretty good chance he'll eventually make it in under a similar pretense as Housley did.

 

[Gurglesons]

Zubov not getting in would have been ridiculous. When he was in NY and Pitt he was an offensive powerhouse but only that, a very good player but probably not a guy who's defense merited being a HoF guy. However in Dallas he became a complete player and especially after Hatcher left he developed the game to play in any situation and do it well. Zubov was unreal and as a fan of a team that gut burned by the Stars time and time again it was him and not Modano that scared me the most with the puck in the o-zone. He was just so lethal on the PP. If Zubov was a Canadian or American i'd bet he'd have been a 1st ballot HoF guy. I've never understood how anyone didn't see him as elite.

If Zubov is in. Letang deserves to be in.

 

[billybudd]

He also has a similar playing style

Letang has a similar playing style to Housley? Phil Housley?

 

[Civetty]

Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Bergeron, P. Kane, Keith, Karlsson are top tier locks from his age group.
Toews, Kopitar, Doughty, Stamkos are right behind them.
Getzlaf, E. Staal, Burns, Backstrom, Giroux, Weber
Perry has a great trophy case. Benn and Subban have won major awards. Kessel has compiled. r. Suter. Marchand is getting there. Wheeler? J. Carter?
Krejci, Yandle, Parise, etc. - guys whom won't get in but have had great careers.
Price, Rask, Fleury and Holtby will all get consideration but not sure how goalie voting works.

Imperfect list as I'm sure I'm missing guys but that's a general look at his age group - 2 or so years on either side. That's his competition plus whomever I've forgotten/mistakes.
He's somewhere in the 4th line probably (plus whichever goalies make it) so that puts him outside of the top 20 against his contemporaries.
With an average of three or so a year there's going to be some very good players waiting and filling up the queue.

Personally I would have Hedman in the top 3 groups, maybe 2.

 

[heysmilinstrange]

He's a lesser version of Keith Yandle in a way better situation. Keith Yandle has similar production playing most of his career with little support while Letang has had a murder's row of offence to feed the puck to and - y'know Gonchar on the back-end for much of his career.

He might get in if they over-value his Rings or if he has a really successful back half of his career but right now there's a lot more players in that 30-35 age bracket deserving. I doubt he'd crack the top 20 for players from even those five years and there'll be a good for of those 20 whom either won't make it in or will wait a long time.

This is bar-none one of the most crackpot statements I've ever read on this forum, which sets a pretty high bar for ludicrous statements as it is.

 

[Kuznetsnow]

Then Zubov has been very lightly insulted because Letang is above Zubov in PPG, is matching pace in point shares, has multiple Cups, All-Star game selections, and has extremely strong advanced numbers.

If you want to throw award stuff in there, Letang has better career Norris finishes, more AS appearances, and another Cup would cement his place.

One of his cups he literally didn't play the playoffs. Much of his career is moving the puck up to Crosby and Malkin, which every pmd in Pittsburgh during their tenure was successful at. He also couldn't figure out how to quarterback a PP with Crosby, Malkin and then later also Kessel effectively and has had seasons where he was absolutely brain dead defensively.

No one who watched them both would confuse Letang for Zubov any more than they would confuse Mike Green for Zubov. Zubov is about as close as you get to the defense version of Pavel Datsyuk

 

[Burke the Legend]

Shouldn't be because he is in the 5-10 range for noteworthy D-Men of his age group (which is still a huge career achievement) but HHOF should be more special. That said wouldn't bet against it because the HHOF is stupid now.

 

[edog37]

Zubov not getting in would have been ridiculous. When he was in NY and Pitt he was an offensive powerhouse but only that, a very good player but probably not a guy who's defense merited being a HoF guy. However in Dallas he became a complete player and especially after Hatcher left he developed the game to play in any situation and do it well. Zubov was unreal and as a fan of a team that gut burned by the Stars time and time again it was him and not Modano that scared me the most with the puck in the o-zone. He was just so lethal on the PP. If Zubov was a Canadian or American i'd bet he'd have been a 1st ballot HoF guy. I've never understood how anyone didn't see him as elite.

because he wasn’t elite. He was very good but not HoF worthy