Confirmed with Link: Legwand to Wings for Eaves, Jarnkrok and a cond. 3rd Part II

[Winger98]

I was reading an article somewhere that interviewed Legwands father and he was mentioning how David and the rest of the family are happy he came home. It sounded like he was trying to choose his words wisely and not put any thing out there but the impression was Davids wife and family were very happy. My guess this will make it much easier to get him re-signed knowing his family is happy.

yeah, his dad gave a similar interview during Legwand's first game. Seems playing in Detroit was a much bigger deal to the wife than to the parents. If the Wings try to re-sign him and offer anything close to fair, I would doubt it takes long to get done.

Datsyuk never gave his knee the time to properly heal. They said he was basically working out off ice every day when he was out all of January. What are you talking about surgery for when 3 of 3 doctors he's since seen have said that surgery is not necessary - only time and rest?

After they shut Datsyuk down I think there was a quote from the organization about any surgery happening in the offseason. They didn't say it was definitely necessary, but they wouldn't have mentioned it if it wasn't a possibility.

I'm betting his working out in January was on doc's orders to strengthen the knee, with the hopes that whatever's wrong with it could be compensated for. My impression is that they are grasping at straws a bit to get him healthy at this point.

 

[Henkka]

You have to think there is some plan to ship out a center this offseason. Otherwise they let Legwand go and they end up simply acquiring the exact thing they said they weren't going to get at the deadline.

Just convert guys to wing and keep those extra as a luxury. I'm pretty sure 50% or maybe more of all NHL forwards are former centers.

We have had wing-converted centers a lot before, like Kozlov, Marty Lapointe, Yzerman at 2002 playoff run, Devereaux, Jason Williams, Franzen, Filppula, Hudler, even both Zetterberg and Datsyuk have been wingers playing together. I remember first Dats was a wing (during Dave Lewis-era?), on latest years it has been only Z.

We can convert Sheahan, Glendening and Andersson there. Datsyuk-Weiss-Legwand-Helm should be the best possible 1-2-3-4.

 

[PullHard]

That's a fair question, but at the same time we have to be realistic about it. Detroit had nowhere to go but down after 09. We pretty much knew that going in because it would have been impossible to have the same team in 09-10 because of the cap. Detroit was obviously a game away from winning back to back Cups. That's crazy when you think about it. Teams that win back-to-back Cups since the Montreal and Islanders dynasties of the 70s/80s:

97-98 Detroit: pre cap powerhouse team with the extra motivation of the accident/Vladdy

91-92 Pittsburgh: prime Mario Lemieux

87-88 Oilers: prime Wayne Gretzky

In other words, it just doesn't happen without having something special (as in the greatest forwards to ever play the game or unique motivation).

So Detroit was going to fall back to Earth some; it had to happen. They weren't going to make deep runs every year, the NHL just doesn't work like that. You add in the decline and retirement of Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Stuart and it was and still is a transition/rebuilding period and we still made the playoffs every year, gave a Cup champion like Chicago a run for their money, and developed a great prospect pool without having to be a bad team. And now I feel like our forward depth (when healthy) is very strong for the next couple seasons (largely thanks to the development of the youth) and we have the potential to truly contend again.

Has Holland and company made every right move in that time frame? No, of course not. They're human and they made some absolute head scratchers (Cleary and Samuelsson in particular) and some that didn't work out as well as they hoped (Quincey, Tootoo). But at the end of the day I believe we're sitting in a good position and we did remain competitive. Isn't that pretty much all you can realistically ask for in a transition period? So now we have this window of opportunity in the next few seasons and then we'll likely go through another transition period. You hope to get lucky with health and win a Cup along the way while remaining competitive during the transition periods. Because even teams that you don't expect to make runs can in the NHL playoffs.

Yeah, I feel you. There was a season or two where we had upwards of $10M of open cap space, though, IIRC. Not that $ spent = immediate success, but I think you understand my point. Just seems weird that when we finally "buy" it is for David Legwand. I understand that timing and context mean a lot, just confuses me that after we've lost Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Stuart to retirement or free agency that we still haven't done anything to replace them. Not that I think just because the Red Wings want a top 4 D that teams are going to line up to trade them one, just that most teams seem able to fill holes relatively quickly for the most part, while Holland remains so conservative. And when he finally does make a trade, it's for another C.

 

[Bench]

I'm in agreement with this mindset. I just wish it could've been a D, but the market wasn't there for one, and we needed a C immediately. That makes more sense to me now, thanks.

No, no, no. We don't have this kind of dialogue here. Somebody has to be right and somebody has to be wrong. You guys start picking sides now and get this thread back on track, because we're in serious danger of some constructive discussion here.

 

[Henkka]

Yeah, I feel you. There was a season or two where we had upwards of $10M of open cap space, though, IIRC. Not that $ spent = immediate success, but I think you understand my point. Just seems weird that when we finally "buy" it is for David Legwand. I understand that timing and context mean a lot, just confuses me that after we've lost Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Stuart to retirement or free agency that we still haven't done anything to replace them. Not that I think just because the Red Wings want a top 4 D that teams are going to line up to trade them one, just that most teams seem able to fill holes relatively quickly for the most part, while Holland remains so conservative. And when he finally does make a trade, it's for another C.

They still were after pretty hard after Suter. They even used Ilitch's private plane to meet him personally.

 

[Bench]

They still were after pretty hard after Suter. They even used Ilitch's private plane to meet him personally.

They also went for Weber, who chose Philly instead, but Nashville matched so moot point there.

Those are the best two defenders who were even remotely available, in my opinion, to play since Lidstrom. So they tried. I know at the time people thought Holland didn't pony up enough cash to Suter, but he's been quite clear since he picked Minnesota due to geography and convincing via Parise.

Everybody else on the market would, at best, be another Kronwall. Which isn't anything to stick your nose up at, but obviously this team is going to have to be better at other positions because the likes of Lidstrom simply aren't replaced.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

They also went for Weber, who chose Philly instead, but Nashville matched so moot point there.

Those are the best two defenders who were even remotely available, in my opinion, to play since Lidstrom. So they tried. I know at the time people thought Holland didn't pony up enough cash to Suter, but he's been quite clear since he picked Minnesota due to geography and convincing via Parise.

Everybody else on the market would, at best, be another Kronwall. Which isn't anything to stick your nose up at, but obviously this team is going to have to be better at other positions because the likes of Lidstrom simply aren't replaced.

Yeah I wasn't real enamored with Carle or Wideman at the time, I actually think they have played well since. But man I would have been all over Holland for signing them at those prices and I think most people if they are being honest would have been in a similar place.

 

[Frk It]

Yeah I wasn't real enamored with Carle or Wideman at the time, I actually think they have played well since. But man I would have been all over Holland for signing them at those prices and I think most people if they are being honest would have been in a similar place.

Ehrhoff.

 

[Fugu]

They also went for Weber, who chose Philly instead, but Nashville matched so moot point there.

Those are the best two defenders who were even remotely available, in my opinion, to play since Lidstrom. So they tried. I know at the time people thought Holland didn't pony up enough cash to Suter, but he's been quite clear since he picked Minnesota due to geography and convincing via Parise.

Everybody else on the market would, at best, be another Kronwall. Which isn't anything to stick your nose up at, but obviously this team is going to have to be better at other positions because the likes of Lidstrom simply aren't replaced.

I think the Wings did have a final offer that they didn't wish to exceed, which was still shy of what Suter ended up taking. I'm not saying that they should have broken the bank, but they could have put something together that would have blown the Minnie offer out of the water. I guess they have their own internal cap. Only time will tell if that was the right step, I suppose.

 

[Heaton]

I think the Wings did have a final offer that they didn't wish to exceed, which was still shy of what Suter ended up taking. I'm not saying that they should have broken the bank, but they could have put something together that would have blown the Minnie offer out of the water. I guess they have their own internal cap. Only time will tell if that was the right step, I suppose.

And who knows how much more it would've taken to break up the Parise/Suter bromance. Suter got more cash + he got to play with his friend in his supposed choice destination. But, really, that could all be just conjecture and a good fluff piece.

 

[ap3x]

Weiss just picked up four points in 26 games this season, wheras missing more than half of the the Wings' games with injuries. Legwand already got three in his first three games.

If Weiss doesn't step up, it won't be much of a stretch to see Legwand instead of him in Detroit next season as the No. 2 center, implicating a potential trade.

 

[Winger98]

Yeah I wasn't real enamored with Carle or Wideman at the time, I actually think they have played well since. But man I would have been all over Holland for signing them at those prices and I think most people if they are being honest would have been in a similar place.

I was pushing for Wideman at the time, but I would have complained about the Carle signing from one of the forum to the other. Ehrhoff was a guy I liked, but I've never been clear on how likely it was that we'd have been able to trade for his rights. I don't think Vancouver deals them to us regardless, and I don't know if anything was going on between Buffalo and NYI before Ehrhoff's rights were moved the second time. I also disliked the career long deals. I liked the cap savings but would have been uneasy with Ehrhoff's deal on principle.

 

[PullHard]

They still were after pretty hard after Suter. They even used Ilitch's private plane to meet him personally.

I don't fault them for missing out on UFAs. I'm just saying that teams typically fill holes quicker than we seem to based on this. Rafalski has been gone for, what, almost 3 years now? Lidstrom and Stuart were more recent and at the same time, and losing all 3 in basically one calendar year is not something you can hope to help, really. Just saying that it's been a while now and we've only really added DeKeyser.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Weiss just picked up four points in 26 games this season, wheras missing more than half of the the Wings' games with injuries. Legwand already got three in his first three games.

If Weiss doesn't step up, it won't be much of a stretch to see Legwand instead of him in Detroit next season as the No. 2 center, implicating a potential trade.

At least with the new CBA you can retain some of that salary. That gives you a better shot at actually being able to trade Weiss. Buying him out is an option but that is less than ideal given his contract was signed under the current CBA.

 

[Flowah]

Weiss just picked up four points in 26 games this season, wheras missing more than half of the the Wings' games with injuries. Legwand already got three in his first three games.

If Weiss doesn't step up, it won't be much of a stretch to see Legwand instead of him in Detroit next season as the No. 2 center, implicating a potential trade.

Who would take Weiss? For the same reasons we want to replace him with Legwand, no other teams want him.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Who would take Weiss? For the same reasons we want to replace him with Legwand, no other teams want him.

We don't know that yet, in all fairness. Though it's certainly possible.

 

[SirloinUB]

That's a fair question, but at the same time we have to be realistic about it. Detroit had nowhere to go but down after 09. We pretty much knew that going in because it would have been impossible to have the same team in 09-10 because of the cap. Detroit was obviously a game away from winning back to back Cups. That's crazy when you think about it. Teams that win back-to-back Cups since the Montreal and Islanders dynasties of the 70s/80s:

97-98 Detroit: pre cap powerhouse team with the extra motivation of the accident/Vladdy

91-92 Pittsburgh: prime Mario Lemieux

87-88 Oilers: prime Wayne Gretzky

In other words, it just doesn't happen without having something special (as in the greatest forwards to ever play the game or unique motivation).

So Detroit was going to fall back to Earth some; it had to happen. They weren't going to make deep runs every year, the NHL just doesn't work like that. You add in the decline and retirement of Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Stuart and it was and still is a transition/rebuilding period and we still made the playoffs every year, gave a Cup champion like Chicago a run for their money, and developed a great prospect pool without having to be a bad team. And now I feel like our forward depth (when healthy) is very strong for the next couple seasons (largely thanks to the development of the youth) and we have the potential to truly contend again.

Has Holland and company made every right move in that time frame? No, of course not. They're human and they made some absolute head scratchers (Cleary and Samuelsson in particular) and some that didn't work out as well as they hoped (Quincey, Tootoo). But at the end of the day I believe we're sitting in a good position and we did remain competitive. Isn't that pretty much all you can realistically ask for in a transition period? So now we have this window of opportunity in the next few seasons and then we'll likely go through another transition period. You hope to get lucky with health and win a Cup along the way while remaining competitive during the transition periods. Because even teams that you don't expect to make runs can in the NHL playoffs.

Silky, I want to take the time to give some props. You had a series of fantastic posts and injected some rationality into this thread. Very well written, but more importantly very logical and exactly right. Thanks for posting!

 

[ap3x]

Who would take Weiss? For the same reasons we want to replace him with Legwand, no other teams want him.

u may have noticed why i left out that part.

 

[Heaton]

Who would take Weiss? For the same reasons we want to replace him with Legwand, no other teams want him.

They said the same thing about Scott Gomez.

 

[detredWINgs]

They said the same thing about Scott Gomez.

...who had just put up nearly 60 points.

Gomez was paid like a 1C but playing like a 2C. Weiss is paid like a 2C but playing like a 4C - if he's playing at all. Big difference.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

I think the Wings did have a final offer that they didn't wish to exceed, which was still shy of what Suter ended up taking. I'm not saying that they should have broken the bank, but they could have put something together that would have blown the Minnie offer out of the water. I guess they have their own internal cap. Only time will tell if that was the right step, I suppose.

Your point is moot. Suter never gave anyone a chance to match what Minnesota offered. Suter was never coming to Detroit.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Who would take Weiss? For the same reasons we want to replace him with Legwand, no other teams want him.

If Weiss comes back from injury and actually makes an impact, someone might want him.

Just depends on if/when he comes back and how he plays from then on.

 

[Flowah]

If Weiss comes back from injury and actually makes an impact, someone might want him.

If Weiss comes back and actually makes an impact, do we really want to trade him? He'd be one of our younger centers with Legwand/Zetterberg at 33+ and Datsyuk at 35. And if he doesn't make an impact or continues his injury woes, then again, who would want the guy?

We'd have to retain a lot of salary or pay someone to take him or just buy him out.

 

[opivy]

No, no, no. We don't have this kind of dialogue here. Somebody has to be right and somebody has to be wrong. You guys start picking sides now and get this thread back on track, because we're in serious danger of some constructive discussion here.

Said no forum ever.

 

[detredWINgs]

If Weiss comes back and actually makes an impact, do we really want to trade him? He'd be one of our younger centers with Legwand/Zetterberg at 33+ and Datsyuk at 35. And if he doesn't make an impact or continues his injury woes, then again, who would want the guy?

We'd have to retain a lot of salary or pay someone to take him or just buy him out.

There's a huge gap between the 50+ point Weiss we thought we were getting and the injury-riddled 15 point guy he's been this season and last. There's a sweet spot in there somewhere where Weiss is scoring at a 30-35 point pace and someone is looking for a veteran 3C. Then he's likely moveable with ~1.5$M retained. With that said, there has to be a reason to move Weiss. There's no point in selling him off because, as I've seen commented here, "there's no point playing a $4.9M player in your bottom 6."