Confirmed with Link: Legwand to Wings for Eaves, Jarnkrok and a cond. 3rd Part II

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I like Legwand a lot, I do. I was excited when I saw Eaves + prospect + 3rd for Legwand. I was under the impression it was a guy like Jensen or something, or even someone like Ferraro or Callahan. It made sense, we had many centers down, he's responsible in his own end, while it wasn't a defenseman, not too many top 4 defensemen were traded that day. But Jarnkrok really soured me on it. Dude's our best prospect in the organization, imo. A lot of people soured on him due to his growing pains in the first half of the season, but I keep reiterating the fact that Jurco also struggled in this first half of his first season in Grand Rapids. We lost something we're extremely weak on in this organization, and that's center depth outside of the NHL. Jarnkrok would be a clear top 6 guy in this organization, and I'm STILL livid we traded him.(Though I won't hold this against Legwand, and will gladly cheer for him, but boy will I hold this against Holland.) Hopefully he develops under Trotz...

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

And anyone who thinks Legwand is purely a rental isn't thinking of it like the front office. Ken Holland loves his veterans and he loves his center depth. Pair that with the fact that Babcock loves big, gritty players who hustle and take care of their own end. That means those two will practically go to the ends of the Earth to sign this guy.

Also keep in mind Ironlegs has winger flexibility, he really turns into a more offensive player when he slides out to the wing position. But he is one of those guys that plays both positions quite well. As a winger he is more offensive, good on the forecheck and big body net front presence still things we need. He has some flexibility to his game which is important moving forward.

I will say I remember him being a lot better on the draw than he has been in his opening couple games for us. I know he was fine against the Devils but they really are a putrid team in the face-off circle.

 

[LeighDx59]

Also keep in mind Ironlegs has winger flexibility, he really turns into a more offensive player when he slides out to the wing position. But he is one of those guys that plays both positions quite well. As a winger he is more offensive, good on the forecheck and big body net front presence still things we need. He has some flexibility to his game which is important moving forward.

I will say I remember him being a lot better on the draw than he has been in his opening couple games for us. I know he was fine against the Devils but they really are a putrid team in the face-off circle.

If Weiss can can get back to what we expect of him, next season we could just put Legwand with Zetterberg and Datsyuk on the first line. Leggy is noted for scoring dirty goals near the net, he could be that net-front presence for that line, not to mention he has the talent to be worthy enough to play with them.

 

[Vatican Roulette]

If Weiss can can get back to what we expect of him, next season we could just put Legwand with Zetterberg and Datsyuk on the first line. Leggy is noted for scoring dirty goals near the net, he could be that net-front presence for that line, not to mention he has the talent to be worthy enough to play with them.

That's not a bad idea. Slot Legwand as the center and Datsyuk and Zetterberg on his wings. Legwand cover's the defensive side of the game so that it leaves Datsyuk and Zetterberg less heavy lifting on the defensive game. Might save on injuries.

Only problem is the plethora of wingers on the team. Maybe Franzen moves to center. Lot's of options.

 

[Drake88]

I may have missed this, but what's the official deal with Jarnkrok? We heard about how he was going to be the next Zetterberg and some even went as far as saying he would be in the NHL this year. i personally was excited to see his development and hopefully see him in the red wings jersey someday. The fact that he was added in this deal just turned me off on the whole deal even though I like legwand and understand why we acquired him. So what happened with jarnkrok that caused him to be expendable for a second line center?

-we're the Sweden rumors serious?
-heard he wanted a guaranteed roster spot next year? Could the wings not assure him that?
-did he just not live up to expectations?
-excess of offensive prospects make him expendable?

 

[bababooeyII]

What does it matter if he tried to force the Wings hand? So what if we went back to Sweden why should he languish in Grand Rapids if he can make more in Sweden? Look at it from his perspective, Jarnkrok has an offer to play in Sweden, he sees how the parent club favors veterans over prospects, he sees how they treated guys like Tatar and Nyquist vs Bertuzzi and Cleary. He sees he is far don the pecking order and even if he leads Grand Rapids in scoring he is probably a 4th line player in Detroit and can't even play over guys like Andersson. What would you do if you saw that your future as at least another year in Grand Rapids and when you do graduate will probably be playing limited minutes on the 4th line? I see nothing wrong with what he did, he thinks he can play and saw that his options are limited to play in an organization that favors hierarchy instead of merit. If he was given a chance to compete fairly, or saw that he had a legitimate shot at playing for the Wings I'm sure he would stay in North America.

 

[Flowah]

-we're the Sweden rumors serious?
-heard he wanted a guaranteed roster spot next year? Could the wings not assure him that?
-did he just not live up to expectations?
-excess of offensive prospects make him expendable?

1. Sweden has never been anything more than rumors and "pure speculation" even by the people who keep repeating it. There have been rumors and whispers in the Swedish papers, but actual words out of the people involved are that those rumors are baseless. That's from Jarnkrok, his agent, the Wing's assistant GM who claimed to have never heard of that kind of stuff. Of course people can say that it only makes sense for Jarnkrok and the Wings to deny it, otherwise it makes them look like jackasses, but that seems like very specious reasoning when there's no evidence to suggest those were anything other than rumors. It's like if someone started a rumor that you beat your wife and you denied it adamantly. "Well of course he'd say that! What kind of stupid wife beater would admit to it!"

2. Haven't heard a word about demanding a guaranteed spot. Holland only went so far as to say that Jarnkrok and his agent were "antsy" but denied that he had demanded a trade or anything of that sort. One can see though, how even if we let all our UFA's go and just signed our RFA's, that there would be very little room for Jarnkrok next season. Even if we made a couple of trades there probably wouldn't be room. Maybe Jarnkrok put 2 and 2 together with how packed the roster was and put pressure on the Wings. We don't know. All we have from Holland is that he was antsy.

3. According to Holland, after the trade was made, he was not living up. But throughout the year the words out of Grand Rapids from the coach and their staff was that he was great, doing everything right, and that lately the points were beginning to reflect that. I believe he's PPG+ over the last 20 games? Is that right?

4. Again, that's according to Holland. He said that the emergence of Sheahan and Andersson/Glendening moved him down the depth chart and made him more expendable because they saw Jarnkrok as nothing more than a 3/4C. Now, I've watched Andersson for 2 years and Glendening for this year and if that's true, then Jarnkrok was a bust and I have no idea why Blashill was praising him so much.

I think that accurately describes the situation and is fair to everyone. Make of it what you will.

 

[SoupGuru]

3. According to Holland, after the trade was made, he was not living up. But throughout the year the words out of Grand Rapids from the coach and their staff was that he was great, doing everything right, and that lately the points were beginning to reflect that. I believe he's PPG+ over the last 20 games? Is that right?

Let me guess, you'd want Holland to question the quality of a prospect before a trade.

Every single prospect we have is going to get talked up by the organization. Is this really news to people?

I'm not going to take Mr. Salesman's word for how awesome that Ford Pinto is. Why should you?

 

[PullHard]

Let me guess, you'd want Holland to question the quality of a prospect before a trade.

Every single prospect we have is going to get talked up by the organization. Is this really news to people?

I'm not going to take Mr. Salesman's word for how awesome that Ford Pinto is. Why should you?

You would never expect a person within the organization to badmouth a prospect, but people seemed to have glowing reviews, like the oft cited Jiri Fischer report on him.

Also, if you're drafting a guy in the 2nd round, he isn't likely a Ford Pinto, is he? I get your argument, but that isn't a very apt assessment. If Jarnkrok really wasn't hacking it, you think everyone would've just said "he has a ways to go, but we like what we see." not "he seems to be one of our most talented prospects."

 

[Claypool]

It seems Jarnkrok wasn't going to wait another year or two playing in the AHL for a shot on the Red Wings. If he wasn't traded now he would have been traded eventually anyway.

 

[PullHard]

It seems Jarnkrok wasn't going to wait another year or two playing in the AHL for a shot on the Red Wings. If he wasn't traded now he would have been traded eventually anyway.

That seems to be the thing I am settling on as well. Frustrating, but understandable. I can see why not every single prospect would want to spend their first ~4 post-draft eligible years riding the bus if they could likely be contributing somewhere else. Not every guy we draft is going to okay with that.

 

[Flowah]

Let me guess, you'd want Holland to question the quality of a prospect before a trade.

Every single prospect we have is going to get talked up by the organization. Is this really news to people?

I'm not going to take Mr. Salesman's word for how awesome that Ford Pinto is. Why should you?

Are you serious?

We hear bad things about prospects all the time. We hear about parts of the game they need to work on, we know the buzzwords. "Raw" is a common one. Very rarely have prospects been talked up as much as Jarnkrok has by this organization. Moreover, the way he's been ranked by the organization and other observers as compared to the rest of our prospects.

Your "point" here is completely baseless.

We've all seen prospects that are described as a "work in progress." No one says "this guy is a bust, he sucks." But we definitely hear concerns, and we definitely see things that indicate those concerns. We saw Frk moved down for a while. We've seen the same pattern with other prospects.

None of that was seen here.

Your "rationale" also bites the other way. Why would Ken Holland ever admit that he gave away a fantastic top6 center prospect who was the best in our system at that position? He's trying to sell us the fact that he's not incompetent. Why are you trusting that? Huehuehue. You think Holland would just admit to making a mistake like that?

 

[Bench]

There's a lot of reading into a handful of quotes here. The organization obviously valued Jarnkrok, but thought he was expendable. Holland has proven time and time again he won't trade prospects that he covets. Jarnkrok may have been respected, but my guess is they have bigger plans for Sheahan moving forward and feel their center depth is solidified for at least 5 years.

If the Wings truly believed Jarnkrok was a homerun top 6 center and their best prospect, they wouldn't have moved him for David Legwand. I think we can all agree about that. The question is whether the Wings are wrong in that assessment. Maybe, maybe not. We'll find out in a few years.

 

[Flowah]

I do not agree with that.

I think Holland panicked when he saw his top 4 centers injured and his playoff streak in jeopardy. I think he pulled a desperation trade to try and get a stopgap center to make the playoffs. Legwand is a good established center with a couple good years left. It's going to cost. Holland could not meet the apparently insane demands for Kesler so he bet on Legwand instead.

He did this for the streak.

Who do they think is going to be their 1C in 5 years? 38 year old, chronic back problems Zetterberg? 40 year old, likely retired and in Russia Datsyuk? 35 year old, is he even a 1C Weiss? 38 year old Legwand? Sheahan? I like Sheahan a lot but a legit 1C? Seems like a long shot. Not Helm, not Anderson, not Glendening.

Our center depth is great for 3 years tops and then just plummets.

 

[Bench]

I do not agree with that.

I think Holland panicked when he saw his top 4 centers injured and his playoff streak in jeopardy. I think he pulled a desperation trade to try and get a stopgap center to make the playoffs. Legwand is a good established center with a couple good years left. It's going to cost. Holland could not meet the apparently insane demands for Kesler so he bet on Legwand instead.

He did this for the streak.

That's making some pretty big assumptions, though.

Legwand is a classic Red Wings move. Textbook. He's exactly the type of guy you'd expect them to trade for. Veteran. From the area. Character player. Two-way game. I don't think it looks desperate at all... I think it looks par the course.

But making the playoffs, and getting D and Z back for them, is obviously the goal. That's the goal every season. Holland didn't flinch last season and trade any prospects when the streak was in jeopardy, I'm not sure why people assume he's so hung up on that. The media certainly is, but hey, that's media for you. Those storylines are made for people that don't participate in message boards daily.

 

[Frk It]

That seems to be the thing I am settling on as well. Frustrating, but understandable. I can see why not every single prospect would want to spend their first ~4 post-draft eligible years riding the bus if they could likely be contributing somewhere else. Not every guy we draft is going to okay with that.

Fact.
And people have denied for a long time that developing our prospects this way would mean we could lose prospects, or rub prospects the wrong way.

Makes me wonder about what our reputation is among young guys being drafted, and those currently in the system. Have a feeling Jarnkrok might not be the only one.

 

[Bench]

Fact.
And people have denied for a long time that developing our prospects this way would mean we could lose prospect, or rub prospects the wrong way.

Makes me think of what our reputation is among people being drafted and young guys currently in the system. Have a feeling Jarnkrok might not be the only one.

I get that, but on the flip side, if you end up in the Wings club, look at how good you have it. People complain the veterans stick around too long and get overpaid... well, that's going to work out pretty sweet for a guy like Nyquist, right?

Once you're good with this organization, they'll take care of you. Maybe to a fault. But if I were a player, I'd bust my ass to stay with a team that will show some loyalty and help me get a job when my playing career is over. Look how many Wings get folded into the organization when they hang up the skates.

 

[Frk It]

I get that, but on the flip side, if you end up in the Wings club, look at how good you have it. People complain the veterans stick around too long and get overpaid... well, that's going to work out pretty sweet for a guy like Nyquist, right?

Once you're good with this organization, they'll take care of you. Maybe to a fault. But if I were a player, I'd bust my ass to stay with a team that will show some loyalty and help me get a job when my playing career is over. Look how many Wings get folded into the organization when they hang up the skates.

I got that too.

But if you're a 20-21 year old kid what are you concerned about.

How good the red wings are going to treat you when you are broken down and 35?

Or when you can make it to the big stage, and start getting paid a big boys salary?

I get your point, I just doubt the kids would look at it from that perspective.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I do not agree with that.

I think Holland panicked when he saw his top 4 centers injured and his playoff streak in jeopardy. I think he pulled a desperation trade to try and get a stopgap center to make the playoffs. Legwand is a good established center with a couple good years left. It's going to cost. Holland could not meet the apparently insane demands for Kesler so he bet on Legwand instead.

He did this for the streak.

Who do they think is going to be their 1C in 5 years? 38 year old, chronic back problems Zetterberg? 40 year old, likely retired and in Russia Datsyuk? 35 year old, is he even a 1C Weiss? 38 year old Legwand? Sheahan? I like Sheahan a lot but a legit 1C? Seems like a long shot. Not Helm, not Anderson, not Glendening.

Our center depth is great for 3 years tops and then just plummets.

I'm with you here. Terrible asset management by Holland. Jeoparizing the possible long term success of the club for the playoff streak. We really need to draft a center in this draft. Jared McCann man, Jared McCann.

 

[Bench]

I got that too.

But if you're a 20-21 year old kid what are you concerned about.

How good the red wings are going to treat you when you are broken down and 35?

Or when you can make it to the big stage, and start getting paid a big boys salary?

I get your point, I just doubt the kids would look at it from that perspective.

That's fair. And I don't think you're wrong. I have to remember how much more impulsive I was at 20 than I am at 30.

If a guy sticks it out with the Wings, though, it's a pretty good deal. More work up front but a payoff on the back end. Particularly if you're a "character" player. This may sour some fans, but for me, I enjoy the culture of respectable guys the Wings have kept in the fold and I think it does make it an appealing destination for guys like Alfredsson and Legwand. Not the sexiest names at their age, but it mattered to them.

 

[Bench]

I'm with you here. Terrible asset management by Holland. Jeoparizing the possible long term success of the club for the playoff streak. We really need to draft a center in this draft. Jared McCann man, Jared McCann.

Jarnkrok is the only prospect of any significance he's traded in a decade, am I wrong? Even then, he's not even the top prospect.

Holland has many faults, but trading prospects isn't one of them. If anything, he holds too many until they hit waivers or leave for nothing to the European leagues or KHL.

 

[ricky0034]

That seems to be the thing I am settling on as well. Frustrating, but understandable. I can see why not every single prospect would want to spend their first ~4 post-draft eligible years riding the bus if they could likely be contributing somewhere else. Not every guy we draft is going to okay with that.

as far as i'm concerned if a guy like Jarnkrok isn't happy you don't just trade him away for what you can get you do what you can to fix it

you play him if you can

if it comes down to it and he does go to Sweden or whatever? keep his rights,he would have come crawling back in a couple of years

 

[Flowah]

That's making some pretty big assumptions, though.

Legwand is a classic Red Wings move. Textbook. He's exactly the type of guy you'd expect them to trade for. Veteran. From the area. Character player. Two-way game. I don't think it looks desperate at all... I think it looks par the course.

But making the playoffs, and getting D and Z back for them, is obviously the goal. That's the goal every season. Holland didn't flinch last season and trade any prospects when the streak was in jeopardy, I'm not sure why people assume he's so hung up on that. The media certainly is, but hey, that's media for you. Those storylines are made for people that don't participate in message boards daily.

I think we have more than enough centers without Legwand. He is very obviously a move done *only* because of injuries. I think he doesn't make much sense for next year if we intend to keep him as Holland had claimed.

Last year, did we have both Z and D out for the home stretch? I can't remember but my recollection is that they were not. I would feel much less comfortable if they were both out, and I'm sure Holland does too. Like if we had Lidstrom right now, there would be zero panic. Nothing but confidence that the playoffs were guaranteed.

You justified it by saying they see their center depth as secure for "at least the next 5 years." I don't see how that's possible. Actually I'd like you to show me. I see our top centers either retired or pushing 40 with the exception of Sheahan. I don't see any other good top6 center prospects in our system. If we have some, let me know so I can stop worrying.

We don't have that and we don't have Z or D. So yes, Holland got scared, pulled the trigger to save part of his legacy.

 

[Claypool]

I do not agree with that.

I think Holland panicked when he saw his top 4 centers injured and his playoff streak in jeopardy. I think he pulled a desperation trade to try and get a stopgap center to make the playoffs. Legwand is a good established center with a couple good years left. It's going to cost. Holland could not meet the apparently insane demands for Kesler so he bet on Legwand instead.

He did this for the streak.

Who do they think is going to be their 1C in 5 years? 38 year old, chronic back problems Zetterberg? 40 year old, likely retired and in Russia Datsyuk? 35 year old, is he even a 1C Weiss? 38 year old Legwand? Sheahan? I like Sheahan a lot but a legit 1C? Seems like a long shot. Not Helm, not Anderson, not Glendening.

Our center depth is great for 3 years tops and then just plummets.

Yes, Holland mortgaged some of the future for possible short term success. Packing it in and not trying to make the playoffs isn't in this organization's DNA, at least not right now. If the plan is to have Datsyuk and Zetterberg back in late April/early May and you think this team has a shot of sneaking into the playoffs, you have to take the chance. What if they sneak in and go all the way?

I'm not thrilled with trading Jarnkrok, not because I think he'll be in impact player later in his career but because I was interested to see how he was going to develop with the Red Wings.

As for the future of the center position, if they can't manage to draft an elite one soon, the coaching system will likely change and rely on less pretty plays and puck possession and more dump and chase, grinding style.

 

[MTU hockey]

Who do they think is going to be their 1C in 5 years? 38 year old, chronic back problems Zetterberg? 40 year old, likely retired and in Russia Datsyuk? 35 year old, is he even a 1C Weiss? 38 year old Legwand? Sheahan? I like Sheahan a lot but a legit 1C? Seems like a long shot. Not Helm, not Anderson, not Glendening.

Our center depth is great for 3 years tops and then just plummets.

Would the people that are defending Hollands decision to deal Jarnkrok answer or at least address what I just quoted. Everyone keeps mentioning how Jarnkrok was buried under all these centers in Detroit.

But from my perspective all of our top 6 centers in 4 years minus Weiss (and that's only if he regains his form) will be well over the age of 35, aka in decline offensively. Jarnkrok will be 26 and entering his prime by that time. And for all the people saying that Jarnkrok was in competition with Glendening and Andersson, I find that laughable. While Jarnkrok lacks grit I still think he would be an upgrade to Andersson & Glendening right now because he has fewer flaws in his game.

I just don't understand why Holland would trade one of the organizations best two top 6 center prospects for a 33 year old. There is going to be a massive hole in the center ice position in the next 4ish years unless the Wings can draft a top 6 center and develop them quickly or one of our current prospects converts to center and really takes off.