LeBron legacy if he wins title with Lakers

[alko]

Just curious: What must LeBron do, that most of you would consider him better as MJ?

 

[FiveTacos]

Kobe had a very flashy game and was extremely influential to a lot of the stars today and how the game is played today in that a lot of guys molded their game after Kobe's. But he often gets very overrated. A lot of people like to remember Kobe and Shaq on equal footing, but Shaq took the 3 MVPs. He always outscored Kobe in the playoffs, which is Kobe's defining trait. And Kobe did not affect the game in any form as much as Shaq did on the boards and as a rim protector. He was much closer to equal footing in the 2nd and 3rd, and was a better man defender than Shaq by the time that Detroit came around and a little bit before that. But he didn't have the impact on the game that O'Neal did, namely in the first title when they were remarkably different players. Shaq was by far the most dominant player those playoffs, and Kobe was 9th in scoring, 11th in points per 36, and led the playoffs in field goals missed.

Shaq was developing a rep as the biggest choke artist in the league by 2000. And the Lakers in the WCF were about to blow a 3-1 lead, which would have cemented him as a playoff choker. And what did he do in games 6 and 7? 17 and 18 points. When the Lakers were down by double digits and made the big comeback in game 7, Shaq did practically nothing. It was Kobe with a huge performance, going for 25-11-7 plus 4 blocks, and 4 points plus the lob to Shaq on 3 straight possessions in crunchtime to save Shaq's bacon. Everyone knows that was the real Finals, the fact that Shaq was better against an overmatched Pacers team and won Finals MVP is fine and all ... but Kobe would've gotten it if it'd been for the WCF, which was where the championship was truly won.

The next year it was Kobe who destroyed the Spurs in the WCF, averaging 33-7-7. Again, if the playoff MVP had been given out for the "real" Finals (which everyone knew that was), Kobe wins again. He killed the Spurs so bad, they knew they had to go get someone like Bowen to have any chance.

Shaq definitely earned his stripes in '02 against the Kings with Kobe clearly weakened by the food poisoning, but let's not pretend that Shaq was carrying Kobe to all those championships. The only reason Shaq wasn't a huge playoff goat (not GOAT) and instead was a 1st time champion was because of Kobe.

Shaq was a dominant player, but he was not a bigtime playoff performer in crunchtime. There's a reason why Phil wanted Kobe to have the ball down the stretch of close playoff games, and there's a reason why the Lakers won a lot of those games. That's not to discount that the reason the Lakers were in position to do so was in large part due to Shaq, but with just an okay SG it's very possible Shaq only ever has 1 ring playing with Wade.

 

[Terry Yake]

I was comparing Iverson with the 76ers to Kobe with the non-Shaq Lakers. He didn't involve other players nearly as much as he could have. You're making an entirely different point. Also, those players prove that it wasn't "harder" for guards to score and easier for bigs. Quite the opposite, guards dominated the scoring and bigs did not.



Kobe without 5 titles isn't in the conversation for #6 all time. And the main reason he has 5 titles is largely due to Shaq's dominance. I'm not saying Kobe was riding coattails or merely along for the ride. He was a very good player to start and only got better, but he was clearly less impactful than Shaq in games. That much is blatantly obvious.



The numbers in the playoffs are pretty plain. Watching the games are pretty plain. Shaq at the time, even including the 04 Finals where Shaq played himself into "shape" was the better player. Even when "mailing it in." Which, you'll note that I didn't argue about Shaq's effort but his weight.



From 2002-04, Kobe shot 42.5% from the field in the playoffs. He was a volume scorer, not comparable with D-Wade who shot 46%, 46%, and 50% in years his team won the title. And 48.5% and 50% in the other two years he made the Finals. And those 2 years he won with LeBron, LeBron averaged almost 27 points a game and over 30 points a game. So it is possible to play with a dominant scorer and be a big scorer who is also efficient.



Bullshit. Why did Iverson pass to Aaron McKie and George Lynch? Why would D Wade pass to an ancient Gary Payton and Antoine Walker, both of whom would be out of the league shortly thereafter? Why would LeBron pass to Matthew Dellavedova and Timofey Mozgov? To try and get somewhere. And they did. Kobe in the 3 years between Shaq and Pau won 4 playoff games and 0 playoff series. The team wasn't good, again there is no arguing that. But trying to outscore teams by himself was doomed to fail from the start. Hero ball is a terrible plan for success.

again, lol @ arguing that kobe should've put aside his strength (scoring) in order to get the ball to the likes of kwame brown and chris mihm. that's just laughable

kobe has 5 titles and he was a key contributor in each one. stop with the typical "kobe rode shaq's coattails" bullshit. he missed game 3 of the 2000 finals and the lakers lost. shaq fouled out in game 4 and it was kobe who took over and won them that game to go up 3-1 in the series. 01 WCF against the spurs, kobe put up 33 ppg on 51% shooting in the series. 02 WCF, he hits three 3s in the last few minutes and makes the GW shot to win game 4. but yeah, shaq carried those teams on his back right?

huh? iverson's assist numbers during the early 00s are nearly identical to kobe's, if not lower. and look at where AI passing more got the sixers in the mid 2000s. at least kobe carried the lakers into the playoffs, even if they didn't advance

 

[Voight]

Just curious: What must LeBron do, that most of you would consider him better as MJ?

Thats always been a tough question.

For me, one of the more impressive Jordan accomplishments was 1988 when he managed to win MVP + DPOY + lead the league in scoring. Averaged 40 minutes a game, career high 3.2 SPG and then 35 PPG 92nd highest of his career).

 

[FiveTacos]

Thats always been a tough question.

For me, one of the more impressive Jordan accomplishments was 1988 when he managed to win MVP + DPOY + lead the league in scoring. Averaged 40 minutes a game, career high 3.2 SPG and then 35 PPG 92nd highest of his career).

To me he'd need to continue to increase his total career value by not dropping off significantly for quite a while longer. Even Kareem wasn't at near MVP level in his late 30's, albeit he was still excellent until his last season. His argument is going to have to be sustained peak, because peak peak it's impossible for him to beat MJ.

 

[NMF78]

Just curious: What must LeBron do, that most of you would consider him better as MJ?

Jordan had a better peak and a higher average level in his prime years.

I don't see how Lebron can better that even if he continues adding lesser prime years to his resumee and contunies to accumulate stats.

 

[Perennial]

Shaq was developing a rep as the biggest choke artist in the league by 2000. And the Lakers in the WCF were about to blow a 3-1 lead, which would have cemented him as a playoff choker. And what did he do in games 6 and 7? 17 and 18 points. When the Lakers were down by double digits and made the big comeback in game 7, Shaq did practically nothing. It was Kobe with a huge performance, going for 25-11-7 plus 4 blocks, and 4 points plus the lob to Shaq on 3 straight possessions in crunchtime to save Shaq's bacon. Everyone knows that was the real Finals, the fact that Shaq was better against an overmatched Pacers team and won Finals MVP is fine and all ... but Kobe would've gotten it if it'd been for the WCF, which was where the championship was truly won.

The next year it was Kobe who destroyed the Spurs in the WCF, averaging 33-7-7. Again, if the playoff MVP had been given out for the "real" Finals (which everyone knew that was), Kobe wins again. He killed the Spurs so bad, they knew they had to go get someone like Bowen to have any chance.

Shaq definitely earned his stripes in '02 against the Kings with Kobe clearly weakened by the food poisoning, but let's not pretend that Shaq was carrying Kobe to all those championships. The only reason Shaq wasn't a huge playoff goat (not GOAT) and instead was a 1st time champion was because of Kobe.

Shaq was a dominant player, but he was not a bigtime playoff performer in crunchtime. There's a reason why Phil wanted Kobe to have the ball down the stretch of close playoff games, and there's a reason why the Lakers won a lot of those games. That's not to discount that the reason the Lakers were in position to do so was in large part due to Shaq, but with just an okay SG it's very possible Shaq only ever has 1 ring playing with Wade.

Some of Kobe's shooting results in that 2000 series against Portland...

Game 2
2 for 9

Game 4
5 for 15

Game 5
4 for 13

 

[FiveTacos]

Some of Kobe's shooting results in that 2000 series against Portland...

Game 2
2 for 9

Game 4
5 for 15

Game 5
4 for 13

In the other 4 games he shot a combined 51.4%. Had a game winning assist AND block (on Sabonis!). Hell he averaged more blocks in the series than Shaq did.

And of course, when the season was circling the drain, he came up with two big games while Shaq was going quiet like PG/Kawhi this year. But sure, let's give Shaq credit for the series win. No one who watched that series would agree, however.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

kobe is definitely top 10

MJ
Lebron
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Wilt
Oscar

that's my list

He's not even close to top 10. Talented player, but ultimately a lesser one than his talent level would suggest.

 

[Terry Yake]

He's not even close to top 10. Talented player, but ultimately a lesser one than his talent level would suggest.

who would you suggest be top 10 instead?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

kobe was a shooting guard. his job was to score, and he did it better than pretty much anyone else during his prime

shaq was the more dominant of the two because he was a big man, and back then, the game was much more big man oriented compared to now where its all about shooting 3s. it was much harder for a guard to score , especially pre-hand checking rule, yet kobe was still one of the league leaders in scoring. shaq's prime came during the 3peat years, whereas kobe's prime began around '02. still, there is no 3peat without kobe. that's for sure. 03-04 was the only time he really struggled in the playoffs, but even then, he's the only reason they weren't swept because of his GW shot in game 2 of the finals

you can criticize kobe all you want for not getting his teammates more involved during those 05-06 and 06-07 seasons, but he singlehandedly got those teams into the playoffs. look at who he was playing with, and you'll see why he was pretty much forced to be the entire team

No, Kobe was the reason they were almost swept. When in 4 of the 5 games you shoot 33% on 20+shots with almost as many turnovers as assists, you are singlehandedly losing the game for your team.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

who would you suggest be top 10 instead?

At their best there are a number of better players: Hakeem, Garnett, Durant, Wade, Nash, Barkley, Paul. Kobe did have great longevity, but he simply took too many bad shots.

 

[Terry Yake]

No, Kobe was the reason they were almost swept. When in 4 of the 5 games you shoot 33% on 20+shots with almost as many turnovers as assists, you are singlehandedly losing the game for your team.

kobe wasn't the reason they were swept, but his play didn't help

they were swept because the pistons were a historically good defensive team

 

[Terry Yake]

At their best there are a number of better players: Hakeem, Garnett, Durant, Wade, Nash, Barkley, Paul. Kobe did have great longevity, but he simply took too many bad shots.

durant and hakeem are the only ones who you could make an argument for being top 10. but over kobe? no way. maybe durant when it's all said and done but not now

the other guys you listed aren't top 10 material by any means

 

[bambamcam4ever]

durant and hakeem are the only ones who you could make an argument for being top 10. but over kobe? no way. maybe durant when it's all said and done but not now

the other guys you listed aren't top 10 material by any means

I agree many of those aren't, Kobe isn't either. I know Lakers fans love the guy, but he's one of the most overrated NBA players ever. Are there any other top players with a FG% as low as his?

 

[Terry Yake]

I agree many of those aren't, Kobe isn't either. I know Lakers fans love the guy, but he's one of the most overrated NBA players ever. Are there any other top players with a FG% as low as his?

well you keep comparing him to AI, and his FG% is even lower

i don't see any way he doesn't belong on top 10 lists

 

[Perennial]

well you keep comparing him to AI, and his FG% is even lower

i don't see any way he doesn't belong on top 10 lists

Then you're not looking very hard...

I shared a video with you that clearly outlined Kobe's flaws as a player (post #218)

Did you watch it?

 

[Terry Yake]

Then you're not looking very hard...

I shared a video with you that clearly outlined Kobe's flaws as a player (post #218)

Did you watch it?

let me guess, he rode shaq's coattails for his first 3 titles and doesn't rank very high in a few advanced stat categories

i'm almost certain that's what the video will say. give me a list of players you think deserve to be top 10 over kobe

 

[bambamcam4ever]

well you keep comparing him to AI, and his FG% is even lower

i don't see any way he doesn't belong on top 10 lists

I think you're confusing me with someone else. Kobe is certainly better than Iverson.

 

[Perennial]

let me guess, he rode shaq's coattails for his first 3 titles and doesn't rank very high in a few advanced stat categories

i'm almost certain that's what the video will say. give me a list of players you think deserve to be top 10 over kobe

No need to guess... just watch the video and know for sure

 

[Terry Yake]

I think you're confusing me with someone else. Kobe is certainly better than Iverson.

yeah it was the other guy

but still, pointing out kobe's FG% as a reason to keep him off a top 10 list is laughable. the only other SG i'd put on kobe's level is wade and kobe's still ahead of him for sure

 

[sfvega]

again, lol @ arguing that kobe should've put aside his strength (scoring) in order to get the ball to the likes of kwame brown and chris mihm. that's just laughable

kobe has 5 titles and he was a key contributor in each one. stop with the typical "kobe rode shaq's coattails" bullshit. he missed game 3 of the 2000 finals and the lakers lost. shaq fouled out in game 4 and it was kobe who took over and won them that game to go up 3-1 in the series. 01 WCF against the spurs, kobe put up 33 ppg on 51% shooting in the series. 02 WCF, he hits three 3s in the last few minutes and makes the GW shot to win game 4. but yeah, shaq carried those teams on his back right?

huh? iverson's assist numbers during the early 00s are nearly identical to kobe's, if not lower. and look at where AI passing more got the sixers in the mid 2000s. at least kobe carried the lakers into the playoffs, even if they didn't advance

You're intentionally misrepresenting my arguments to be an even bigger Kobe stan. It's unbearable. I LITERALLY in my last post just said "I'm not saying Kobe rode coattails" and you make the exact opposite accusation. Cool, reading rocks.

I never said Iverson was a better player either. I said that he involved his teammates more, even when his team was bad. Kobe, did not. He's probably the most notorious ball hog of the last 30 years. And you're saying this was a strength? Ok. I'm not saying Kobe should have tried to become Steve Nash, but he SHOULD have known that he's not going to outscore teams by himself. I gave you examples of all time greats involving very flawed players to actually get those bad teams somewhere and they did, so it's not really a laughable idea. The laughable idea is to think that Kobe is gonna take 3 out of every 5 shots up the floor and win in the playoffs.

Kobe vs. Shaq as Lakers isn't an argument. Shaq was the best positional player in the NBA. He was the most dominant player of the time, the most unguardable. The leading scorer every year. Leading rebounder every year. Leading blocker. Finals MVP every year. What argument is there for Kobe??

 

[Terry Yake]

You're intentionally misrepresenting my arguments to be an even bigger Kobe stan. It's unbearable. I LITERALLY in my last post just said "I'm not saying Kobe rode coattails" and you make the exact opposite accusation. Cool, reading rocks.

I never said Iverson was a better player either. I said that he involved his teammates more, even when his team was bad. Kobe, did not. He's probably the most notorious ball hog of the last 30 years. And you're saying this was a strength? Ok. I'm not saying Kobe should have tried to become Steve Nash, but he SHOULD have known that he's not going to outscore teams by himself. I gave you examples of all time greats involving very flawed players to actually get those bad teams somewhere and they did, so it's not really a laughable idea. The laughable idea is to think that Kobe is gonna take 3 out of every 5 shots up the floor and win in the playoffs.

Kobe vs. Shaq as Lakers isn't an argument. Shaq was the best positional player in the NBA. He was the most dominant player of the time, the most unguardable. The leading scorer every year. Leading rebounder every year. Leading blocker. Finals MVP every year. What argument is there for Kobe??

again, why the f*ck would kobe put aside his biggest strength (scoring,) in order to become more of a facilitator and get the ball to guys like chris mihm and kwame brown? you really don't see how ridiculous that sounds? kobe was literally outscoring teams by himself during those years, and its a wonder those lakers teams even made the playoffs anyways with how bad they were outside of kobe and odom. they even came within a game of beating the suns in 06 who were title contenders.

huh? which teams had all time greats playing with scrubs and actually got anywhere? aside from some of those lebron-led cavs teams. the mid 2000s sixers were awful. the post-shaq heat never made it out of round 1 until lebron and bosh came. so tell me, which of these teams with all time greats and flawed players actually got somewhere? i'll give you a minute

who's comparing kobe to shaq? no one's denying shaq's dominance during those years. funny how you say you're not arguing that kobe rode coattails but then you pretty much do just that. there have been many examples posted here of why the lakers would not have won 3 straight titles without kobe

 

[sfvega]

again, why the f*ck would kobe put aside his biggest strength (scoring,) in order to become more of a facilitator and get the ball to guys like chris mihm and kwame brown? you really don't see how ridiculous that sounds? kobe was literally outscoring teams by himself during those years, and its a wonder those lakers teams even made the playoffs anyways with how bad they were outside of kobe and odom. they even came within a game of beating the suns in 06 who were title contenders.

huh? which teams had all time greats playing with scrubs and actually got anywhere? aside from some of those lebron-led cavs teams. the mid 2000s sixers were awful. the post-shaq heat never made it out of round 1 until lebron and bosh came. so tell me, which of these teams with all time greats and flawed players actually got somewhere? i'll give you a minute

who's comparing kobe to shaq? no one's denying shaq's dominance during those years. funny how you say you're not arguing that kobe rode coattails but then you pretty much do just that. there have been many examples posted here of why the lakers would not have won 3 straight titles without kobe

All I've said on Kobe/Shaq is that Shaq was more important to those teams and Kobe would not have those rings without Shaq. He was the more dominant player, probably the most dominant of the past 23 years in that run. It's not even worth debating that.

I've given you 3 examples, bud. Great players who have won playoff series with very flawed supporting casts. Kobe lost to a team that never made the Finals and was the start of D'Antoni ball, which everyone in Phoenix and Houston will tell you has also never been championship basketball. The book is out on how flawed his teams have been, and their weakness was also defense so....

I never asked Kobe to not score. I pointed out how he didn't develop as a facilitator, which is a fair criticism. And like a Kobe stan, your counterpoint is that criticism doesn't exist. Lalala, I can't hear you. Kobe is the best! Great argument. I've given you awards, stats, comparables. What has your argument been? Well you can't blame Kobe for this, and you can't blame him for that. Great points....

 

[Perennial]

yeah it was the other guy

but still, pointing out kobe's FG% as a reason to keep him off a top 10 list is laughable. the only other SG i'd put on kobe's level is wade and kobe's still ahead of him for sure

The stats would indicate that both Wade and McGrady peaked higher than Kobe...