LeBron legacy if he wins title with Lakers

[sfvega]

haha, i'm the troll? every time you make a bullshit argument and i come at you with facts, you quickly go into meltdown mode. DUDE YOU'RE SUCH A F*CKING TROLL OMG!!!

What facts? All you do is spout BS and back it up with.....with.....hmmm, I'll let you know what you back it up with whenever you actually start.

the 2001 sixers weren't a high scoring team because of george lynch or raja bell or whoever else was on that team. they were a high scoring team because of AI. why is this so hard to grasp? they made the finals because of AI's SCORING. not his passing. again, why is this so hard to grasp?

The Sixers weren't a high-scoring team. They were ranked 15th out of 29 team, bottom half of the league. So, wrong again. Par for the course. But again, the point is that the supporting cast was weak, AI WAS an elite scorer and he facilitated in the regular season and in the playoffs. So there is a precedent for an elite scorer playing on an offense with very questionable options around him to still include them and get somewhere. It's not this stupid idea that you make it out to be.

when AI's assist totals went up in the mid 2000s, the team didn't even make the playoffs. when wade's assist totals went up without shaq, his teams never made it out of the first round. so yes, your argument is bullshit as i've said multiple times already.

Again, everything is an absolute. Iverson averaged 6 assists a game for his CAREER in addition to that postseason. He had high assists as a rookie. He was a very, very good passer as a pro and was a willing facilitator. It's not a case of a guy putting up garbage stats on bad teams.

AI AVERAGED assist numbers that were basically Kobe's career highs.

neither AI or wade made their teams better by increasing their assist totals. the stats and results don't lie

Except for the examples of them getting somewhere. Where as Kobe without a #2 won what exactly?

haha why the f*ck would i tell you what YOU posted. that right there just shows you know you're just trolling since you can't even remember the bullshit you keep posting. too funny

More of your circular logic.

I ask for examples of Kobe outplaying Shaq as teammates for any noteworthy amount of time, crickets.

I ask you to back up saying that passing to lesser offensive options being a stupid idea, crickets.

I ask you what being on a flawed offensive team has to do with numbers put up on a dominant, top 3 offense. More crickets.

When asked to expand upon giving more credit to Kobe as DECIDEDLY the Robin to Shaq's Batman than the amount of credit you give to Wade being DECIDEDLY the Batman to Shaq's aging Robin, *chirp chirp*

I ask you to back up the idea that it was easier for a center to score in the early 2000s and harder for a guard? Those same damn crickets again. And the funny thing is, this is all shit you brought up. You'd think you would be eager to expand on these ideas and tell me exactly where and how you are right and I'm a fool. But nope, you really just back it up with "no that is right and you are wrong hahaha". Yeah, that's not trolling at all, lil guy.

You can always tell people who are a fan of THE GAME and people who are fans of just specific players or teams. Their understanding is skewed towards their little piece of the league. When the all-time argument comes up, when comparisons come up, it's all biased towards their guy. Which you can see here. I idolized MJ growing up, like any kid in at the time. But earlier in this thread, Ixm arguing that he was never the distributor that LeBron has been his whole career. I can be even-handed with my favorite player. Now go back and read EVERY response of yours to any Kobe criticism. It's a lot of "Well, you can't" and "If X would have been different" and my favorite "hahaha, no that's so wrong."

Once again, I can make comparisons. I can show you box scores. i can show you averages. I can cite advanced stats or league ranking. And I'll never be close to making a better argument against your bias than your own posts will.

lol @ comparing 05-06 shaq to 3peat era shaq. shaq was no longer dominant in 05-06 BUT the heat still don't win a title without him. so of course wade won FMVP over him. if wade was on the 3peat lakers with shaq, you think he would've won FMVP over him? shaq won FMVP with the lakers because he was the most dominant player in the league at the time. in 05-06, he was no longer the most dominant. what a terrible argument. you need to find better material than this if you want to try and prove wade is on the same level as kobe (he's not)

*looooooooooong sigh*

That's the point. The point was that Shaq was worse in 06. That he played with Kobe in the early 2000s and was the most dominant force in the NBA, and years later he was a defensive liability in the Finals who averaged 14 points/game. That's the point. You got it. Kobe won titles with a dominant monster at center and Wade dominated the postseason with a far lesser Shaq. Not sure how that boosts your argument, but I'm glad you agree with me and can

AI carried that team to the finals in 01 by scoring like crazy AND because they were one of the best defensive teams in the league. why do you keep downplaying that their team defense played a big role in that run?

I've never downplayed their defense. I asked what their defense had to do with AI passing to lesser offensive options on the other end of the court. And you still haven't answered me.

the 04 pistons literally won a title with their defense. what did AI do after 01? Wade doesn't win a finals without shaq and didn't do shit in the playoffs until lebron came. lol @ trying to make it seem like shaq was trash in 05-06. guy still averaged 18 and 10 in the playoffs. so yes, the heat definitely had a secondary scorer. again, try looking at the actual numbers before you make some bullshit claim

What do the Pistons being great at defense have to do with Kobe passing to lesser offensive options??? That's all this is. I make a comp of another elite scorer being a better and more willing passer on another largely offensively-inept squad and you bring up how well the 2004 Pistons played defense. That's a Trump-ism; to make completely disjointed points and large claims to distract from the fact that you don't have any real answers. Just make the subject so wide that you can't be nailed down to being proven wrong. But your inability to accept being wrong doesn't make you any less wrong.

I was the first one to bring up Shaq's numbers in the playoffs. It was like 2 pages ago. And you drop it like it's this discussion-changing point. In the words of every TikTok compilation: Damn boi, he thick.

 

[sfvega]

more indicative of what he was capable of if he played in a system aside from the triangle yes. because like i said, the triangle is designed to distribute assists throughout the entire team. when kobe's assist totals went up post-phil, it was because he was basically playing PG. so if he had been in that role his entire career, it's safe to say his assist totals would've been higher. not sure what's so confusing about that?

nah, i just call out bullshit when i see it. and most of what you've posted to try and claim kobe is not a top 10 player has been just that. also, trying to claim wade is on kobe's level is just.....lol. heat fans would laugh in your face if you told them that

We literally just went through this discussion with MJ at the start of this thread. So, so long ago when the discussion actually made sense. You cannot point to a short timespan of THE BEST NUMBERS OF THEIR CAREER and say "See, this is who they would have been for 20 years." No. Because they played for 20 years and we saw what they were. A 20-year career is a laughably gigantic sample size, and to say it was incorrect but this small section of it was the more accurate is stupid and biased and wrong. It's the Cheechoo argument again. The small sample size isn't wrong, allllll those other years are wrong. Totally makes sense. Not biased at all.

 

[Terry Yake]

What facts? All you do is spout BS and back it up with.....with.....hmmm, I'll let you know what you back it up with whenever you actually start.



The Sixers weren't a high-scoring team. They were ranked 15th out of 29 team, bottom half of the league. So, wrong again. Par for the course. But again, the point is that the supporting cast was weak, AI WAS an elite scorer and he facilitated in the regular season and in the playoffs. So there is a precedent for an elite scorer playing on an offense with very questionable options around him to still include them and get somewhere. It's not this stupid idea that you make it out to be.



Again, everything is an absolute. Iverson averaged 6 assists a game for his CAREER in addition to that postseason. He had high assists as a rookie. He was a very, very good passer as a pro and was a willing facilitator. It's not a case of a guy putting up garbage stats on bad teams.

AI AVERAGED assist numbers that were basically Kobe's career highs.



Except for the examples of them getting somewhere. Where as Kobe without a #2 won what exactly?



More of your circular logic.

I ask for examples of Kobe outplaying Shaq as teammates for any noteworthy amount of time, crickets.

I ask you to back up saying that passing to lesser offensive options being a stupid idea, crickets.

I ask you what being on a flawed offensive team has to do with numbers put up on a dominant, top 3 offense. More crickets.

When asked to expand upon giving more credit to Kobe as DECIDEDLY the Robin to Shaq's Batman than the amount of credit you give to Wade being DECIDEDLY the Batman to Shaq's aging Robin, *chirp chirp*

I ask you to back up the idea that it was easier for a center to score in the early 2000s and harder for a guard? Those same damn crickets again. And the funny thing is, this is all shit you brought up. You'd think you would be eager to expand on these ideas and tell me exactly where and how you are right and I'm a fool. But nope, you really just back it up with "no that is right and you are wrong hahaha."

You can always tell people who are a fan of THE GAME and people who are fans of just specific players or teams. Their understanding is skewed towards their little piece of the league. When the all-time argument comes up, when comparisons come up, it's all biased towards their guy. Which you can see here. I idolized MJ growing up, like any kid in at the time. But earlier in this thread, Ixm arguing that he was never the distributor that LeBron has been his whole career. I can be even-handed with my favorite player. Now go back and read EVERY response of yours to any Kobe criticism. It's a lot of "Well, you can't" and "If X would have been different" and my favorite "hahaha, no that's so wrong."

Once again, I can make comparisons. I can show you box scores. i can show you averages. I can cite advanced stats or league ranking. And I'll never be close to making a better argument against your bias than your own posts will.


*looooooooooong sigh*

That's the point. The point was that Shaq was worse in 06. That he played with Kobe in the early 2000s and was the most dominant force in the NBA, and years later he was a defensive liability in the Finals who averaged 14 points/game. That's the point. You got it. Kobe won titles with a dominant monster at center and Wade dominated the postseason with a far lesser Shaq. Not sure how that boosts your argument, but I'm glad you agree with me and can



I've never downplayed their defense. I asked what their defense had to do with AI passing to lesser offensive options on the other end of the court. And you still haven't answered me.



What do the Pistons being great at defense have to do with Kobe passing to lesser offensive options??? That's all this is. I make a comp of another elite scorer being a better and more willing passer on another largely offensively-inept squad and you bring up how well the 2004 Pistons played defense. to make completely disjointed points and large claims to distract from the fact that you don't have any real answers. Just make the subject so wide that you can't be nailed down to being proven wrong. But your inability to accept being wrong doesn't make you any less wrong.

I was the first one to bring up Shaq's numbers in the playoffs. It was like 2 pages ago. And you drop it like it's this discussion-changing point. In the words of every TikTok compilation: Damn boi, he thick.

the sixers weren't a high scoring team, sure. except once the playoffs rolled around, AI went on an absolute tear and averaged 33 PPG and led them to the finals with his scoring. i'll say it again for the 10th time, that sixers team did not make the finals because AI was passing, they made the finals because AI was scoring and because they were a great defensive team. is this not true?

lolwut. where did the mid 2000s sixers and the post-shaq heat get in the playoffs? are you just trying to speak things into existence now?

one quick look at the stats and you'll see kobe outscored shaq in their last few seasons with the lakers. i thought you said you look at stats? what happened? also, there have been numerous instances of kobe outplaying shaq in the playoffs during the 3peat years in the playoffs but of course, you ignore that because it goes against your agenda

yeah it is a stupid idea. again, look at AI's sixers in the mid 2000s when his assist totals went up and the post-shaq heat. where exactly did those teams go in the playoffs? i'll say it again since you'll be trying hard to ignore reality: the 01 sixers did not reach the finals because of AI passing to his lesser offensive teammates. ignore it all you want lil guy, go back and watch the tapes and you'll see what i'm talking about, mr. i look at stats and box scores. i think thats fake news

yes, shaq was worse in 06 than he was with the lakers. but does that mean he wasn't a legit #2 option for wade like you try to claim? no it doesn't. you keep trying to make it seem like wade won the 06 finals all by himself and that shaq did not factor into the equation at all. pure bullshit. not to mention he still averaged 20 ppg in the regular season

i bring up the 04 pistons winning a title with their defense because you completely ignore how big of a role defense played in the 01 sixers reaching the finals, as if it just isn't possible. AI's scoring and team defense are the two reasons that team went far

 

[sfvega]

the sixers weren't a high scoring team, sure. except once the playoffs rolled around, AI went on an absolute tear and averaged 33 PPG and led them to the finals with his scoring. i'll say it again for the 10th time, that sixers team did not make the finals because AI was passing, they made the finals because AI was scoring and because they were a great defensive team. is this not true?

lolwut. where did the mid 2000s sixers and the post-shaq heat get in the playoffs? are you just trying to speak things into existence now? now that's some trump shit

one quick look at the stats and you'll see kobe outscored shaq in their last few seasons with the lakers. i thought you said you look at stats? what happened? also, there have been numerous instances of kobe outplaying shaq in the playoffs during the 3peat years in the playoffs but of course, you ignore that because it goes against your agenda

yeah it is a stupid idea. again, look at AI's sixers in the mid 2000s when his assist totals went up and the post-shaq heat. where exactly did those teams go in the playoffs? i'll say it again since you'll be trying hard to ignore reality: the 01 sixers did not reach the finals because of AI passing to his lesser offensive teammates. ignore it all you want lil guy, go back and watch the tapes and you'll see what i'm talking about, mr. i look at stats and box scores. i think thats fake news

yes, shaq was worse in 06 than he was with the lakers. but does that mean he wasn't a legit #2 option for wade like you try to claim? no it doesn't. you keep trying to make it seem like wade won the 06 finals all by himself and that shaq did not factor into the equation at all. pure bullshit. not to mention he still averaged 20 ppg in the regular season

i bring up the 04 pistons winning a title with their defense because you completely ignore how big of a role defense played in the 01 sixers reaching the finals, as if it just isn't possible. AI's scoring and team defense are the two reasons that team went far

-I never attributed the Sixers Finals run to ONLY AI's passing. I drew parallels between the two situations and pointed out how he was more willing to play a team game and that the team did get somewhere. Same as when LeBron was without Kyrie and Love. Same as when Wade was distributing on aging team that mostly shot quite poorly. Did they win? Yes. Did they distribute? Yes. Are there parallels between the two players, positions, scoring ability? Yes. Kobe COULD have passed more. He chose not to.

-Kobe outscored Shaq in the playoffs in 04 due to chucking. He shot 41% in the entire playoffs, Shaq was far more efficient. Especially in the Finals against that Pistons team where, for probably the 3rd time, I'll mention how Shaq was dominant going up against the best defender in the league at the time (and likely since) in Ben Wallace and Kobe was below-average against Tayshaun Prince who was near-elite but not Ben Wallace. Tougher match-up, more double-teams, and was still a more efficient scorer by a mile in their last run as teammates. Who led the team in Win Shares that playoffs? I'll wait.

-I'll ask again what the Pistons defense has to do with two elite scoring shooting guards surrounded by a below-average offensive casts, and one of them passing and the other not? My comparison makes sense. Your comparison ignores offense entirely. Offense, if you can remember, is what this whole discussion is about. The fact that AI passed at all proves that it's not a ridiculous ask of an elite player. The fact that he did it while winning proves it further. Which you can't really take away from the process of getting to the Finals, seeing as how it happened. But that doesn't stop you from projecting Kobe abilites. But also, the Sixers faced two extremely close games in the Raptors and Bucks series (that were very close, 7 game series.) In game 5 against Milwaukee, AI was 5/27 from the field and contributed more in his 8 assists.

But the real kicker is in the deciding game 7 against Toronto, which was a classic. I'm sure you don't remember though. It that ended up an 88-87 win for Philly. Iverson was 8/27 this time and the Raptors shot 47% from the field, so the defense was not great. Iverson's 16 assists was the difference in the game. In 2006, Kobe Bryant went into game 7 against the Suns, shot 50% from the field, had ONE assist, and went home. It's hard to look at those two game 7s and come to the conclusion that AI's passing was negligible to the Sixers making the Finals and that Kobe passed as much as he should have for a guy who dominated the ball. It's very clear for anyone who doesn't have their head in purple and gold sand.

-I've asked you what examples, and you again are silent.

-I love the totally sweet comebacks of "Mr. i look at stats and the box score" and "that's some trump shit." I feel like I'm discussing basketball with a child who has never watched the NBA in their defense of not understanding anything or their go-to retort of "nuh uh, you are."

-Your whole argument with Shaq is that he was there. You spend no time refuting him being a defensive liability, you spend no time refuting Wade being a worlds better player in that Finals (a feat Kobe never accomplished), you spend no time refuting his scoring numbers being down to near league-average numbers, his board numbers being down, his block numbers being pedestrian. Your whole claim is they won because he was there. Shaq's numbers showed a steep decline from the reg season to the playoffs to the Finals. They won because of Wade. Lol, nobody who watched that series thinks otherwise. That's how I know you're not a fan of the NBA, you're a fan of Kobe and the Lakers. That series was pretty clear and you don't concede anything that was blatantly obvious to anyone who watched it with two eyes, a TV, and a working brain. Which says a lot

 

[Voight]

At their best there are a number of better players: Hakeem, Garnett, Durant, Wade, Nash, Barkley, Paul. Kobe did have great longevity, but he simply took too many bad shots.

Only Hakeem and KD have somewhat of an argument for top 10. Kobe is by far ahead of the rest.

 

[Terry Yake]

-I never attributed the Sixers Finals run to ONLY AI's passing. I drew parallels between the two situations and pointed out how he was more willing to play a team game and that the team did get somewhere. Same as when LeBron was without Kyrie and Love. Same as when Wade was distributing on aging team that mostly shot quite poorly. Did they win? Yes. Did they distribute? Yes. Are there parallels between the two players, positions, scoring ability? Yes. Kobe COULD have passed more. He chose not to.

-Kobe outscored Shaq in the playoffs in 04 due to chucking. He shot 41% in the entire playoffs, Shaq was far more efficient. Especially in the Finals against that Pistons team where, for probably the 3rd time, I'll mention how Shaq was dominant going up against the best defender in the league at the time (and likely since) in Ben Wallace and Kobe was below-average against Tayshaun Prince who was near-elite but not Ben Wallace. Tougher match-up, more double-teams, and was still a more efficient scorer by a mile in their last run as teammates. Who led the team in Win Shares that playoffs? I'll wait.

-I'll ask again what the Pistons defense has to do with two elite scoring shooting guards surrounded by a below-average offensive casts, and one of them passing and the other not? My comparison makes sense. Your comparison ignores offense entirely. Offense, if you can remember, is what this whole discussion is about. The fact that AI passed at all proves that it's not a ridiculous ask of an elite player. The fact that he did it while winning proves it further. Which you can't really take away from the process of getting to the Finals, seeing as how it happened. But that doesn't stop you from projecting Kobe abilites. But also, the Sixers faced two extremely close games in the Raptors and Bucks series (that were very close, 7 game series.) In game 5 against Milwaukee, AI was 5/27 from the field and contributed more in his 8 assists.

But the real kicker is in the deciding game 7 against Toronto, which was a classic. I'm sure you don't remember though. It that ended up an 88-87 win for Philly. Iverson was 8/27 this time and the Raptors shot 47% from the field, so the defense was not great. Iverson's 16 assists was the difference in the game. In 2006, Kobe Bryant went into game 7 against the Suns, shot 50% from the field, had ONE assist, and went home. It's hard to look at those two game 7s and come to the conclusion that AI's passing was negligible to the Sixers making the Finals and that Kobe passed as much as he should have for a guy who dominated the ball. It's very clear for anyone who doesn't have their head in purple and gold sand.

-I've asked you what examples, and you again are silent.

-I love the totally sweet comebacks of "Mr. i look at stats and the box score" and "that's some trump shit." I feel like I'm discussing basketball with a child who has never watched the NBA in their defense of not understanding anything or their go-to retort of "nuh uh, you are."

-Your whole argument with Shaq is that he was there. You spend no time refuting him being a defensive liability, you spend no time refuting Wade being a worlds better player in that Finals (a feat Kobe never accomplished), you spend no time refuting his scoring numbers being down to near league-average numbers, his board numbers being down, his block numbers being pedestrian. Your whole claim is they won because he was there. Shaq's numbers showed a steep decline from the reg season to the playoffs to the Finals. They won because of Wade. Lol, nobody who watched that series thinks otherwise. That's how I know you're not a fan of the NBA, you're a fan of Kobe and the Lakers. That series was pretty clear and you don't concede anything that was blatantly obvious to anyone who watched it with two eyes, a TV, and a working brain. Which says a lot

-lebron doesn't factor into this discussion because he's the one exception. he led some real bad cavs teams to deep playoff runs in his first tenure there. i'm assuming that's what you mean by "without kyrie and love." because in his second stint, he always had at least one of those guys during those playoff runs (with the exception of the '15 finals when love was out and kyrie got hurt early.) please tell me, when did a dwyane wade heat team without shaq and without lebron make it out of round 1? because you keep on insisting those heat teams "won" when facts clearly show they never made it out of the first round. when did those teams "win"?

-of course shaq led the lakers in win shares in the playoffs. he put up 22 and 13. kobe was awful in the playoffs that year, i already admitted that long ago. but in their last 2-3 seasons together, kobe was the one doing most of the scoring. and 2000 aside, kobe's playoff scoring numbers were right there with shaq's. even though he was this unstoppable, dominant force

-you say AI passed more and "did it while winning." 01 playoff run aside, when exactly did AI's sixers win once his assist totals went up? remember, kobe and AI averaged nearly the same amount of assists per game in the early 00s and in the 01 playoffs. your whole argument is based on "AI's sixers won while AI was a facilitator while kobe's lakers in 06 and 07 lost in round 1." but kobe and AI averaged the same amount of assists/game in the 01 playoffs, so you can't say one was facilitating more than the other. and once AI's assist totals shot up in 04-05, the sixers were done. those teams never made it out of round 1. so i'm not sure what more needs to be said at this point

-examples of kobe outplaying shaq in the playoffs during the early 00s? they were posted already a couple pages ago, why don't you go back and look? 01 WCSF against the kings and WCF against SA, and 02 WCSF against SA are the two i can recall. duncan limited shaq so kobe stepped up and led the team in scoring both times those teams played. also, both the first and second round in the 03 playoffs. and those are just series as a whole, and not individual games

-hey you're the one who said that stuff in the first place, not me

-you know why wade was better than shaq in the 06 finals? because shaq was no longer the most dominant player in the league at that point. if it was kobe on the 06 heat instead of wade, would you still say shaq was the better player? shaq's numbers may have declined, but its not like he was putting up 10 pts and 5 rebounds a game. he was still putting up good numbers and stepped up when the heat needed him in the ECF against detroit by scoring 21 a game with 11 rebounds. wade took over in the finals, but that heat team doesn't even reach the finals without shaq. also, wade was dominant in that finals because he SCORED. not because he was passing. he averaged 3.8 assists/game in the finals that year. so again, there goes your facilitating argument

 

[Perennial]

Only Hakeem and KD have somewhat of an argument for top 10. Kobe is by far ahead of the rest.

I disagree...

I certainly have Garnett ahead of Kobe... and would likely rank Barkley and Wade ahead of him as well

 

[Voight]

I disagree...

I certainly have Garnett ahead of Kobe... and would likely rank Barkley and Wade ahead of him as well

How the hell would you have Wade ranked ahead of Kobe?????

 

[Perennial]

How the hell would you have Wade ranked ahead of Kobe?????

I think Wade was the better player...

Did you have that photo already saved to your computer, or did you have to search it out on Google?

 

[Terry Yake]

wade may have had the better peak, but kobe's prime lasted far longer and he played at a high level for longer than wade did. wade does not belong higher than kobe on any list

and that's not even looking at individual accomplishments

 

[Perennial]

wade may have had the better peak, but kobe's prime lasted far longer and he played at a high level for longer than wade did. wade does not belong higher than kobe on any list

and that's not even looking at individual accomplishments

So, everyone has to rank players based on your criteria, is that it?

 

[Terry Yake]

So, everyone has to rank players based on your criteria, is that it?

well tell me, how can someone with a longer (and more dominant) prime as well as more individual accolades rank lower on a list?

 

[BKIslandersFan]

wade may have had the better peak, but kobe's prime lasted far longer and he played at a high level for longer than wade did. wade does not belong higher than kobe on any list

and that's not even looking at individual accomplishments

I agree.

And thats not a knock on Wade.

Wade still probably top 20 player of all time.

 

[sfvega]

-lebron doesn't factor into this discussion because he's the one exception. he led some real bad cavs teams to deep playoff runs in his first tenure there. i'm assuming that's what you mean by "without kyrie and love." because in his second stint, he always had at least one of those guys during those playoff runs (with the exception of the '15 finals when love was out and kyrie got hurt early.) please tell me, when did a dwyane wade heat team without shaq and without lebron make it out of round 1? because you keep on insisting those heat teams "won" when facts clearly show they never made it out of the first round. when did those teams "win"?

-of course shaq led the lakers in win shares in the playoffs. he put up 22 and 13. kobe was awful in the playoffs that year, i already admitted that long ago. but in their last 2-3 seasons together, kobe was the one doing most of the scoring. and 2000 aside, kobe's playoff scoring numbers were right there with shaq's. even though he was this unstoppable, dominant force

-you say AI passed more and "did it while winning." 01 playoff run aside, when exactly did AI's sixers win once his assist totals went up? remember, kobe and AI averaged nearly the same amount of assists per game in the early 00s and in the 01 playoffs. your whole argument is based on "AI's sixers won while AI was a facilitator while kobe's lakers in 06 and 07 lost in round 1." but kobe and AI averaged the same amount of assists/game in the 01 playoffs, so you can't say one was facilitating more than the other. and once AI's assist totals shot up in 04-05, the sixers were done. those teams never made it out of round 1. so i'm not sure what more needs to be said at this point

-examples of kobe outplaying shaq in the playoffs during the early 00s? they were posted already a couple pages ago, why don't you go back and look? 01 WCSF against the kings and WCF against SA, and 02 WCSF against SA are the two i can recall. duncan limited shaq so kobe stepped up and led the team in scoring both times those teams played. also, both the first and second round in the 03 playoffs. and those are just series as a whole, and not individual games

-hey you're the one who said that stuff in the first place, not me

-you know why wade was better than shaq in the 06 finals? because shaq was no longer the most dominant player in the league at that point. if it was kobe on the 06 heat instead of wade, would you still say shaq was the better player? shaq's numbers may have declined, but its not like he was putting up 10 pts and 5 rebounds a game. he was still putting up good numbers and stepped up when the heat needed him in the ECF against detroit by scoring 21 a game with 11 rebounds. wade took over in the finals, but that heat team doesn't even reach the finals without shaq. also, wade was dominant in that finals because he SCORED. not because he was passing. he averaged 3.8 assists/game in the finals that year. so again, there goes your facilitating argument

A few parting shots and I'll let this lie. I think I've made my points pretty damn clear and backed them up with everything under the sun. If you choose to not learn anything, that's on you.

-Was 2015 what I was referencing when I mentioned Dellavedova and Mozgov? It literally takes you pages to show understanding of very obvious points.

-You still don't understand the concept of the AI comparison in situation (IE: not being on a dominant team), roles, and facilitating and continue to move the goal posts in the argument. Great job.

-I literally gave you Shaq's numbers in the 06 postseason as well as the Finals. His actual averages. Now you're saying that I'm insinuating that he was putting up 10 and 5. No, I've given you his ACTUAL averages. Numerous times. This is the difference between hard numbers and stupid rambling.

Have fun with your stupid rambling and bias tho. I wondered why I only discuss hockey here, and now I know.

 

[Terry Yake]

A few parting shots and I'll let this lie. I think I've made my points pretty damn clear and backed them up with everything under the sun. If you choose to not learn anything, that's on you.

-Was 2015 what I was referencing when I mentioned Dellavedova and Mozgov? It literally takes you pages to show understanding of very obvious points.

-You still don't understand the concept of the AI comparison in situation (IE: not being on a dominant team), roles, and facilitating and continue to move the goal posts in the argument. Great job.

-I literally gave you Shaq's numbers in the 06 postseason as well as the Finals. His actual averages. Now you're saying that I'm insinuating that he was putting up 10 and 5. No, I've given you his ACTUAL averages. Numerous times. This is the difference between hard numbers and stupid rambling.

Have fun with your stupid rambling and bias tho. I wondered why I only discuss hockey here, and now I know.

-where did you mention dellavedova and mozgov? because it wasn't in your last post
-no, i just proved your AI comparison to be BS numerous times so you're only comeback is "waaahhh you don't understand me!" also love how you failed so many times to back up your lie that the mid 00s sixers and the post shaq, pre-lebron heat won anything once AI and wade both saw their assist #s increase. your comeback to that? "waahhhh, you don't understand me!"
-i literally just agreed with you about wade taking over in the finals (with his scoring.) but does that heat team get to the finals without shaq? no they don't. you tried making it seem like the 06 heat was wade balling out the entire time without a legitimate #2 scoring option. in the finals, this was true. but prior to that? absolutely not. shaq was more than just a legit #2 scoring option that season

yeah, you might want to stick to hockey in all honesty, those kind of hot takes seem to be more welcome here

 

[Perennial]

well tell me, how can someone with a longer (and more dominant) prime as well as more individual accolades rank lower on a list?

What stats are you using that support that claim?

 

[Terry Yake]

What stats are you using that support that claim?

kobe had a higher PPG, RPG, 3 pt FG%, FT% and led the league in scoring twice (35 ppg in 06 was the highest total since MJ in 87 and lasted until harden in 19)

also has wade beat in some advanced stats

 

[Perennial]

kobe had a higher PPG, RPG, 3 pt FG%, FT% and led the league in scoring twice (35 ppg in 06 was the highest total since MJ in 87 and lasted until harden in 19)

also has wade beat in some advanced stats

Kobe's career high
VORP = 8.0
BPM = 7.6
Win Shares/48 = 2.10 (twice)
TS% = .576
PER = 28

Wade's career high
VORP = 9.6
BPM = 10.6 (5 seasons above Kobe's career high)
Win Shares/48 = .239 (6 seasons above Kobe's career high)
TS% = .588 (4 seasons above Kobe's career high)
PER = 30.4 (3 seasons at or above Kobe's career high)

But you think Kobe was the better player because he averaged 35 points per game on 45% shooting while playing 41 minutes per game?

Wade has a scoring title too... he shot 49% that season

Wade also averaged 7.5 assists during the year he lead the league in scoring...

Kobe averaged 4.5 assists in '06

Wade also averaged more blocks and steals than Kobe...

 

[Terry Yake]

Kobe's career high
VORP = 8.0
BPM = 7.6
Win Shares/48 = 2.10 (twice)
TS% = .576
PER = 28

Wade's career high
VORP = 9.6
BPM = 10.6 (5 seasons above Kobe's career high)
Win Shares/48 = .239 (6 seasons above Kobe's career high)
TS% = .588 (4 seasons above Kobe's career high)
PER = 30.4 (3 seasons at or above Kobe's career high)

But you think Kobe was the better player because he averaged 35 points per game on 45% shooting while playing 41 minutes per game?

Wade has a scoring title too... he shot 49% that season

Wade also averaged 7.5 assists during the year he lead the league in scoring...

Kobe averaged 4.5 assists in '06

Wade also averaged more blocks and steals than Kobe...

kobe destroys wade when it comes to OWS (122.2 vs 73.3) and WS (172.7 vs 120.7)

so because wade has kobe beat in a handful of advanced stats, it means he was the better player? BTW, i thought we were discussing primes, not careers. if you're really trying to argue that wade had a better career than kobe did, then good luck.

 

[Voight]

I think Wade was the better player...

Did you have that photo already saved to your computer, or did you have to search it out on Google?

Kobe beats Wade in individual accomplishments by a landslide for one. Wade possibly beats him in peak performance (tho I don't agree with that) but in terms of prime, its quite easily Kobe.

 

[Perennial]

kobe destroys wade when it comes to OWS (122.2 vs 73.3) and WS (172.7 vs 120.7)

so because wade has kobe beat in a handful of advanced stats, it means he was the better player? BTW, i thought we were discussing primes, not careers. if you're really trying to argue that wade had a better career than kobe did, then good luck.

Quote me where I said anything about career...

Go ahead, I'll wait...

 

[Terry Yake]

Quote me where I said anything about career...

Go ahead, I'll wait...

thought you were talking about careers since you posted wade's TS% from 13-14 when he was no longer in his prime

 

[dahrougem2]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that lists Wade ahead of Kobe.

 

[tony d]

Wade was a good player but at best he's top 20-25 all time. kobe's in the top 10 all time IMO.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

agreed

If we're being honest with ourselves, Kobe scored a ton but did so because he was a chucker

.447 career fg%
.329 career 3pt%

3rd all time in FG attempts
1st all time in missed FG

He also brought nothing else to the table. Best assist finished were 14th, 15th, 20th, 20th. 3x top 10 in steals, but also 5th all time in turnovers. Let's not forget his nickname of Ko"me"

You don't know what a chucker is. Also, as someone else pointed out, if he 'brought nothing else' to the table, than so did a bunch of other all time greats.