LeBron legacy if he wins title with Lakers

Terry Yake

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All I've said on Kobe/Shaq is that Shaq was more important to those teams and Kobe would not have those rings without Shaq. He was the more dominant player, probably the most dominant of the past 23 years in that run. It's not even worth debating that.

I've given you 3 examples, bud. Great players who have won playoff series with very flawed supporting casts. Kobe lost to a team that never made the Finals and was the start of D'Antoni ball, which everyone in Phoenix and Houston will tell you has also never been championship basketball. The book is out on how flawed his teams have been, and their weakness was also defense so....

I never asked Kobe to not score. I pointed out how he didn't develop as a facilitator, which is a fair criticism. And like a Kobe stan, your counterpoint is that criticism doesn't exist. Lalala, I can't hear you. Kobe is the best! Great argument. I've given you awards, stats, comparables. What has your argument been? Well you can't blame Kobe for this, and you can't blame him for that. Great points....
ok...and shaq would not have those rings without kobe. again, no one's debating shaq's dominance so not sure why you keep bringing that up. no one's even comparing him to kobe

your examples were AI and wade. AI averaged 4.6 assists/game in 00-01, the year his team reached the finals. kobe averaged 5 assists/game that season. in the playoffs they both averaged right around 6 assists/game. that sixers team was carried by iverson on offense and they won games by being a great defensive team (#5 in the league that season with mutombo winning DPOY) so that argument falls flat. now let's do wade. sure, he may have averaged more assists than kobe but his teams never made it out of round 1 without shaq or lebron/bosh. so that one doesn't work either

you argue that kobe should've been more of a facilitator during the 05-06 and 06-07 seasons. do you actually think those teams would've reached the playoffs if kobe wasn't scoring 30+ a game? the only reason those teams even got into the playoffs was because he was scoring at absurd rates

awards and stats? haha, i suggest you stay clear of that route if you want to keep arguing that kobe isn't a top 10 player

The stats would indicate that both Wade and McGrady peaked higher than Kobe...
mcgrady might have. wade probably not. but kobe's prime lasted far longer than either of those two
 

sfvega

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ok...and shaq would not have those rings without kobe. again, no one's debating shaq's dominance so not sure why you keep bringing that up. no one's even comparing him to kobe

I mean, you were the one arguing what I said about Kobe and Shaq. If it's a given that Shaq was the better player and more important to those chips, which were a big part of the argument for Kobe at 6 all time (if there is one), then you should probably just say that.

your examples were AI and wade. AI averaged 4.6 assists/game in 00-01, the year his team reached the finals. kobe averaged 5 assists/game that season. in the playoffs they both averaged right around 6 assists/game. that sixers team was carried by iverson on offense and they won games by being a great defensive team (#5 in the league that season with mutombo winning DPOY) so that argument falls flat.

Lolol. Yeah, let's compare AI on a team he carried to the Finals with Kobe on a three peat team. I've already clarified myself on what I was comparing AI to, and you have continually gotten it wrong. Remember when I spelled it out for you?

I was comparing Iverson with the 76ers to Kobe with the non-Shaq Lakers.

AI averaged 6.1 that playoffs, and 6.5 in the first round, and almost 7 in the regular season. Kobe only played the first round in 06 and averaged 5.1 and averaged 4.4 the next year. AI played on a very good defensive team, which is true. But offensively, they were actually pretty atrocious. In Mutombo despite being a giant only shot 49% from the field and less than 14 points a game. McKie shot 41%, Ty Hill shot 41%, Snow shot 41%. Why pass to those guys? AI also ceded ball-handling duties to Snow in the Finals so they could try to run screens for him, which isn't really true of Kobe as "the man." Worth noting, against the higher-paced, low defense (outside of Marion) D'Antoni ball in 06, Kwame shot 52%, Odom shot 50%, Walton shot 46%.

I'm still not sure that the Lakers win that series, as they were AGAIN a bad team. I've mentioned that about 5 times now. But I do feel like it was a failure on Kobe's part to never develop into a better facilitator. AI and Wade were phenomenal facilitators at times, and there's really no comparison between the two. That was the point. That Kobe's all-around game lacked.

now let's do wade. sure, he may have averaged more assists than kobe but his teams never made it out of round 1 without shaq or lebron/bosh. so that one doesn't work either

Hoooooo boy, somebody needs to go back and watch the 06 Finals because Wade basically won the biggest stage of them all without Shaq. Against Dallas and Dirk, Shaq was completely out of his element and averaged less than 14/game, which Toine also did and that was the entire extent of the secondary scoring. So wildly off-base in thinking Wade goes nowhere without Shaq.

That playoffs, Shaq shot 61% but again was relatively a non-factor in the Finals. White Chocolate shot 40%, Toine shot 40%, Decrepit Glove shot 42%, Posey shot 43%. Why pass to those guys? Wade averaged 6.7 assists a game in the reg season, 7.2 in the first round, 5.7 in the playoff total.


you argue that kobe should've been more of a facilitator during the 05-06 and 06-07 seasons. do you actually think those teams would've reached the playoffs if kobe wasn't scoring 30+ a game? the only reason those teams even got into the playoffs was because he was scoring at absurd rates

Oh, it's true! Getting that 7th seed was one of the most herculean efforts of all time. You realize the type of accomplishments we're talking about in terms of the 6th best player of all-time, right?

awards and stats? haha, i suggest you stay clear of that route if you want to keep arguing that kobe isn't a top 10 player

I mean, what HASN'T Tim Duncan won to put him over Kobe? 5 rings as the best player on every one of those teams, far and away the ROY, 3 Finals MVPs, TWO-time league MVP, 15 time All-Defense, consensus best PF of all-time. Kobe can't say any of that or being the best at his position. Pretty questionable argument for him over Duncan. Or Wilt. Or Russell. Or being better than Shaq when they played together and one was the most dominant player in the league and the other was Kobe Bryant.
 

sfvega

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For the record, I don't think putting Kobe in a category with Wade and Curry, which to clarify is where I see him rn, is a huge insult. I just don't think anyone with credibility can say that Kobe is #6 all-time with the résumés that guys who actually belong there have. Kobe is a phenomenal scorer and was a very good defender for about a decade. But outside of that, his game lacks quite a bit. If Raja Bell is to be believed, Shaq had a hand signal to keep Kobe from jacking up shots, Shaq ended up booted from town because Kobe wanted the spotlight so bad, and his reputation as a guy who looked to shoot 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and pass last didn't really improve from there. His shooting percentages have been brought up. But yeah, I have him about 15th/16th all time.

Without the hype, he's so far away from the Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncans of the world. It's pretty noticeable. I don't think he's anywhere near an average player, but his profile has been boosted from guys wanting to mold their game after him. He was very flashy, won the dunk contest as a rookie, had killer crossovers, and a sick outside shot. It makes sense that guys growing up would idolize him, similarly to how Mike was cool and influential. But in terms of being GOAT basketball players, they are a world apart.
 

FiveTacos

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I never said Iverson was a better player either. I said that he involved his teammates more, even when his team was bad. Kobe, did not. He's probably the most notorious ball hog of the last 30 years. And you're saying this was a strength? Ok. I'm not saying Kobe should have tried to become Steve Nash, but he SHOULD have known that he's not going to outscore teams by himself.

Steve Nash won 0 titles. Why don't you say Steve Nash should have tried to be more like Kobe?

Kobe vs. Shaq as Lakers isn't an argument. Shaq was the best positional player in the NBA. He was the most dominant player of the time, the most unguardable. The leading scorer every year. Leading rebounder every year. Leading blocker. Finals MVP every year. What argument is there for Kobe??

I think a fair argument would be that a great center makes a team a contender. But on its own it wasn't getting the Lakers anywhere, even with a team full of really good players from '97-99. It took Kobe developing into a superstar to get them over the hump.

And I'd still argue that in '00 or in '01, Kobe came up bigger in the WCF. Shaq loses for sure with almost any other SG in '00, and Kobe absolutely had the better series against SA the next year.
 
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Terry Yake

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I mean, you were the one arguing what I said about Kobe and Shaq. If it's a given that Shaq was the better player and more important to those chips, which were a big part of the argument for Kobe at 6 all time (if there is one), then you should probably just say that.



Lolol. Yeah, let's compare AI on a team he carried to the Finals with Kobe on a three peat team. I've already clarified myself on what I was comparing AI to, and you have continually gotten it wrong. Remember when I spelled it out for you?



AI averaged 6.1 that playoffs, and 6.5 in the first round, and almost 7 in the regular season. Kobe only played the first round in 06 and averaged 5.1 and averaged 4.4 the next year. AI played on a very good defensive team, which is true. But offensively, they were actually pretty atrocious. In Mutombo despite being a giant only shot 49% from the field and less than 14 points a game. McKie shot 41%, Ty Hill shot 41%, Snow shot 41%. Why pass to those guys? AI also ceded ball-handling duties to Snow in the Finals so they could try to run screens for him, which isn't really true of Kobe as "the man." Worth noting, against the higher-paced, low defense (outside of Marion) D'Antoni ball in 06, Kwame shot 52%, Odom shot 50%, Walton shot 46%.

I'm still not sure that the Lakers win that series, as they were AGAIN a bad team. I've mentioned that about 5 times now. But I do feel like it was a failure on Kobe's part to never develop into a better facilitator. AI and Wade were phenomenal facilitators at times, and there's really no comparison between the two. That was the point. That Kobe's all-around game lacked.



Hoooooo boy, somebody needs to go back and watch the 06 Finals because Wade basically won the biggest stage of them all without Shaq. Against Dallas and Dirk, Shaq was completely out of his element and averaged less than 14/game, which Toine also did and that was the entire extent of the secondary scoring. So wildly off-base in thinking Wade goes nowhere without Shaq.

That playoffs, Shaq shot 61% but again was relatively a non-factor in the Finals. White Chocolate shot 40%, Toine shot 40%, Decrepit Glove shot 42%, Posey shot 43%. Why pass to those guys? Wade averaged 6.7 assists a game in the reg season, 7.2 in the first round, 5.7 in the playoff total.




Oh, it's true! Getting that 7th seed was one of the most herculean efforts of all time. You realize the type of accomplishments we're talking about in terms of the 6th best player of all-time, right?



I mean, what HASN'T Tim Duncan won to put him over Kobe? 5 rings as the best player on every one of those teams, far and away the ROY, 3 Finals MVPs, TWO-time league MVP, 15 time All-Defense, consensus best PF of all-time. Kobe can't say any of that or being the best at his position. Pretty questionable argument for him over Duncan. Or Wilt. Or Russell. Or being better than Shaq when they played together and one was the most dominant player in the league and the other was Kobe Bryant.
i rank kobe higher than shaq because kobe's prime lasted far longer

why are you comparing the 01 sixers to the 06 lakers? are you really gonna try and argue that the 06 lakers were a better team? lol come on

haha, love how you've conveniently ignored all the examples posted here of times kobe saved the lakers and shaq's ass during the 3peat years when the latter struggled or was in foul trouble. you were the one who tried arguing that wade got somewhere despite playing with scrubs, and that's simply not true because his post-shaq teams never made it out of round 1.

look at the lakers rosters in 05-06 and 06-07. outside of MJ and lebron, tell me a player who could've taken those teams far in the playoffs. this should be fun

you could make an argument for putting duncan over kobe. i just rank kobe higher because he didn't have the stability duncan had during his career and still managed to garner a ton of hardware. duncan never really had to adjust to new systems, new teammates, etc. he had the same coach his entire career and played with the same core guys in parker and ginobili for years
 

Terry Yake

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For the record, I don't think putting Kobe in a category with Wade and Curry, which to clarify is where I see him rn, is a huge insult. I just don't think anyone with credibility can say that Kobe is #6 all-time with the résumés that guys who actually belong there have. Kobe is a phenomenal scorer and was a very good defender for about a decade. But outside of that, his game lacks quite a bit. If Raja Bell is to be believed, Shaq had a hand signal to keep Kobe from jacking up shots, Shaq ended up booted from town because Kobe wanted the spotlight so bad, and his reputation as a guy who looked to shoot 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and pass last didn't really improve from there. His shooting percentages have been brought up. But yeah, I have him about 15th/16th all time.

Without the hype, he's so far away from the Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncans of the world. It's pretty noticeable. I don't think he's anywhere near an average player, but his profile has been boosted from guys wanting to mold their game after him. He was very flashy, won the dunk contest as a rookie, had killer crossovers, and a sick outside shot. It makes sense that guys growing up would idolize him, similarly to how Mike was cool and influential. But in terms of being GOAT basketball players, they are a world apart.
putting kobe on par with wade is just.....lol. even heat fans would tell you that

you could maybe......maybe argue that wade had a better peak due to his all around play. but how much of that was due to kobe playing in the triangle? the triangle spreads the offense out and gets everyone assists. wade was basically playing PG during his peak years. let's also not ignore that kobe averaged more rebounds than wade did
 

Perennial

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mcgrady might have. wade probably not. but kobe's prime lasted far longer than either of those two

The advanced stats show Wade peaked higher... there's not much debate to be had there

Kobe
Victory Over Replacement Players = 8
Box Plus Minus = 7.6
Win Shares/48 = .224
PER = 28

Wade
Victory Over Replacement Player = 9.6
Box Plus Minus = 10.6
Wins Shares/48 = .239
PER = 30.4
 

FiveTacos

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you could make an argument for putting duncan over kobe. i just rank kobe higher because he didn't have the stability duncan had during his career and still managed to garner a ton of hardware. duncan never really had to adjust to new systems, new teammates, etc. he had the same coach his entire career and played with the same core guys in parker and ginobili for years

I just don't like comparing bigs to guards in the first place. The reality is a great big man will probably make a bad team much better than just adding a great guard. But that doesn't mean that at contender level with great teams on both sides, the guards/forwards might not make the bigger difference in deciding the outcome on a lot of occasions.

It's why on my greatest list I break it down into the best big men (Kareem/Wilt level), then forwards (like Bird/LBJ), and then guards. So Duncan might be better if you surrounded him with chumps, compared to Kobe playing with like Parker and Brown. But put them both on contender level teams, and I'm not sure Duncan would be the one you would choose in a tight playoff game over Kobe.

And isn't the tight playoff game situations often been the knock on Lebron? So does that matter or not?
 

BigBadBruins7708

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For the record, I don't think putting Kobe in a category with Wade and Curry, which to clarify is where I see him rn, is a huge insult. I just don't think anyone with credibility can say that Kobe is #6 all-time with the résumés that guys who actually belong there have. Kobe is a phenomenal scorer and was a very good defender for about a decade. But outside of that, his game lacks quite a bit. If Raja Bell is to be believed, Shaq had a hand signal to keep Kobe from jacking up shots, Shaq ended up booted from town because Kobe wanted the spotlight so bad, and his reputation as a guy who looked to shoot 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and pass last didn't really improve from there. His shooting percentages have been brought up. But yeah, I have him about 15th/16th all time.

Without the hype, he's so far away from the Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncans of the world. It's pretty noticeable. I don't think he's anywhere near an average player, but his profile has been boosted from guys wanting to mold their game after him. He was very flashy, won the dunk contest as a rookie, had killer crossovers, and a sick outside shot. It makes sense that guys growing up would idolize him, similarly to how Mike was cool and influential. But in terms of being GOAT basketball players, they are a world apart.

agreed

If we're being honest with ourselves, Kobe scored a ton but did so because he was a chucker

.447 career fg%
.329 career 3pt%

3rd all time in FG attempts
1st all time in missed FG

He also brought nothing else to the table. Best assist finished were 14th, 15th, 20th, 20th. 3x top 10 in steals, but also 5th all time in turnovers. Let's not forget his nickname of Ko"me"
 
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VEGASKING

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He also brought nothing else to the table.

Kobe averaged 5.2 rebounds and 4.7 assists. MJ 6.2 and 5.3, Wade 4.7 and 5.4.

Kobe and MJ both 9 time first defensive team, Kobe was also 3 times second team. Wade 3 times second team, 0 first teams.

Kobe also averaged 3.5 fewer shot attempts per game than MJ while basically averaging the same number of assists yet one guy is regarded as a ball hog chucker.

If Kobe brought nothing else to the table neither did MJ or Wade.
 

FiveTacos

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Kobe averaged 5.2 rebounds and 4.7 assists. MJ 6.2 and 5.3, Wade 4.7 and 5.4.

Kobe and MJ both 9 time first defensive team, Kobe was also 3 times second team. Wade 3 times second team, 0 first teams.

Kobe also averaged 3.5 fewer shot attempts per game than MJ while basically averaging the same number of assists yet one guy is regarded as a ball hog chucker.

If Kobe brought nothing else to the table neither did MJ or Wade.

Look, I'm fully willing to admit Kobe took a good amount of bad shots, particularly early in his career. During his prime, I think the thing was he was often the "bailout" guy when the Lakers couldn't generate a good shot, and they'd just throw it to him with 2 secs on the clock and tell him to make something happen. So while he took some bad shots, he also was probably among the best at actually making tough shots. He was definitely a better shooter (particularly midrange) than his numbers indicate, and he probably did more shooting than driving compared to MJ (and certainly compared to a guy like Wade).

He was a flawed great player. So what? At the end of the day, people who know more about basketball than any of us thought he was great.

Jerry West is the best talent evaluator of the last 40 years and he loved him.

MJ's trainer said Michael used to have young NBA players coming up trying to pick his brain, and he'd always give them a fake phone number for Bulls security or something ... except for Kobe, who he gave his real number to. You think he'd do that if he thought Kobe was just another overrated gunner?

Larry Bird, one of the most unselfish players of all time, said he'd have been happy to play alongside Kobe, and called him his favorite player on multiple occasions. I don't think he'd have said any of that about someone he thought was a selfish chump.
 

Perennial

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Kobe averaged 5.2 rebounds and 4.7 assists. MJ 6.2 and 5.3, Wade 4.7 and 5.4.

Kobe and MJ both 9 time first defensive team, Kobe was also 3 times second team. Wade 3 times second team, 0 first teams.

Kobe also averaged 3.5 fewer shot attempts per game than MJ while basically averaging the same number of assists yet one guy is regarded as a ball hog chucker.

If Kobe brought nothing else to the table neither did MJ or Wade.

As was pointed out in the video that I posted above (post #218), Kobe's reputation as a defender was superior to his actual on-court impact on the defensive end...

Kobe's best Defensive Box Plus Minus season was 1.6, which was the only time he finished above 1.0 in any of his 20 seasons. However, he finished as a minus defensive player in 11 of his 20 seasons...

Jordan's career high DBPM was 4.2 which lead the league, and the only time he ended a season in the minus was his first year in Washington when he finished -0.1
 

Perennial

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DBPM for guards is iffy. I mean, hasn't Klay finished negative a bunch of years, behind "renowned" defensive studs like Steph and Harden? Kind of suggests the stat is horse shit.

Perhaps that's true, but why is Jordan's so much better than Kobe's?

Jordan lead the league twice in DBPM...
 

FiveTacos

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Perhaps that's true, but why is Jordan's so much better than Kobe's?

Jordan lead the league twice in DBPM...

If a stat is going to have value, it can't only work for some players and fail spectacularly with others. Unless you genuinely want to argue that Steph and Harden are better defensively than Klay. I mean, the DBPM says so, right?

It's like if a stat shows that Joe Montana is a great QB, but it also shows that Dave Krieg is better than John Elway, then I'd have to say that the stat sucks. Doesn't mean Montana isn't a great QB, just means the stat isn't particularly meaningful, because anyone who ever watched football knows Elway was better than Krieg, no matter how much an Elway hater might want to believe otherwise and whip out some "advanced" stat that proves his case.
 
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sfvega

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i rank kobe higher than shaq because kobe's prime lasted far longer

why are you comparing the 01 sixers to the 06 lakers? are you really gonna try and argue that the 06 lakers were a better team? lol come on

And LeBron's lasted longer than MJ's. When we're talking about the best of all-time, longevity plays a role. It doesn't make-up a whole lot though. Kobe reminds me of Emmitt Smith in the NFL. Great numbers at the end, but when you look into situation and compiling, he's really not quite as high as you think. Dominance matters for a lot, and Shaq was dominant.

Ugh. I've spelled out exactly why I've brought up AI in this discussion and you've CONTINUALLY moved the goal posts. You originally stated "Why should Kobe pass to inferior offensive players when he's an elite scorer?" And I gave you THREE examples of guys who were elite scorers being better facilitators on teams who were very flawed offensively that shot more poorly. And you say "Well, that team was better on defense." Lmfao, sure let's tackle that entirely different point.

That's entirely your MO this discussion. When you make some stupid claim, and it gets refuted with things that actually happened and stats, you either ignore it entirely or you make a strawman out of the point altogether.

haha, love how you've conveniently ignored all the examples posted here of times kobe saved the lakers and shaq's ass during the 3peat years when the latter struggled or was in foul trouble. you were the one who tried arguing that wade got somewhere despite playing with scrubs, and that's simply not true because his post-shaq teams never made it out of round 1.

What points that you made did I completely ignore? I've literally been telling you what I disagreed with paragraph by paragraph. And you already said that Shaq was a better player and more important to those championships, so are you still arguing that or......?

Lol, I just broke down how Wade destroyed an entire Finals with Shaq as a non-factor and you still act like Shaq was the reason Wade got ANYWHERE, much less to the top of the mountain. Don't pull your old bullshit, walk me through your thought process here. Because history remembers Wade balling out and carrying that VERY flawed team to a chip over a Dallas team that was the betting favorite and thought to be the better team. Tell me how you can act like I'm underrating Kobe on the Lakers playing with 30/15 with 2.5 blocks, in-shape, Finals MVP Shaq but Wade at 35 a game playing with 18/9 with 1.5, even bigger than he was in his last year with LA who was a non-factor in the Finals Shaq? Take all the time you need. I'll make some popcorn and hit recline. This should be the feel-good story of the year. I mean, unless you avoided it completely or act like the argument is about how good the 2012 Heat were defensively. There is no argument, period.

look at the lakers rosters in 05-06 and 06-07. outside of MJ and lebron, tell me a player who could've taken those teams far in the playoffs. this should be fun

Mf, you did it again! I say "I feel like Kobe failed as facilitator. Other players have been better facilitators on equally bad offensive supporting casts." And that turns into who would have won a title with the 2006 Lakers? My head hurts.

You make a point. I make a counterargument. You make a strawman and pretend the argument that I didn't make is laughable. Is it trolling? Do you not want to entertain the idea that you're wrong? Are you grasping at straws? Again. I showed you three examples of players who were elite scorers who were more willing facilitators to poor offensive supporting casts. I've already spelled out my thoughts on the series in my previous post. But you won't entertain the idea that anything you've said was not an absolute truth. Like when you said it was easier for centers to score and harder for guards , and when the stats from that time were posted, you just pivoted to some other extreme claim like a message board Skip Bayless. If everything isn't a hot take stated as an absolute, the universe will explode.

you could make an argument for putting duncan over kobe. i just rank kobe higher because he didn't have the stability duncan had during his career and still managed to garner a ton of hardware. duncan never really had to adjust to new systems, new teammates, etc. he had the same coach his entire career and played with the same core guys in parker and ginobili for years

Lol, Duncan never had to adjust to new teammates? The 1999 team that won was wildly different than the 03 team where Parker was an ok starter and Ginobili was a little-known bench player, verus later in the 2000s when they were both stars, versus the 2014 team where Kawhi won the MVP. Kobe played for Phil for the majority of his prime, all of his Finals or WCF teams, and 9 of his 11 first team All NBA years. Which isn't as good as Duncan/Pop, but it is more than MJ/Phil or Magic/Riley or LeBron/anybody.

The first big paradigm shift Kobe had to deal with was Shaq leaving, which he orchestrated. How is Kobe the perpetrator and victim of his own actions? If he would have been traded in 07 when he demanded it, I'm sure that would also have contributed to his lack of stability. But it seems he himself didn't value stability that much...
 
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sfvega

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putting kobe on par with wade is just.....lol. even heat fans would tell you that

you could maybe......maybe argue that wade had a better peak due to his all around play. but how much of that was due to kobe playing in the triangle? the triangle spreads the offense out and gets everyone assists. wade was basically playing PG during his peak years. let's also not ignore that kobe averaged more rebounds than wade did

Sit there and tell me that Kobe is as good a passer as Wade without the triangle. Wade was a better passer 200%, system or no system. Kobe averaged 5.2 assists in years under Phil and 4.7 in years after Phil. Did he explode in Mike Brown's lack of triangle? Nah, and he actually made it very clear how he felt about that offense.

Plz just stop. Either Kobe has better numbers or you have a 1st team All NBA excuse as to why Kobe would have the better numbers if he played with the same coach and teammates forever and if he didn't play in the triangle and if Chris Mihm was never born. Wade was the better passer. It's a one-option poll.

Kobe was better on the boards. See how hard that was?
 

Terry Yake

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And LeBron's lasted longer than MJ's. When we're talking about the best of all-time, longevity plays a role. It doesn't make-up a whole lot though. Kobe reminds me of Emmitt Smith in the NFL. Great numbers at the end, but when you look into situation and compiling, he's really not quite as high as you think. Dominance matters for a lot, and Shaq was dominant.

Ugh. I've spelled out exactly why I've brought up AI in this discussion and you've CONTINUALLY moved the goal posts. You originally stated "Why should Kobe pass to inferior offensive players when he's an elite scorer?" And I gave you THREE examples of guys who were elite scorers being better facilitators on teams who were very flawed offensively that shot more poorly. And you say "Well, that team was better on defense." Lmfao, sure let's tackle that entirely different point.

That's entirely your MO this discussion. When you make some stupid claim, and it gets refuted with things that actually happened and stats, you either ignore it entirely or you make a strawman out of the point altogether.



What points that you made did I completely ignore? I've literally been telling you what I disagreed with paragraph by paragraph. And you already said that Shaq was a better player and more important to those championships, so are you still arguing that or......?

Lol, I just broke down how Wade destroyed an entire Finals with Shaq as a non-factor and you still act like Shaq was the reason Wade got ANYWHERE, much less to the top of the mountain. Don't pull your old bullshit, walk me through your thought process here. Because history remembers Wade balling out and carrying that VERY flawed team to a chip over a Dallas team that was the betting favorite and thought to be the better team. Tell me how you can act like I'm underrating Kobe on the Lakers playing with 30/15 with 2.5 blocks, in-shape, Finals MVP Shaq but Wade at 35 a game playing with 18/9 with 1.5, even bigger than he was in his last year with LA who was a non-factor in the Finals Shaq? Take all the time you need. I'll make some popcorn and hit recline. This should be the feel-good story of the year. I mean, unless you avoided it completely or act like the argument is about how good the 2012 Heat were defensively. There is no argument, period.



Mf, you did it again! I say "I feel like Kobe failed as facilitator. Other players have been better facilitators on equally bad offensive supporting casts." And that turns into who would have won a title with the 2006 Lakers? My head hurts.

You make a point. I make a counterargument. You make a strawman and pretend the argument that I didn't make is laughable. Is it trolling? Do you not want to entertain the idea that you're wrong? Are you grasping at straws? Again. I showed you three examples of players who were elite scorers who were more willing facilitators to poor offensive supporting casts. I've already spelled out my thoughts on the series in my previous post. But you won't entertain the idea that anything you've said was not an absolute truth. Like when you said it was easier for centers to score and harder for guards , and when the stats from that time were posted, you just pivoted to some other extreme claim like a message board Skip Bayless. If everything isn't a hot take stated as an absolute, the universe will explode.



Lol, Duncan never had to adjust to new teammates? The 1999 team that won was wildly different than the 03 team where Parker was an ok starter and Ginobili was a little-known bench player, verus later in the 2000s when they were both stars, versus the 2014 team where Kawhi won the MVP. Kobe played for Phil for the majority of his prime, all of his Finals or WCF teams, and 9 of his 11 first team All NBA years. Which isn't as good as Duncan/Pop, but it is more than MJ/Phil or Magic/Riley or LeBron/anybody.

The first big paradigm shift Kobe had to deal with was Shaq leaving, which he orchestrated. How is Kobe the perpetrator and victim of his own actions? If he would have been traded in 07 when he demanded it, I'm sure that would also have contributed to his lack of stability. But it seems he himself didn't value stability that much...
lol @ saying kobe was never dominant. go back and watch games in his prime and tell me he wasn't dominant. you're just lying to yourself at this point

you brought up AI in an attempt to say that a star player had success playing with lesser players while being a facilitator. he averaged the same amount of assists as kobe in 00-01 in both the reg. season and playoffs. so again, that argument fails. the 01 sixers reached the finals because AI was scoring like crazy and because they were a good defensive team. not because of AI's passing

there have been numerous examples posted here of times kobe stepped up and led the lakers to a win during the 3peat years when shaq was struggling or out of games. or in some cases, just flat out better than shaq in a specific series. that's what you're ignoring, but i totally get it. you can't acknowledge that when you have to try and prove kobe wasn't important to those teams just because of how good shaq was

you really think wade could've won the 06 finals by himself and without shaq? he may not have been as dominant as he was in LA but if you really think wade would've won in 06 without shaq then you're the one who's trolling here

yes, you brought up AI and wade in the mid 2000s as examples of elite scorers who also had higher assist totals. and i brought up how neither of their teams went anywhere in the playoffs. another point you continue to ignore while reiterating the same BS over and over. clearly, those two becoming facilitators didn't help. maybe they should've put all their focus on scoring

try reading my post next time. i said that duncan played with the same core for nearly his entire career. they were there for all his titles except one. and they got even better when kawhi became a star. yes, all of kobe's success came under phil but he continued to put up high scoring numbers the couple seasons after phil left and before his achilles injury while playing for the likes of mike brown and d'antoni. he also didn't play with the same core group of teammates during his career like duncan did. he played with shaq 8 years, then played with a bunch of g-league talent for 4-5 years before gasol came
 

Terry Yake

Registered User
Aug 5, 2013
26,599
15,012
Sit there and tell me that Kobe is as good a passer as Wade without the triangle. Wade was a better passer 200%, system or no system. Kobe averaged 5.2 assists in years under Phil and 4.7 in years after Phil. Did he explode in Mike Brown's lack of triangle? Nah, and he actually made it very clear how he felt about that offense.

Plz just stop. Either Kobe has better numbers or you have a 1st team All NBA excuse as to why Kobe would have the better numbers if he played with the same coach and teammates forever and if he didn't play in the triangle and if Chris Mihm was never born. Wade was the better passer. It's a one-option poll.

Kobe was better on the boards. See how hard that was?
never said kobe was as good of a passer as wade, just pointed out how the triangle was set up to distribute assists to everyone rather than just one player like in traditional systems

you mean the princeton offense they ran under brown? yeah, that was kobe's idea. the whole point of switching to that offense was to let nash handle the ball and let kobe come off screens and make more cuts to the basket. as opposed to the 11-12 team under brown where their offense was basically "give kobe the ball and get out of the way." his assist numbers jumped from 4.6 in 11-12 to 6.0 in 12-13 as he basically became the PG on that team after nash's injury. based off that, it really wouldn't be wrong to say kobe would've had higher assist totals had he played in a different system than the triangle
 

tacogeoff

Registered User
Jul 18, 2011
11,590
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Killarney, MB
and won 2 three peats with 2 totally different teams with the exception of Pippen.

hells ya. back to back to back. No one is going to have a bigger legacy than MJ. LeBron is a great player but he isn't the G.O.A.T. 6-0 in championship finals give me that guy batting a hundo! that is legendary.
 

sfvega

Registered User
Apr 20, 2015
3,101
2,445
lol @ saying kobe was never dominant. go back and watch games in his prime and tell me he wasn't dominant. you're just lying to yourself at this point

Never said anything about Kobe being dominant or not. I mentioned Shaq. Shaq at his peak was the most dominant player in the NBA since MJ retired.

you brought up AI in an attempt to say that a star player had success playing with lesser players while being a facilitator. he averaged the same amount of assists as kobe in 00-01 in both the reg. season and playoffs. so again, that argument fails. the 01 sixers reached the finals because AI was scoring like crazy and because they were a good defensive team. not because of AI's passing

You're such a f***in troll. Everything I say is made out to be something entirely different where as everything you say is an absolute that is backed up with NOTHING and then ignored.

You: It was easier for centers to score at the time.
Me: Here's the numbers from just one season that points to the opposite.
You: *crickets*

Me: I feel like when Kobe became the man in LA, he still lacked as a a facilitator.
You: What? Why would anyone ever pass to below average offensive players? Lol forever @ that idea.
Me: Here's three examples of elite scorers being better facilitators to bad offensive supporting casts, including AI in 2001.
You: Poor offensive casts? Look at these Kobe assist numbers on the 2001 Lakers. Also, Philly was good at defense that year.

Your idea of a POOR OFFENSIVE CAST IS A TEAM THAT FINISHED 3RD IN SCORING OFFENSE AND WON THE TITLE WITH OFFENSE.

I'm ded. That says so much about either your comprehension level or your Kobe stan level, and honestly I'm content with either because you're making yourself look way worse than I ever could.

Oh, and what does Philly's defense have to do with Iverson dishing the ball on offense. Remember, why pass to Chris Mihm? It's unthinkable. Well, AI passed to George Lynch so maybe it's not a hysterical idea.

Me: Look at Wade's numbers in 06.
You: He wouldn't have won shit without Shaq! (Shaq averaged 14/10 in the Finals)
You also: Shaq wouldn't have won shit without Kobe! (Shaq averaged 31/15 in the Finals)

I would LOVE for you to explain all of these. But backing up literally any of them would do.

there have been numerous examples posted here of times kobe stepped up and led the lakers to a win during the 3peat years when shaq was struggling or out of games. or in some cases, just flat out better than shaq in a specific series. that's what you're ignoring, but i totally get it. you can't acknowledge that when you have to try and prove kobe wasn't important to those teams just because of how good shaq was

I asked you what you posted that I missed and again, you just can't be bothered with posting anything other than "lol" or "Kobe is so great and you just don't want to admit it." Coming from a guy with a f***ING KOBE AVATAR! How did I not notice that earlier?



you really think wade could've won the 06 finals by himself and without shaq? he may not have been as dominant as he was in LA but if you really think wade would've won in 06 without shaq then you're the one who's trolling here

yes, you brought up AI and wade in the mid 2000s as examples of elite scorers who also had higher assist totals. and i brought up how neither of their teams went anywhere in the playoffs. another point you continue to ignore while reiterating the same BS over and over. clearly, those two becoming facilitators didn't help. maybe they should've put all their focus on scoring

try reading my post next time. i said that duncan played with the same core for nearly his entire career. they were there for all his titles except one. and they got even better when kawhi became a star. yes, all of kobe's success came under phil but he continued to put up high scoring numbers the couple seasons after phil left and before his achilles injury while playing for the likes of mike brown and d'antoni. he also didn't play with the same core group of teammates during his career like duncan did. he played with shaq 8 years, then played with a bunch of g-league talent for 4-5 years before gasol came

Watch the Finals. Wade carried that team. Everyone knows this. O'Neal never lost a Finals MVP playing with Kobe, but lost the Finals MVP in a landslide to Wade. Explain to me how you see both of those things and think I'm underrating Kobe on one hand and completely overrating Wade on the other hand. Wade outplayed him in the playoffs, period. Wade outplayed him by a TON in the Finals, period. Shaq outplayed Kobe every playoffs they played together. Shaq won the Finals MVP every playoffs they played together. What am I missing here? Tell me where Kobe outscored Shaq by MORE THAN TWENTY POINTS A GAME in a series.

AI won many playoff series with no big 2nd scorer. Wade won a Finals with Shaq being a pretty average center in the Finals and a liability on the defensive end. Those would be series wins. What Kobe did in 05-07, that would be "going nowhere."

Oh thank GOD Duncan had Manu in 2003 to start 5 games in the regular season and finish the year averaging 7 points and in the playoffs averaged 9 points a game. That stability of having a rookie who he never played with before really boosted his confidence to be 1st team All NBA, 1st team All NBA defense, league MVP, Finals MVP, lead the league in Win Shares. etc. Gosh, without a rookie reserve guard who averaged 7 points, Duncan probably....I'll finish this for you...WOULDN'T HAVE WON ANYTHING! What a joke you are.....
 

sfvega

Registered User
Apr 20, 2015
3,101
2,445
never said kobe was as good of a passer as wade, just pointed out how the triangle was set up to distribute assists to everyone rather than just one player like in traditional systems

you mean the princeton offense they ran under brown? yeah, that was kobe's idea. the whole point of switching to that offense was to let nash handle the ball and let kobe come off screens and make more cuts to the basket. as opposed to the 11-12 team under brown where their offense was basically "give kobe the ball and get out of the way." his assist numbers jumped from 4.6 in 11-12 to 6.0 in 12-13 as he basically became the PG on that team after nash's injury. based off that, it really wouldn't be wrong to say kobe would've had higher assist totals had he played in a different system than the triangle

So what you're saying is that the numbers Kobe posted over his 20-year career are misleading. But one of his highest assist years ever, that's more indicative of what he was actually capable of. Dude, calling you biased would be an insult to the concept of bias. You're a fanboy. That's all you are. Clutching to your love of Kobe the way he was clutching that trophy in the photo. Any criticism of him you find laughable. Any positive could have been even better if the stars had aligned even more for a guy who played for 20 years, mostly for a HOF coach, and got most of his rings playing next to a guy who was unstoppable.

And I'm not shitting on Kobe. I've already said he was a great player. I've already said he was a phenomenal scorer, a top 20 player ever, compared him to guys I hold in high esteem, defended some claims of his play in that YT video. But I'll never see him the way you do without keeping my head submerged in the kool aid for the rest of my life. And I'm normally good at finding common ground in a discussion, but you're on some other planet where Kobe has diety status.
 

Terry Yake

Registered User
Aug 5, 2013
26,599
15,012
Never said anything about Kobe being dominant or not. I mentioned Shaq. Shaq at his peak was the most dominant player in the NBA since MJ retired.



You're such a f***in troll. Everything I say is made out to be something entirely different where as everything you say is an absolute that is backed up with NOTHING and then ignored.

You: It was easier for centers to score at the time.
Me: Here's the numbers from just one season that points to the opposite.
You: *crickets*

Me: I feel like when Kobe became the man in LA, he still lacked as a a facilitator.
You: What? Why would anyone ever pass to below average offensive players? Lol forever @ that idea.
Me: Here's three examples of elite scorers being better facilitators to bad offensive supporting casts, including AI in 2001.
You: Poor offensive casts? Look at these Kobe assist numbers on the 2001 Lakers. Also, Philly was good at defense that year.

Your idea of a POOR OFFENSIVE CAST IS A TEAM THAT FINISHED 3RD IN SCORING OFFENSE AND WON THE TITLE WITH OFFENSE.

I'm ded. That says so much about either your comprehension level or your Kobe stan level, and honestly I'm content with either because you're making yourself look way worse than I ever could.

Oh, and what does Philly's defense have to do with Iverson dishing the ball on offense. Remember, why pass to Chris Mihm? It's unthinkable. Well, AI passed to George Lynch so maybe it's not a hysterical idea.

Me: Look at Wade's numbers in 06.
You: He wouldn't have won shit without Shaq! (Shaq averaged 14/10 in the Finals)
You also: Shaq wouldn't have won shit without Kobe! (Shaq averaged 31/15 in the Finals)

I would LOVE for you to explain all of these. But backing up literally any of them would do.



I asked you what you posted that I missed and again, you just can't be bothered with posting anything other than "lol" or "Kobe is so great and you just don't want to admit it." Coming from a guy with a f***ING KOBE AVATAR! How did I not notice that earlier?





Watch the Finals. Wade carried that team. Everyone knows this. O'Neal never lost a Finals MVP playing with Kobe, but lost the Finals MVP in a landslide to Wade. Explain to me how you see both of those things and think I'm underrating Kobe on one hand and completely overrating Wade on the other hand. Wade outplayed him in the playoffs, period. Wade outplayed him by a TON in the Finals, period. Shaq outplayed Kobe every playoffs they played together. Shaq won the Finals MVP every playoffs they played together. What am I missing here? Tell me where Kobe outscored Shaq by MORE THAN TWENTY POINTS A GAME in a series.

AI won many playoff series with no big 2nd scorer. Wade won a Finals with Shaq being a pretty average center in the Finals and a liability on the defensive end. Those would be series wins. What Kobe did in 05-07, that would be "going nowhere."

Oh thank GOD Duncan had Manu in 2003 to start 5 games in the regular season and finish the year averaging 7 points and in the playoffs averaged 9 points a game. That stability of having a rookie who he never played with before really boosted his confidence to be 1st team All NBA, 1st team All NBA defense, league MVP, Finals MVP, lead the league in Win Shares. etc. Gosh, without a rookie reserve guard who averaged 7 points, Duncan probably....I'll finish this for you...WOULDN'T HAVE WON ANYTHING! What a joke you are.....
haha, i'm the troll? every time you make a bullshit argument and i come at you with facts, you quickly go into meltdown mode. DUDE YOU'RE SUCH A F*CKING TROLL OMG!!!

the 2001 sixers weren't a high scoring team because of george lynch or raja bell or whoever else was on that team. they were a high scoring team because of AI. why is this so hard to grasp? they made the finals because of AI's SCORING. not his passing. again, why is this so hard to grasp? when AI's assist totals went up in the mid 2000s, the team didn't even make the playoffs. when wade's assist totals went up without shaq, his teams never made it out of the first round. so yes, your argument is bullshit as i've said multiple times already. neither AI or wade made their teams better by increasing their assist totals. the stats and results don't lie

haha why the f*ck would i tell you what YOU posted. that right there just shows you know you're just trolling since you can't even remember the bullshit you keep posting. too funny

lol @ comparing 05-06 shaq to 3peat era shaq. shaq was no longer dominant in 05-06 BUT the heat still don't win a title without him. so of course wade won FMVP over him. if wade was on the 3peat lakers with shaq, you think he would've won FMVP over him? shaq won FMVP with the lakers because he was the most dominant player in the league at the time. in 05-06, he was no longer the most dominant. what a terrible argument. you need to find better material than this if you want to try and prove wade is on the same level as kobe (he's not)

AI carried that team to the finals in 01 by scoring like crazy AND because they were one of the best defensive teams in the league. why do you keep downplaying that their team defense played a big role in that run? the 04 pistons literally won a title with their defense. what did AI do after 01? Wade doesn't win a finals without shaq and didn't do shit in the playoffs until lebron came. lol @ trying to make it seem like shaq was trash in 05-06. guy still averaged 18 and 10 in the playoffs. so yes, the heat definitely had a secondary scorer. again, try looking at the actual numbers before you make some bullshit claim
 
Last edited:

Terry Yake

Registered User
Aug 5, 2013
26,599
15,012
So what you're saying is that the numbers Kobe posted over his 20-year career are misleading. But one of his highest assist years ever, that's more indicative of what he was actually capable of. Dude, calling you biased would be an insult to the concept of bias. You're a fanboy. That's all you are. Clutching to your love of Kobe the way he was clutching that trophy in the photo. Any criticism of him you find laughable. Any positive could have been even better if the stars had aligned even more for a guy who played for 20 years, mostly for a HOF coach, and got most of his rings playing next to a guy who was unstoppable.

And I'm not shitting on Kobe. I've already said he was a great player. I've already said he was a phenomenal scorer, a top 20 player ever, compared him to guys I hold in high esteem, defended some claims of his play in that YT video. But I'll never see him the way you do without keeping my head submerged in the kool aid for the rest of my life. And I'm normally good at finding common ground in a discussion, but you're on some other planet where Kobe has diety status.
more indicative of what he was capable of if he played in a system aside from the triangle yes. because like i said, the triangle is designed to distribute assists throughout the entire team. when kobe's assist totals went up post-phil, it was because he was basically playing PG. so if he had been in that role his entire career, it's safe to say his assist totals would've been higher. not sure what's so confusing about that?

nah, i just call out bullshit when i see it. and most of what you've posted to try and claim kobe is not a top 10 player has been just that. also, trying to claim wade is on kobe's level is just.....lol. heat fans would laugh in your face if you told them that
 

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