News Article: Lebreton...Interesting...NCC - PART 2

[Tnuoc Alucard]

How many electric buses could they have bought for that same money & reduced the polution from diesel buses?

Electric buses cost twice as much as diesel powered buses. Hybrid might have been an option… but know that a lot of big delivery companies (Purolator, FedEx) tried both electric and hybrids and after a couple of winters got rid of them all.

 

[Stylizer1]

WElectric buses cost twice as much as diesel powered buses. Hybrid might have been an option… but know that a lot of big delivery companies (Purolator, FedEx) tried both electric and hybrids and after a couple of winters got rid of them all.

When the buses went down during the ice storm I googled LRT's around Europe and found they ran into the exact same problems as we had during the Winters.

The people in charge of choosing this system did so with no knowledge required to make a sound decision. Every single tower along the lrt line is a potential risk for malfunction.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

And all this time, we could've kept the streetcars and the infrastructure that was in place for them, but nooooooo. Not to mention a downtown train station.

 

[Cosmix]

Yeah... agreed, buses are archaic.

They work! Trolley buses too.

When the buses went down during the ice storm I googled LRT's around Europe and found they ran into the exact same problems as we had during the Winters.

The people in charge of choosing this system did so with no knowledge required to make a sound decision. Every single tower along the lrt line is a potential risk for malfunction.

Ice Storms like the one we had would cause problems for any above ground systems. How often do major ice storms occur?

 

[thinkwild]

They work! Trolley buses too.


Ice Storms like the one we had would cause problems for any above ground systems. How often do major ice storms occur?

I think they used to call it a once in 500 year event. But that was before we crossed the line of pumping millions of tonnes of poison gasses day after day after year after year into the thin ribbon of atmosphere that contains the air we evolved to breathe in but has now changed.

 

[Cosmix]

I suppose the human race will have to evolve to live underground like the Morlocks in HG Wells' story The Time Machine.

 

[Big Muddy]

And all this time, we could've kept the streetcars and the infrastructure that was in place for them, but nooooooo. Not to mention a downtown train station.

Street cars were a very reliable people mover system. They were replaced by buses who used a predatory pricing schema to push transit authority's into buying them, thus reducing & ultimately replacing buses. Now they are being implemented again all over the place.

 

[Big Muddy]

When the buses went down during the ice storm I googled LRT's around Europe and found they ran into the exact same problems as we had during the Winters.

The people in charge of choosing this system did so with no knowledge required to make a sound decision. Every single tower along the lrt line is a potential risk for malfunction.

TTC street cars have been running for years. There have been many electric people mover systems used for years in Europe, North America, etc. The reason for this is that electric based propulsion people movers can move much larger volumes of people much faster than buses can. Given the frequency of your posts on the same theme, I think you have a very negative view of these systems. But, there must be some reason they have been implemented worldwide for over a hundred years you'd think. Yes, electric systems do require maintenance though of course.

Building roads which buses will depend upon in a city wide implementation also has its costs and limitations.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I think they used to call it a once in 500 year event. But that was before we crossed the line of pumping millions of tonnes of poison gasses day after day after year after year into the thin ribbon of atmosphere that contains the air we evolved to breathe in but has now changed.

CO2, is not poison…. So which gases are you referring to?

And all this time, we could've kept the streetcars and the infrastructure that was in place for them, but nooooooo. Not to mention a downtown train station.

this was interesting…. Lead me to this one

 

[Micklebot]

CO2, is not poison…. So which gases are you referring to?

Poison is in the dose, Co2 poisoning kills about 100 people a year in the US.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Poison is in the dose, Co2 poisoning kills about 100 people a year in the US.

CO2 in the atmosphere does not kill anyone.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

CO2 in the atmosphere does not kill anyone.

It actually makes soda water... and pushes the beer from the keg to the glass

It is endagered!

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/22/1124491808/beer-carbon-dioxide-shortage

 

[Micklebot]

CO2 in the atmosphere does not kill anyone.

Naturally occuring Arsenic in apples doesn't kill anyone either, but it's still a poison.

 

[Loach]

Hee Haw! Lol

 

[Stylizer1]

They work! Trolley buses too.


Ice Storms like the one we had would cause problems for any above ground systems. How often do major ice storms occur?

I don't know of you remember but last year we two ice storms. One was major and the other was very minor. Both caused the system to shut down. We have ice storms every single year.

Systems with third rails are also electric and are extremely robust to environmental conditions. They are just not fancy enough for our wannabe elitist ideologues to digest. For climates like ours that would have been the best solution. Far less stress points to worry about malfunctioning.

 

[Stylizer1]

TTC street cars have been running for years. There have been many electric people mover systems used for years in Europe, North America, etc. The reason for this is that electric based propulsion people movers can move much larger volumes of people much faster than buses can. Given the frequency of your posts on the same theme, I think you have a very negative view of these systems. But, there must be some reason they have been implemented worldwide for over a hundred years you'd think. Yes, electric systems do require maintenance though of course.

Building roads which buses will depend upon in a city wide implementation also has its costs and limitations.

I have a negative view of this system in our climate. When they proposed this system I said the very same thing. I said running buses through the tunnel would be better but if ultimately were going to go with a train system they should use something similar to a subway/thirdrail system. Look at the reliability of the otrain. It's been in use for over 20 years and you never hear about problems because it is a simple diesel system that has a proven track record.

The system in Toronto works well because the climate there is different than it is in Ottawa. Conditions tend to be less severe there compared to Ottawa in the dead of winter. Officials said they wanted a system that was safe and wanted low platforms to reduce dangers associated with higher platorms.

I've been on many systems in different countries and the one we are stuck with is the most problematic. Cities with the same systems as the one we have experience the se problems related to weather. We purchased a 3 season system.

I am not opposed to electric, I am opposed to the type.

 

[Big Muddy]

I have a negative view of this system in our climate. When they proposed this system I said the very same thing. I said running buses through the tunnel would be better but if ultimately were going to go with a train system they should use something similar to a subway/thirdrail system. Look at the reliability of the otrain. It's been in use for over 20 years and you never hear about problems because it is a simple diesel system that has a proven track record.

The system in Toronto works well because the climate there is different than it is in Ottawa. Conditions tend to be less severe there compared to Ottawa in the dead of winter. Officials said they wanted a system that was safe and wanted low platforms to reduce dangers associated with higher platorms.

I've been on many systems in different countries and the one we are stuck with is the most problematic. Cities with the same systems as the one we have experience the se problems related to weather. We purchased a 3 season system.

I am not opposed to electric, I am opposed to the type.

OK. Well not sure what your exact points are as they have been kind of hard to follow. If you're saying that Ottawa's implementation of the LRT has been problematic, that is probably the easiest of the lot to wrap your head around. I was just saying that electric propulsion systems with overhead contact systems (OCS) which are also called catenary systems have been around for a long time and have operated successfully in many locations including areas with cold climates. Seeing as how you've stated you've been to all those different places, you would have undoubtedly noticed that.

Third rail systems are another form of electric traction systems that have been used but are less popular in people mover systems. It's because the third rail is dangerous to cross over by maintenance workers and in emergency situations. There have been a number of 3rd rail systems implemented though of course.

LRT systems are 600 to 750 volt systems and the OCS structure are often single pole design. Commuter rail, intercity rail, and subway systems are typically 12.3 or 25 kV (kilo volts) although there are others. 600 to 750 volts is sufficient to move a light vehicle (and fewer passengers) where as the 12.3 & 25 kV systems are used in mass transit systems where there are heavier vehicles and larger amounts of passengers. All of the systems mentioned in this paragraph use overhead contact/catenary systems to deliver electrical power to the vehicles traction power system.

 

[Stylizer1]

OK. Well not sure what your exact points are as they have been kind of hard to follow. If you're saying that Ottawa's implementation of the LRT has been problematic, that is probably the easiest of the lot to wrap your head around. I was just saying that electric propulsion systems with overhead contact systems (OCS) which are also called catenary systems have been around for a long time and have operated successfully in many locations including areas with cold climates. Seeing as how you've stated you've been to all those different places, you would have undoubtedly noticed that.

I was very clear.

 

[Big Muddy]

I was very clear.

Depends on which post you are referring to, but I am just going to agree & move on.

 

[Stylizer1]

The system we are getting works well in most European cities because they experience lighter winter conditions than the type we do in Ottawa. You would think a country like Switzerland received a lot of snow and it does in the mountains but in the areas where their let systems run they get very light snow fall.

 

[Cosmix]

The Ottawa LRT system seems to have had more problems than most other systems. I seldom use it as I am retired so my experience is limited. It seems to be suffering from problems caused by political interference and incompetence in the design and procurement processes.

 

[Beech]

The Ottawa LRT system seems to have had more problems than most other systems. I seldom use it as I am retired so my experience is limited. It seems to be suffering from problems caused by political interference and incompetence in the design and procurement processes.

stylizer put his hand on it best...

Ottawa's weather is extreme, Far worse than most other nations. We are colder than all but one Capital (Ulan Bator). Our weather is more sever than other cities that are 1000-2000 KM further north than we are.

-30 in winter +35 in summer. That is a 65 degree swing... a simple 3 inch diameter hole will experience 0.001-0.002 inches of expansion or contraction. Now the eye barely sees this, but the stresses on the metal are massive.

So now add stresses due to loading. and teh combine stresses can lead to failure. Imagine a +35 day, a full train and it moving at top speed... Or worst a -30 day, a full train, it moving at speed, frozen ground, so no dampening.. Now shock loads are at their max.. SHOCK LOADS ARE 10-20 G.... 1000-2000 m/sec^2.

now consider non metals and their brittleness. Their hygroscopy, their age hardening. Pits and voids that can expand and contract.

Designing for the elements in Canada is hellish. You cannot have above ground and all the while the cheapest bidder and lowest cost.

The LRT needed to be a brick shit house. not a delicate flower.

10^6 cycles in low cycle fatigue. it will begin to hit most areas in 5-10 years of use... If you think there are problems today, wait until 2026-2027.

 

[Cosmix]

stylizer put his hand on it best...

Ottawa's weather is extreme, Far worse than most other nations. We are colder than all but one Capital (Ulan Bator). Our weather is more sever than other cities that are 1000-2000 KM further north than we are.

-30 in winter +35 in summer. That is a 65 degree swing... a simple 3 inch diameter hole will experience 0.001-0.002 inches of expansion or contraction. Now the eye barely sees this, but the stresses on the metal are massive.

So now add stresses due to loading. and teh combine stresses can lead to failure. Imagine a +35 day, a full train and it moving at top speed... Or worst a -30 day, a full train, it moving at speed, frozen ground, so no dampening.. Now shock loads are at their max.. SHOCK LOADS ARE 10-20 G.... 1000-2000 m/sec^2.

now consider non metals and their brittleness. Their hygroscopy, their age hardening. Pits and voids that can expand and contract.

Designing for the elements in Canada is hellish. You cannot have above ground and all the while the cheapest bidder and lowest cost.

The LRT needed to be a brick shit house. not a delicate flower.

10^6 cycles in low cycle fatigue. it will begin to hit most areas in 5-10 years of use... If you think there are problems today, wait until 2026-2027.

You sound like one of those iron ring fellows.

 

[Beech]

You sound like one of those iron ring fellows.

Dumbed poem ever is the iron ring ceremony with Rudyard Kipling's poem/oat.

F'ng government... No one ever learns. Low bid is for your second wedding and hopefully the bride helps pay. Trains that move cities need to be reliable...

God forbid the first derailment or accident. Now let's hear the screaming (literally and figuratively)

 

[Cosmix]

Dumbed poem ever is the iron ring ceremony with Rudyard Kipling's poem/oat.

F'ng government... No one ever learns. Low bid is for your second wedding and hopefully the bride helps pay. Trains that move cities need to be reliable...

God forbid the first derailment or accident. Now let's hear the screaming (literally and figuratively)

The story I read about the Ottawa LRT RFP process seemed to be far too politically influenced with the requirements changed to allow selection of the proposals that did not meet the original requirements. That is a recipe for disaster.

The garbage collection contract many years ago was another horrible disaster based on picking the lowest price bid of an entity that could not perform the job required because it did not have the trucks nor staff. The City staff and police people never learn.