Sportsnet: Leafs meeting with DeKeyser [Signs with DET]

[smitty10]

I'm starting to wish more Toronto area kids would go to the NCAA and come out free agents so they could sign with the Leafs.

Lots of Toronto kids do go to NCAA, but most are either already drafted or not good enough for NHL duty when they complete school.

 

[newfy]

And DeKeyser should have the foresight to see that the Leafs are on the rise and the Wings are headed in the opposite direction. Their homegrown defensemen like Ericsson, Kindl and Smith haven't exactly been good...

The leafs have had one homegrown Dman on their team consistently this season. The wings most common 6 D have all been home grown (Quincey left but came back) and theyre 8th in GA/G this year.

Ericcson has been really good this year, Smith hasnt been producing but is solid defensively and Kindl is the biggest surprise on the team all season probably. I dont think using homegrown dmen as a selling point over the wings would be the greatest idea

 

[Stephen]

The leafs have had one homegrown Dman on their team consistently this season. The wings most common 6 D have all been home grown (Quincey left but came back) and theyre 8th in GA/G this year.

Ericcson has been really good this year, Smith hasnt been producing but is solid defensively and Kindl is the biggest surprise on the team all season probably. I dont think using homegrown dmen as a selling point over the wings would be the greatest idea

Ericsson (29), Smith (24), Quincey (27) and Kindl (26) have combined for 713 NHL games played.

Ian White (28) and Luke Schenn (23) combined have 839 NHL games played between just the two of them.

You tell me who's in the business of developing useful NHLers and who's developing spare parts.

 

[Deebo]

Ericsson (29), Smith (24), Quincey (27) and Kindl (26) have combined for 713 NHL games played.

Ian White (28) and Luke Schenn (23) combined have 839 NHL games played between just the two of them.

You tell me who's in the business of developing useful NHLers and who's developing spare parts.

Wait, Schenn is a useful NHLer now?

 

[rdawg1234]

Edmonton is only 3 points out of a playoff spot though

The whole west conference is 3-4 points out of the playoffs minus Calgary and Colorado, gonna be a tough fight for them to get in, they could easily end up with a bottom 7-8 pick.

Edmonton has along way to go IMO, I dont think their forward group is nearly in the same mold as say Pittsburgh, it's not at that level, but it is talented. They just need alot of defense and support players(maybe goaltending too.)

 

[newfy]

Ericsson (29), Smith (24), Quincey (27) and Kindl (26) have combined for 713 NHL games played.

Ian White (28) and Luke Schenn (23) combined have 839 NHL games played between just the two of them.

You tell me who's in the business of developing useful NHLers and who's developing spare parts.

So a top 5 pick who didnt turn out all that well and has already been traded at 23 and a 28 year old whose been on 5 teams already shows that Toronto has been great at developing dmen?

Compared to a team using 6 homegrown players that have them in 8th in GA/G in the NHL. With a line up that has one undrafted player, one guy who was the last pick in the draft, a 4th rounder and 3 late first rounders. One of those first rounders is 3rd in NHL defensive scoring.

Youre right Toronto is killing it compared to Detroit when it comes to homegrown dmen

 

[Leaf Rocket]

Are you assuming this based on geographic location or has there been speculation that he will end up in the wings system?

based on talk on how he's from that area, grew up as a wings fan, the current coach or the assistant coach of the grand rapid griffins is his former coach.

 

[false bobo]

Wait, Schenn is a useful NHLer now?

Yup. Ask Philly fans.

 

[Stephen]

So a top 5 pick who didnt turn out all that well and has already been traded at 23 and a 28 year old whose been on 5 teams already shows that Toronto has been great at developing dmen?

Compared to a team using 6 homegrown players that have them in 8th in GA/G in the NHL.With a line up that has one undrafted player, one guy who was the last pick in the draft, a 4th rounder and 3 late first rounders. One of those first rounders is 3rd in NHL defensive scoring.

Youre right Toronto is killing it compared to Detroit when it comes to homegrown dmen

Wait, what are you even referring to right now? Don't use the draft position clutch, you have Kronwall who is a great NHL defenseman, whom you developed a decade ago, and 3 guys, 2 of whom were all supposedly the future of defensemen in the NHL (Smith and Kindl) who are okay, and then you've resorted to playing Ian White, a Leaf product, and you signed Carlo Colaiacovo (another Leaf product) because your blueline is shot.

The Leafs have developed White, Schenn, Gardiner, Harrison, Colaiacovo, Stralman, Gunnarsson.

 

[Mansfield]

Ericsson (29), Smith (24), Quincey (27) and Kindl (26) have combined for 713 NHL games played.

Ian White (28) and Luke Schenn (23) combined have 839 NHL games played between just the two of them.

You tell me who's in the business of developing useful NHLers and who's developing spare parts.

this.

 

[Pierre Gotye]

Ericsson (29), Smith (24), Quincey (27) and Kindl (26) have combined for 713 NHL games played.

Ian White (28) and Luke Schenn (23) combined have 839 NHL games played between just the two of them.

You tell me who's in the business of developing useful NHLers and who's developing spare parts.

I don't think your point as to who develops defenseman better holds much clout. Red Wings used guys like Chelios, Rafalski...who were free agents for years.

But they also developed guys like Lidstrom,

Meanwhile Ian White hasn't been playing much lately.

In all honesty, the Red Wings have just as many hits and misses as the Leafs do. The only guys the Leafs can really claim as their own right now is Carl Gunarrsson. All the rest were either obtained via UFA's or through trades. We have yet to see what Blacker can do, and Holzer isn't ready and/or was never put into a position where he could succeed.

The difference is Kindl, Ericsson, and Quincey were late first round picks. Most guys selected there are rarely considered NHL givens, and are usually thought of as long-term projects. Which is why they haven't hit your stardom meter.

 

[newfy]

Wait, what are you even referring to right now? Don't use the draft position clutch, you have Kronwall who is a great NHL defenseman, whom you developed a decade ago, and 3 guys, 2 of whom were all supposedly the future of defensemen in the NHL (Smith and Kindl) who are okay, and then you've resorted to playing Ian White, a Leaf product, and you signed Carlo Colaiacovo (another Leaf product) because your blueline is shot.

The Leafs have developed White, Schenn, Gardiner, Harrison, Colaiacovo, Stralman, Gunnarsson.

Yeah the wings have developed a number 1 dman in Kronwall, 3 top 4 dmen in Ericcson, Kindl, and Smith, they have an undrafted free agent playing in Lashoff and a #5dman in Quincey.

White barely plays now that the blue line is healthy hes a healthy scratch quite a bit and Carlo was a depth signing who has played 2 games. The top 6 dmen in games played and TOI/game are home grown. And they have the team sitting at 8th in GA/G.

Schenn was a top 5 pick you dont see the difference in developing a safe player from 5th overall compared to developing a guy like Ericcons into a top 4 dman when he was the last pick in the draft? And I really dont think the Leafs would be going to an a free agent saying "look how awesome our development went with Schenn, we develop dmen really well" because even most leaf fans think management screwed that one up big time

I also dont know if I would say the Leafs developed Gardiner. He was in Anaheims system 3 years and got traded to the Leafs where he made the team out of camp, unless you think that 1 training camp was a huge step in his development?

The leafs have done pretty well developing dmen but saying their development is better than Detroit is pretty ridiculous right now

 

[Stephen]

I don't think your point as to who develops defenseman better holds much clout. Red Wings used guys like Chelios, Rafalski...who were free agents for years.

But they also developed guys like Lidstrom,

Sure, traditionally the Red Wings have been much better than Toronto in all aspects of on ice and off ice affairs. Not debating that. But my point is they haven't developed any star players in quite a while. Danny DeKeyser was born a year after Nicklas Lidstrom was drafted, for crying out loud.

Meanwhile Ian White hasn't been playing much lately.

In all honesty, the Red Wings have just as many hits and misses as the Leafs do. The only guys the Leafs can really claim as their own right now is Carl Gunarrsson.

All the rest were either obtained via UFA's or through trades. We have yet to see what Blacker can do, and Holzer isn't ready and/or was never put into a position where he could succeed.

Doesn't change the fact that we developed Luke Schenn, Carlo Colaiacovo, Ian White, Jay Harrison, Anton Stralman in our system for many years before they moved on to be useful NHLers in the last decade. We have more of them than Detroit has.

And why doesn't Jake Gardiner count as a Leaf product? Every minute of his professional career has been in our system.

All the rest were either obtained via UFA's or through trades. We have yet to see what Blacker can do, and Holzer isn't ready and/or was never put into a position where he could succeed.

The difference is Kindl, Ericsson, and Quincey were late first round picks. Most guys selected there are rarely considered NHL givens, and are usually thought of as long-term projects. Which is why they haven't hit your stardom meter.

Actually, Kindl, Ericsson, Quincey and Smith are products of the Detroit Hype Machine that promises impact players as soon as they put on a red jersey:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/archive/index.php/t-259224.html

However, the biggest winner has to be Jakub Kindl. He's going to be a Red Wing. He'll play a lot in Grand Rapids, he'll be exposed to guys like Lidstrom, Chelios and Schneider during training camp,but most importantly, he won't be rushed into anything and he's going to play for an organization that does nothing but win. I'm thinking he's going to have a legitimate chip on his shoulder (due to how far he fell in the draft) and it would not surprise me at all if he turns out to be the best of the defenders. I say in five years, Kindl becomes the leader of the D-corp in Detroit and will win a Norris trophy or two before he retires.

The same quiet hype has followed Brendan Smith, and to a lesser extent Jonathan Ericsson.

The logic is "oh, they're Red Wings? Superstar."

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

So a top 5 pick who didnt turn out all that well and has already been traded at 23 and a 28 year old whose been on 5 teams already shows that Toronto has been great at developing dmen?

Compared to a team using 6 homegrown players that have them in 8th in GA/G in the NHL. With a line up that has one undrafted player, one guy who was the last pick in the draft, a 4th rounder and 3 late first rounders. One of those first rounders is 3rd in NHL defensive scoring.

Youre right Toronto is killing it compared to Detroit when it comes to homegrown dmen

How much of that is directly related to having some of the best defensive forwards in the game?

 

[Stephen]

Yeah the wings have developed a number 1 dman in Kronwall, 3 top 4 dmen in Ericcson, Kindl, and Smith, they have an undrafted free agent playing in Lashoff and a #5dman in Quincey.

Kindl and Smith both play less minutes than Ian White, nice try. And Smith isn't much of an offensive defenseman with those 3 assists, is he? Remember when people were saying he was better than Justin Schultz and Jake Gardiner, what a laugh.

I also dont know if I would say the Leafs developed Gardiner. He was in Anaheims system 3 years and got traded to the Leafs where he made the team out of camp, unless you think that 1 training camp was a huge step in his development?

One training camp? It's 2013. He's played almost two full professional years in Toronto. Before that, Jake Gardiner played college hockey from 2008 till he was traded to Toronto in 2011, logging zero minutes for the Anaheim organization in the NHL or AHL until he got to Toronto. Nice try.

Nice try, Wings homer.

 

[newfy]

Kindl and Smith both play less minutes than Ian White, nice try. And Smith isn't much of an offensive defenseman with those 3 assists, is he? Remember when people were saying he was better than Justin Schultz and Jake Gardiner, what a laugh.



One training camp? It's 2013. He's played almost two full professional years in Toronto. Before that, Jake Gardiner played college hockey from 2008 till he was traded to Toronto in 2011, logging zero minutes for the Anaheim organization in the NHL or AHL until he got to Toronto. Nice try.

Nice try, Wings homer.

No youre right on the Ian White thing, I musta been looking at Huskins or something but he still has played less games and has been a healthy scratch consistently lately. But a big part of that is hes the only right handed option for the PP and hes still a decent dman.

Smiths had a pretty bad offensive season but he was dealing with an injury too. Hes been solid all year. I have a feeling you dont watch wings games.


Answer this though, which team has had their top 6 dmen be homegrown all year and which one has had 1 homegrown dman on the roster consistently? And which of those 2 teams is 8th in GA? You can throw names around all you want but the wings are getting it done with homegrown talent at pretty much every position.

One team has turned the last pick in the draft into a top 4 dman and the other team turned a 5th overall pick into a top 5 pick and has already shipped him out of town.

One team has the 3rd defensive scorer in the league on their blue line, the other team has 1 homegrown player consistently playing.

One teams all home grown blue line has an average draft position of 118 (counting Lashoff as a last pick), and one has one homegrown player on their defense. Draft position does matter because developing guys at 5th overall isnt really noteworthy. All you have to do is not screw it up and some would actually argue the Leafs did screw it up with Schenn

 

[Stephen]

Answer this though, which team has had their top 6 dmen be homegrown all year and which one has had 1 homegrown dman on the roster consistently? And which of those 2 teams is 8th in GA? You can throw names around all you want but the wings are getting it done with homegrown talent at pretty much every position.

Well, the Leafs have more bodies developed currently populating NHL rosters. Like we developed Ian White, but traded him for our captain Dion Phaneuf, how how we converted a defenseman into a forward who has a ton of potential in JVR. And in this respect, we have been better at developing defensemen than Detroit.

One team has turned the last pick in the draft into a top 4 dman and the other team turned a 5th overall pick into a top 5 pick and has already shipped him out of town.

a) We also turned the 194th pick in the 2007 draft into Carl Gunnarsson, and he's a better defenseman than Jonathan Ericsson.

b) We traded Luke Schenn, the 5th overall pick in 2008 to Philadelphia to get the 2nd overall pick in 2007 who would be the top goal scorer on the Detroit Red Wings. Not too shabby.

One team has the 3rd defensive scorer in the league on their blue line, the other team has 1 homegrown player consistently playing.

One teams all home grown blue line has an average draft position of 118 (counting Lashoff as a last pick), and one has one homegrown player on their defense. Draft position does matter because developing guys at 5th overall isnt really noteworthy. All you have to do is not screw it up and some would actually argue the Leafs did screw it up with Schenn

You don't have an all home grown blue line, your team had to go out and get two ex-Leafs to ice a team... The Detroit Red Wings hide their weak prospects until everyone's forgotten who they are.

 

[newfy]

Well, the Leafs have more bodies developed currently populating NHL rosters. Like we developed Ian White, but traded him for our captain Dion Phaneuf, how how we converted a defenseman into a forward who has a ton of potential in JVR. And in this respect, we have been better at developing defensemen than Detroit.

a) We also turned the 194th pick in the 2007 draft into Carl Gunnarsson, and he's a better defenseman than Jonathan Ericsson.

b) We traded Luke Schenn, the 5th overall pick in 2008 to Philadelphia to get the 2nd overall pick in 2007 who would be the top goal scorer on the Detroit Red Wings. Not too shabby.



You don't have an all home grown blue line, your team had to go out and get two ex-Leafs to ice a team... The Detroit Red Wings hide their weak prospects until everyone's forgotten who they are.

a) Gunnarson being better is definitely debatable. Depends what you want in a dman I would say theyre comparable. Ericcson is more physical, both log comparable minutes.

b) Luke Schenn was traded for another guy who was massively underachieving. Neither was living up to their draft spot and the trade seems to be working for both teams. Schenn isnt an example you should use to say the Leafs have great D development

And as for the last part, ya the 6 guys who are in the lineup the most on the wings blue line are all Detroit drafted and developed. White is the 7th D man on Detroit after the wings found out he isnt as good without Lidstrom. Hes still an alright dman but cant beat out any of Detroits home grown guys. CC hasnt seen the ice at all this season.

As for more Leafs being in the NHL on other teams I dont know if thats true, I guess it could be? But they dont have that many on their blue line. Maybe thats because the Leafs get rid of these guys and they have decent careers because other teams know how to get the best out of these guys better than Toronto does? Hell, Detroit even made Lebda look like an alright bottom pairing dman who they won the cup who got more than a million with Toronto. But talking about trading guys as a way of developing dmen (if thats what youre trying to say on Phaneuf) isnt relevant to this discussion

 

[BayStreetBullies*]

Yup. Ask Philly fans.

You might want to ask someone else for a more objective opinion.

 

[cupcrazyman]

Free Wallet !

 

[false bobo]

You might want to ask someone else for a more objective opinion.

No I wouldn't. I'd prefer to ask the people who watch him night in, night out.

 

[Stephen]

a) Gunnarson being better is definitely debatable. Depends what you want in a dman I would say theyre comparable. Ericcson is more physical, both log comparable minutes.

b) Luke Schenn was traded for another guy who was massively underachieving. Neither was living up to their draft spot and the trade seems to be working for both teams. Schenn isnt an example you should use to say the Leafs have great D development

And as for the last part, ya the 6 guys who are in the lineup the most on the wings blue line are all Detroit drafted and developed. White is the 7th D man on Detroit after the wings found out he isnt as good without Lidstrom. Hes still an alright dman but cant beat out any of Detroits home grown guys. CC hasnt seen the ice at all this season.

As for more Leafs being in the NHL on other teams I dont know if thats true, I guess it could be? But they dont have that many on their blue line. Maybe thats because the Leafs get rid of these guys and they have decent careers because other teams know how to get the best out of these guys better than Toronto does? Hell, Detroit even made Lebda look like an alright bottom pairing dman who they won the cup who got more than a million with Toronto. But talking about trading guys as a way of developing dmen (if thats what youre trying to say on Phaneuf) isnt relevant to this discussion

Of course it's relevant. We drafted Ian White in 2002, held him in our system till 2010 and got a superior defenseman in a trade after we got 296 NHL games out of him.

Jonathan Ericsson was from the same draft and the Wings have only gotten 262 games out of him. So how is one relevant and the other not?

If the Red Wings kids were actually any good, they would have been playing prime minutes, not being "developed". If Brendan Smith was actually the great two way defenseman he was supposed to be, I'm sure it would have been better for his development to have been playing prime minutes beside Lidstrom than being yo-yo'ed up and down.

 

[newfy]

Of course it's relevant. We drafted Ian White in 2002, held him in our system till 2010 and got a superior defenseman in a trade after we got 296 NHL games out of him.

Jonathan Ericsson was from the same draft and the Wings have only gotten 262 games out of him. So how is one relevant and the other not?

If the Red Wings kids were actually any good, they would have been playing prime minutes, not being "developed". If Brendan Smith was actually the great two way defenseman he was supposed to be, I'm sure it would have been better for his development to have been playing prime minutes beside Lidstrom than being yo-yo'ed up and down.

Babcock wanted Smith on the team full time last year but Holland said no. I still dont see how you can honestly bring Phaneuf into this but youre grasping at straws.

I'm gonna end this because I think both teams are pretty good at developing dmen. But you keep saying Schenn as an example of being good at dmen.

Can you honestly say that if you were trying to sell Dekeyser on Toronto that you would say "Look at how Luke Schenn turned out, we know how to work with young dmen.. sign with us"?

 

[Phion Keneuf]

Yeah the wings have developed a number 1 dman in Kronwall, 3 top 4 dmen in Ericcson, Kindl, and Smith, they have an undrafted free agent playing in Lashoff and a #5dman in Quincey

Why do you need D help then?

You apparently have a #1 guy, and 4 top 4 Dmen, along with a bottom pairing.

 

[Budsfan]

Elliotte Friedman ‏@FriedgeHNIC

Fresh off Iginla trade, Feaster and the Flames off to Toronto to pitch Danny DeKeyser

Patrick Caisse ‏@PatrickCaisse

Don Meehan told me that Danny DeKeyser will take his decision today but just add "by tomorrow at the latest". Hard decision I suppose. #NHL