TSN: Leafs in on Vatanen

[xxreact9]

It absolutely does as a base. Kapanen is an expansion exempt, blue chip prospect. PPG in the AHL, elite offensive tools, proven PK'er at the NHL level (playoffs, pre-season and regular season), and only 20 years old. Vatanen is a 2nd pair D, undersized, and undergoing 6 months of recovery for shoulder surgery with a 5mill contract on a team that is in an expansion draft bind.

Largely exaggerating Kapenen's strengths while under selling Vatanen. "Elite offensive tools" is just incorrect, he has 1 point in 17 NHL games. Nothing about his offensive tools are elite YET. Nothing about him is "proven" yet either. How can you be possibly be throwing the word proven out there for a 17 game sample size of his career? And then "A proven PK'er at the NHL level", he has 11 total minutes killing penalties in his entire NHL career. Your idea of "proven" is really skewed. Right now he has amassed 1 point in his NHL career, until he proves more at the NHL level his worth simply won't be near as what many leaf fans perceive it is.

On Vatanen's side, "undersized" is again aninsignificant comment as he actually plays pretty physical and hits a lot. "2nd pair D" is a bit unfair. He's a #3 on a good defense. Toronto doesn't have a good defense, he easily skates on the top pair. Vatanen averaged very close to the same ice time as Toronto's top pair, on a really significantly better defensive unit. What does that tell you?? If he's a leaf, he finishes the season 1st or 2nd in ice time.

Good, we need defensive defenceman not another offensive defenceman. We need a Manson...

Vatanen is not an offensive defender. He is a two-way defender and as of this moment he is better than any defender on the leafs. He was a starter for Anaheim's penalty killing unit on the widely considered 2nd best defense in the league. How does that equate to 1-dimension offensive defenseman again? He played in all situations on a really good D and a really good team. For a team with a bottom-5 blueline in the NHL, Vatanen 100% fills a need for them.

I hope Lou wouldn't be willing to deal Kapanen for Vatanen. Kap is a hell of a prospect. We have so many other players to offer, Kap should be seen as part of the core.

Can't have every single good asset as "untouchable". Good defenseman are hard to predict and take forever to develop - you need to give something really good up to adequately fill the need on defense.

Which is exactly why he is going nowhere unless as part of a package for a #1/1B dman which nobody is trading away anyways.

Kapanen has played 17 career NHL games, he is worth nothing remotely close to a #1 defender. Not even 4 Kapanen's would be enough for a #1 defender. He has proven virtually nothing except a few flashes in a miniscule 6 game sample size in the playoffs. Proven assets are just always worth more than unproven assets despite their upside, there is risk and risk needs to be accounted for.

Vantanen would be huge upgrade from Hunwick and Carrick.

It's going to take Kapanen and then some to get him. There are teams will be offering more and rightfully so. A proven D. Kapy on the other the other hand hasn't proven anything. He showed glimpses in limited roles

leaf fans may not like it--but Vatenan is a guy who can play big minutes and all around the ice---Kapanen has not show that much--not saying he wont be good--but Vatenan can play 20 to 25 minutes a nigh safely in the NHL--for the oilers to get guy like that it cost Hall(Larsson is more physical)

If the asking price is just Kapanen--28 other clubs will jump in on the bidding

People keep bringing up the Hall for Larsson deal like it matters, it was a 1 off deal by a desprate team that they got VERY lucky on because it happened to work out

It does matter, and why do you think its only 1 deal. Why exactly do teams never ever trade good young defenseman? Why do you think this happens? Is it some random occurrence or "luck"?

Not quite. It's because it is a fact that defenseman are much more likely to bust in the draft, especially at high picks. They additionally take much longer to develop. Once you have a ~25 year old top pairing defenseman, which may be produced only 1 or 2 times in each draft unpredictably and often in later rounds, why on earth would they trade that asset for a player you can easily get in any given top-10 in any given draft? One thing is simply far more easily obtainable than the other, that's why the difference in value exists.

 

[TorontoTrades]

I would think 17th+ would be the offer.

 

[Seras]

I don't see the leafs moving a 20 year old who is playing well. Unless it's for another 20 year old.

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

Why exactly do teams never ever trade good young defenseman? Why do you think this happens? Is it some random occurrence or "luck"?

I think that it's because the asking price is too high.

The Leafs as a team most resemble the Penguins.
They are fast and have offence to burn.
The Penguins are showing right now, with Letang out, what a fast, offensively talented team can accomplish.
I hope they don't overpay for any D-man, stick to the plan by drafting and developing in house and sign Franson at no cost other than the cap space.
Let someone else make the mistake of over paying for a second pairing defenceman.

 

[Shruggs Peterson]

Largely exaggerating Kapenen's strengths while under selling Vatanen. "Elite offensive tools" is just incorrect, he has 1 point in 17 NHL games. Nothing about his offensive tools are elite YET. Nothing about him is "proven" yet either. How can you be possibly be throwing the word proven out there for a 17 game sample size of his career? And then "A proven PK'er at the NHL level", he has 11 total minutes killing penalties in his entire NHL career. Your idea of "proven" is really skewed. Right now he has amassed 1 point in his NHL career, until he proves more at the NHL level his worth simply won't be near as what many leaf fans perceive it is.

On Vatanen's side, "undersized" is again aninsignificant comment as he actually plays pretty physical and hits a lot. "2nd pair D" is a bit unfair. He's a #3 on a good defense. Toronto doesn't have a good defense, he easily skates on the top pair. Vatanen averaged very close to the same ice time as Toronto's top pair, on a really significantly better defensive unit. What does that tell you?? If he's a leaf, he finishes the season 1st or 2nd in ice time.



Vatanen is not an offensive defender. He is a two-way defender and as of this moment he is better than any defender on the leafs. He was a starter for Anaheim's penalty killing unit on the widely considered 2nd best defense in the league. How does that equate to 1-dimension offensive defenseman again? He played in all situations on a really good D and a really good team. For a team with a bottom-5 blueline in the NHL, Vatanen 100% fills a need for them.



Can't have every single good asset as "untouchable". Good defenseman are hard to predict and take forever to develop - you need to give something really good up to adequately fill the need on defense.



Kapanen has played 17 career NHL games, he is worth nothing remotely close to a #1 defender. Not even 4 Kapanen's would be enough for a #1 defender. He has proven virtually nothing except a few flashes in a miniscule 6 game sample size in the playoffs. Proven assets are just always worth more than unproven assets despite their upside, there is risk and risk needs to be accounted for.












It does matter, and why do you think its only 1 deal. Why exactly do teams never ever trade good young defenseman? Why do you think this happens? Is it some random occurrence or "luck"?

Not quite. It's because it is a fact that defenseman are much more likely to bust in the draft, especially at high picks. They additionally take much longer to develop. Once you have a ~25 year old top pairing defenseman, which may be produced only 1 or 2 times in each draft unpredictably and often in later rounds, why on earth would they trade that asset for a player you can easily get in any given top-10 in any given draft? One thing is simply far more easily obtainable than the other, that's why the difference in value exists.

Hat's off to you for taking on a fanbase. The bolded is fantastic.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Not surprising teams are in on Vatanen

He's a good player. The shoulder injury scares me a bit though, so I'm hoping the Rangers aren't super in on him. The time to trade for him has passed, they missed their shot with the Girardi deal years ago

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Personally id like to see something around kapanen and a 1st for vatanen +

 

[LondonKendrick]

Anyone tired of Leafs/Ducks trades, both sides have pretty much broken even but don't want Vatanen, he's not piece the Leafs need and tired of giving picks to the Ducks.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Why exactly do teams never ever trade good young defenseman? Why do you think this happens? Is it some random occurrence or "luck"?

I think that it's because the asking price is too high.

The Leafs as a team most resemble the Penguins.
They are fast and have offence to burn.
The Penguins are showing right now, with Letang out, what a fast, offensively talented team can accomplish.
I hope they don't overpay for any D-man, stick to the plan by drafting and developing in house and sign Franson at no cost other than the cap space.
Let someone else make the mistake of over paying for a second pairing defenceman.

And conversely the Predators have gotten to the finals because of the depth on defense they spent years building

 

[Sysreq]

Can and should are two different things. Leafs need a defenseman, but I don't think Vatenan is it. They are a young team - no hurry to do a trade right this moment. Ducks don't want to trade J. Manson, then Leafs might as well wait than take their second choice.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Can and should are two different things. Leafs need a defenseman, but I don't think Vatenan is it. They are a young team - no hurry to do a trade right this moment. Ducks don't want to trade J. Manson, then Leafs might as well wait than take their second choice.

A lot like the leaf fans on here under rated and under sold andersen, i think they are under selling and under rating vatanen. Dmen like manson are not available pretty much anywhere.

I think vatanen would be your 2nd best dmen by the end of the year, and for his size hes actually a lot more physical than youd think, he battles for the puck as good as any dmen on the ducks and when he does get it he is a great passer, and skater which helps get the puck to your skilled forwards, and out of dangerous posistion. Got a monster shot, he is good on the pk and the pp, and on a team coached by babs i think hell allow him to open up offensively more.

I think leafs will end up with vatanen eventually, and i think the value will be fair on both sides , and after the leaf fans stop their crying and watch him play i think theyll be happy with the move , just like andersen.

As a ducks fan id love to keep him having him fowler lindholm manson as a top 4 is great but we need to imorove our forward group and we have so many good dmen that he is expendable and thats money we could use with our forward group.

I like kapanen + 1st for vatanen + welinski/pettersson/2nd

 

[Man Bear Pig]

Hat's off to you for taking on a fanbase. The bolded is fantastic.

Hats off because he took something I said out of context? The Leafs have plenty of assets. Dealing Kapanen should be a last resort when we're bursting at the seams with forward prospects. They should be used in a deal, not Kapanen.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Hats off because he took something I said out of context? The Leafs have plenty of assets. Dealing Kapanen should be a last resort when we're bursting at the seams with forward prospects. They should be used in a deal, not Kapanen.

Cept kapanen is the only 1 that is enticing enough to bring back a top 4 dmen. Edmonton traded hall to get a top 4 dmen, its not gunna be cheap. I would be shocked if kapanen isnt the piece going back in any move for a top 4, maybe jvr depending on the team... unless you guys go for a huge move and use nylander or marner for a #1.

 

[TT1]

I honestly think Vatanen is quite overrated, i mean there's a reason why Anaheim is looking to move him and not Manson.

 

[The Best Leafs Ever]

Lol, I hope they are not pursuing an offensive minded midget.

 

[A1LeafNation]

If word is out, Lou is cancelling the deal.

 

[Brock Radunske]

Erm... how do you 'know' this, exactly? He has one goal in 17 career NHL games.

He PROBABLY can slot in, but is he really a lock to be better than a guy like Kase in Anaheim?

Anton Lander put up otherworldly numbers in the AHL for years but he couldn't translate his game to the NHL level.

Kapanen is a good prospect that has a lot yet to prove. I'd suspect the Ducks will get signficiantly better offers than Kapanen and a mediocre pick.

It sounds like you're describing the Montour situation to a T.

Anyway, I will be very disappointed if the Leafs trade Kapanen + 1st for Vantanen. Its just not worth that much.

 

[Vipers31]

I honestly think Vatanen is quite overrated, i mean there's a reason why Anaheim is looking to move him and not Manson.

The reason is that we don't have another player of Manson's style, whereas we have young guys in Montour and Theodore (and to some degree even Larsson) who are ready to step in and fill those puck-moving roles, at least. It's really not that difficult to understand. Concluding (very liberal use of that word...) that he's overrated because he's not valued as highly as Manson isn't much of a reasonable thought process, either.

 

[AkiLumme]

A lot like the leaf fans on here under rated and under sold andersen, i think they are under selling and under rating vatanen. Dmen like manson are not available pretty much anywhere.

I think vatanen would be your 2nd best dmen by the end of the year, and for his size hes actually a lot more physical than youd think, he battles for the puck as good as any dmen on the ducks and when he does get it he is a great passer, and skater which helps get the puck to your skilled forwards, and out of dangerous posistion. Got a monster shot, he is good on the pk and the pp, and on a team coached by babs i think hell allow him to open up offensively more.

I think leafs will end up with vatanen eventually, and i think the value will be fair on both sides , and after the leaf fans stop their crying and watch him play i think theyll be happy with the move , just like andersen.

As a ducks fan id love to keep him having him fowler lindholm manson as a top 4 is great but we need to imorove our forward group and we have so many good dmen that he is expendable and thats money we could use with our forward group.

I like kapanen + 1st for vatanen + welinski/pettersson/2nd

I like that deal a lot actually. Might even be a slight over-pay by the Ducks. Still think the Leafs should explore other options (someone like Tanev might be a better fit), but I wouldn't be upset if they made a deal like this.

Kapanen is the name that gets thrown around the most, but any thoughts on Conner Brown? He's more of a sure thing but Kapanen has a lot more upside.

 

[4thline]

Much rather make the centrepiece the 1st rather than Kap. Kap is being slept on because of being compared to the big 3, but he's very much a guy we don't want to move.


Would love to add Vats, been on board for a couple years. Solid 3 that's under-rated defensively.

 

[AkiLumme]

Erm... how do you 'know' this, exactly? He has one goal in 17 career NHL games.

He PROBABLY can slot in, but is he really a lock to be better than a guy like Kase in Anaheim?

Anton Lander put up otherworldly numbers in the AHL for years but he couldn't translate his game to the NHL level.

Kapanen is a good prospect that has a lot yet to prove. I'd suspect the Ducks will get signficiantly better offers than Kapanen and a mediocre pick.

The difference with Lander is he didn't start putting up big numbers in the AHL until he was 22, those guys are a dime a dozen. Players who put up PPG at 20 in the AHL are quite rare. Also, Kapanen has been buried on the 4th line in his time the NHL.

 

[BB88]

May I ask in this thread why so many Leafs fans are against Vatanen
but would want Dumba?

Again, I don't think Vatanen is the perfect fit with Toronto but he would be a good/great fit with Toronto. He would play well with their forward group, fit with Bab and kills penalties. His contract should be a big help as well when the big 3 need new contracts.

 

[AkiLumme]

May I ask in this thread why so many Leafs fans are against Vatanen
but would want Dumba?

Again, I don't think Vatanen is the perfect fit with Toronto but he would be a good/great fit with Toronto. He would play well with their forward group, fit with Bab and kills penalties. His contract should be a big help as well when the big 3 need new contracts.

Because Manson lol

 

[Brock Radunske]

May I ask in this thread why so many Leafs fans are against Vatanen
but would want Dumba?

Again, I don't think Vatanen is the perfect fit with Toronto but he would be a good/great fit with Toronto. He would play well with their forward group, fit with Bab and kills penalties. His contract should be a big help as well when the big 3 need new contracts.

My three biggest issues with acquiring Vatanen are as follows;

1. He won't be 100% recovered from his shoulder surgery until 2018. The Leafs are a bubble team and can't afford to have their biggest offseason acquisition not contribute anything until half the season is gone.

2. A major shoulder surgery is scary for any defenseman, now times that by 2 for an undersized defenseman. On top of that, one of his biggest strengths is is shot and the shoulder certainly affects that.

3. He's a good defenseman but I think the Leafs can wait a year or two and get something better. Besides, if the price is even remotely comparable, I'd rather get Hamonic or Tanev, hands down.

 

[BB88]

Because Manson lol

We all know making him available makes no sense for Anaheim.

My three biggest issues with acquiring Vatanen are as follows;

1. He won't be 100% recovered from his shoulder surgery until 2018. The Leafs are a bubble team and can't afford to have their biggest offseason acquisition not contribute anything until half the season is gone.

2. A major shoulder surgery is scary for any defenseman, now times that by 2 for an undersized defenseman. On top of that, one of his biggest strengths is is shot and the shoulder certainly affects that.

3. He's a good defenseman but I think the Leafs can wait a year or two and get something better. Besides, if the price is even remotely comparable, I'd rather get Hamonic or Tanev, hands down.

I understand some of the injury concerns now but I saw the same comments even before his injury update.
Vats is 25y and signed for 3 more years, he's a longterm add to a team and Leafs aren't in all in mode next year.

I think he has a cheaper price than Hamonic/Tanev.

Vats improves the team and adds an valuable asset while you wait for a better deal.