Leafs fire Carlyle II - Carlyle Speaks (Link in post 227)

[Kessley Snipes*]

Future what? Lets see how long mr Streaky can stay hot down in Dallas before we label him anything.

Thing is, you dont hear much negative talk about players in general. The league and the media is rather conservative that way. But Phil has since he was 17 years old and first came in to the spot light been surrounded by rumours and even players and coaches saying he is difficult to work with. That he is selfish and lazy.

And here we are, 10 years later and the same things are being said again. A leopard does not change his spots. I doubt mr Dallas will change his either and will have a career of ups and downs and him disappearing when the going gets tough.

I also recall Steve Yzerman being considered a coach killer at one point.

 

[yubbers]

That´s how this place would be like if it had sound.

That would be something else

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

If Kessel is pulling his weight and putting up point-per-game seasons and the Leafs are STILL missing the playoffs, doesn't that make you question that there may be something up with his supporting cast?

But that´s the thing, he is not pulling his weight by simply putting up points. I would be fine with a little less points but a better overall game. He manages to put up points on the rush because he does not care about playing defense. Since when is that a behaviour one should applaud?

 

[Kessley Snipes*]

But that´s the thing, he is not pulling his weight by simply putting up points. I would be fine with a little less points but a better overall game. He manages to put up points on the rush because he does not care about playing defense. Since when is that a behaviour one should applaud?

Dave Feschuck over here needs to see Phil take a hit.

 

[Duke Silver]

But that´s the thing, he is not pulling his weight by simply putting up points. I would be fine with a little less points but a better overall game. He manages to put up points on the rush because he does not care about playing defense. Since when is that a behaviour one should applaud?

The point is that one individual's performance does not sink or save a team.

Parise didn't single-handedly captain New Jersey to the Stanley Cup finals, much like how Phil Kessel doesn't single-handedly make the Leafs miss the playoffs.

23 players and 3 coaches to every team.

That's what I was arguing against.

 

[indigobuffalo]

If Kessel is pulling his weight and putting up point-per-game seasons and the Leafs are STILL missing the playoffs, doesn't that make you question that there may be something up with his supporting cast?

He's a negative player, so his contributions are countered by his liabilities.

If at the end of the day you replace a player that scores 40 and costs 45 with a player that scores 25 and costs 19, that makes the team better.

How you do that is a matter of taste. Maybe Kessel can be convinced to play a better two-way game, focus less on offense. If he does that, maybe he drops to 30 goals for, 30 goals against, that's an improvement.

Doesn't mean trading him is necessary. But TBH I think the evidence is mounting that he cannot be changed.

He's a great player, but based on what I believe Shanahan's vision for the Leafs to be, I don't see Kessel as a component that this team builds on. There are Kessel-like players all around the league, but I've never seen one coached by Babcock.

 

[Kessley Snipes*]

The point is that one individual's performance does not sink or save a team.

Parise didn't single-handedly captain New Jersey to the Stanley Cup finals, much like how Phil Kessel doesn't single-handedly make the Leafs miss the playoffs.

23 players and 3 coaches to every team.

That's what I was arguing against.

No way man, Parise did it all by himself. He had zero super-star help.

 

[showtime8]

The reason that people are talking about Kessel on here is the same reason that Alex Ovechkin has gone through 5 coaches throughout his career.

When your team has to caddy to a star player that puts in a poor effort every night, then the writing is on the wall.

Randy Carlyle wasn't the sole problem with this team, but it's much easier to fire one than to trade 20. His system did seem a bit outdated, but the players didn't even listen and commit on a nightly basis.

 

[WilliamNylander]

Cant believe all the hate...

Kessel is a top 5 nhl offensive talent in the entire league. He's right there with Malkin Crosby Giroux and Stamkos. He's also the most durable out of any of them, he never even misses a game. He's straight up elite, who cares if he had a part in getting rid of randy, he was a bad coach anyways

 

[Duke Silver]

He's a negative player, so his contributions are countered by his liabilities.

If at the end of the day you replace a player that scores 40 and costs 45 with a player that scores 25 and costs 19, that makes the team better.

How you do that is a matter of taste. Maybe Kessel can be convinced to play a better two-way game, focus less on offense. If he does that, maybe he drops to 30 goals for, 30 goals against, that's an improvement.

C'mon now, plus/minus?

 

[trellaine201]

I'm a supporter of Kessel despite his misgivings but he really needs someome better to play with.

 

[cupcrazyman]

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

No way man, Parise did it all by himself. He had zero super-star help.

Kovalchuck is a very good example of a winger who changed his game to become more physical and better defensively. Such a shame he is not in the NHL any more. Amazing talent.

And of course no one player makes or breaks a team. But the ones who gets paid the most is expected to contribute the most. Kessel only play half the ice, avoid making a play if it means he could get hit, gets frustrated when he does not score but have nothing else to contribute with to ease the tension. Not a leader, not a follower either (like JVR) but some one who plays the game for him self by his own rules.

 

[showtime8]

Cant believe all the hate...

Kessel is a top 5 nhl offensive talent in the entire league. He's right there with Malkin Crosby Giroux and Stamkos. He's also the most durable out of any of them, he never even misses a game. He's straight up elite, who cares if he had a part in getting rid of randy, he was a bad coach anyways

He's durable because he hasn't taken a hit in a long time.

It's more about his overall game than his offensive game.

 

[yubbers]

He's a negative player, so his contributions are countered by his liabilities.

He plays with a 3rd line Centre and 2nd line winger that are just as bad defensively. You put Kane on Bozzy and JVRs wing. Now they're a plus line?

Cmon

 

[showtime8]

I'm a supporter of Kessel despite his misgivings but he really needs someome better to play with.

Leafs messed that up huge.

Who are you going to get to do that and what are you going to pay this person to play with him?

 

[StringsAttached]

Finally. This is a step in the right direction for sure but the road ahead will be a long one. Let's see how our boys do another a new coach, if they still suck then we basically know 100% it's a player problem and we can start moving em' out.

Long overdue.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

He plays with a 3rd line Centre and 2nd line winger that are just as bad defensively. You put Kane on Bozzy and JVRs wing. Now they're a plus line?

Cmon

Kane plays with Richards and Vertsteeg and that is not much better, if better at all, then Bozak and JVR.

 

[Jes5ant]

No way man, Parise did it all by himself. He had zero super-star help.

That you BB?

 

[WilliamNylander]

He's durable because he hasn't taken a hit in a long time.

It's more about his overall game than his offensive game.

Why does it matter? You have a player with elite offensive talent, these players don't grow on trees.

Its Nonis's fault for not surrounding him with better support...playing him with a #3 center who is a 30-40% possession player, of course Kessel will look bad

 

[WilliamNylander]

Yeah, because points is all that matters, right?

His role is to put up points. He was the best player at the olympics a few months ago.

Everyone else has to pull their weight too.

Clarkson? Bozak? the defense? This team has so so many holes and you guys are going after our only elite player...

 

[HEAVY DUTY]

 

[showtime8]

Look at who has the most points in the last four years.

You should be laughing at yourself

Would you consider Jonathan Cheechoo better than Jagr because he outscored(goals) him in back to back season in 2005 & 2006.

If you want to just take points into account, then sure Kessel has done what he's expected.

But simply saying that is all he should do, will continue the results that the Leafs have had for the last decade.

 

[WilliamNylander]

Would you consider Jonathan Cheechoo better than Jagr because he outscored(goals) him in back to back season in 2005 & 2006.

If you want to just take points into account, then sure Kessel has done what he's expected.

But simply saying that is all he should do, will continue the results that the Leafs have had for the last decade.

What a terrible comparison. Who was Cheechoo playing with and who does Kessel play with? Come on, man.

Look at how consistent Kessel is too. You're reaching so hard right now

 

[p.l.f.]

How can you play 4 lines if Kessel demands to play 25 min ?
Double shift him on the 4th line