Laine’s off-season training (see warning in post 832)

[DRW204]

Laine almost had to do the bulking he did last off-season because he was too skinny. It is as you say a long term project to build up the body but in Laine’s case I see why they did it that way. Laine also seems like a man who would never touch steroids, so he has to do it the hard way by gaining some fat as a by-product.

I think I read somewhere that 2kg of muscle is the maximum that can be achieved in an off-season. A LOT of superstars and also Finnish players have gained 7-11 kg in their first or second NHL off-season, and have kept that weight. That is not possible without illegal substances.

7-11 KG cannot be all muscle in one off season w/o PED, it is likely a combination of muscle/fat/water.

 

[Tommigun]

7-11 KG cannot be all muscle in one off season w/o PED, it is likely a combination of muscle/fat/water.

It was actually an article about the prevalence of PED usage amongst NHL athletes, which was what I was getting at. It also made a point of mentioning the rare cancers some NHL players have gotten (Koivu, Lemieux etc.) that can apparently be caused by steroids. Laine I am sure doesn’t use them so he is bound to gain some fat when bulking, which the 6kg he lost also allude to. The guy didn’t even want a cortisone shot when he was hurting.

 

[Ippenator]

Point is that Laine gained extra fat and now he's losing that extra fat. You can bulk too quickly, and a few young Jets have done that, including Laine. Roslovic did it another way. He's gaining strength without bulking excessively, and it's paying off with great speed and quickness.

Sorry, but where is your proof that Morrissey and Ehlers even bulked up too fast and it was just a mistake by them? I read the article that you linked here about Morrissey, and from that article it was easy to see, that it was really the opinion of the writer that a mistake happened. Morrissey himself was just pointing out that the mass made his game a bit challenging for a while, but he was in fact at the same time saying that his game improved still from the gained strength and was getting better during the season when the extra fat was gradually getting used away by the exhaustion from the season. At least in that interview Morrissey never said that a mistake was made, but he just pointed out that his skating was for a while stiffer and more difficult. He pointed out also how it lead to good things too. It was the writer’s own words about how great mistakes Morrissey had made and how he had learned from them. To me it seriously seems like the writer didn’t understand about the plan that there was most probably behind there. In fact seems like exactly the same kind of plan that the Jets have had for Laine.

To me this all really seems like just something that the Jets doctor and the coaches have planned. Just some people don't seem to realize that the saying: ”No pain, no gain” can really apply in many ways.

The point here is exactly that it seems that the Jets don’t believe in training with the help of steroids, which is not unfortunately the case with all NHL teams and players (I personally suspect that Lemieux, Cullen and Koivu and some others were most probably victims of steroid usage, I don't have proof of this, but just suspect it strongly). So their young players need to go through their development a bit harder way. But their health will thank them most probably later, so I really appreciate that they have most probably chosen this kind of an approach.

The right amount of that extra fat can really help not lose so easily any muscle mass during the exhausting season, when you still can’t do so much of the harder training that would keep the muscle mass better. When there is some of the extra fat that will be melting away easier first, and the body will not start consuming the muscles. This is much more crucial at the time when the players are still developing their physical weaknesses. Coming to the training camp totally ripped at that time can be quite a risk for losing muscle mass during the long and exhausting season.

 

[Romang67]

Sorry, but where is your proof that Morrissey and Ehlers even bulked up too fast and it was just a mistake by them? I read the article that you linked here about Morrissey, and from that article it was easy to see, that it was really the opinion of the writer that a mistake happened. Morrissey himself was just pointing out that the mass made his game a bit challenging for a while, but he was in fact at the same time saying that his game improved still from the gained strength and was getting better during the season when the extra fat was gradually getting used away by the exhaustion from the season. At least in that interview Morrissey never said that a mistake was made, but he just pointed out that his skating was for a while stiffer and more difficult. He pointed out also how it lead to good things too. It was the writer’s own words about how great mistakes Morrissey had made and how he had learned from them. To me it seriously seems like the writer didn’t understand about the plan that there was most probably behind there. In fact seems like exactly the same kind of plan that the Jets have had for Laine.

To me this all really seems like just something that the Jets doctor and the coaches have planned. Just some people don't seem to realize that the saying: ”No pain, no gain” can really apply in many ways.

The point here is exactly that it seems that the Jets don’t believe in training with the help of steroids, which is not unfortunately the case with all NHL teams and players (I personally suspect that Lemieux, Cullen and Koivu and some others were most probably victims of steroid usage, I don't have proof of this, but just suspect it strongly). So their young players need to go through their development a bit harder way. But their health will thank them most probably later, so I really appreciate that they have most probably chosen this kind of an approach.

The right amount of that extra fat can really help not lose so easily any muscle mass during the exhausting season, when you still can’t do so much of the harder training that would keep the muscle mass better. When there is some of the extra fat that will be melting away easier first, and the body will not start consuming the muscles. This is much more crucial at the time when the players are still developing their physical weaknesses. Coming to the training camp totally ripped at that time can be quite a risk for losing muscle mass during the long and exhausting season.

It was plainly obvious to see for people who followed the team when it happened.

 

[Ippenator]

It was plainly obvious to see for people who followed the team when it happened.

Or did they just think that they knew how things were after all going? A bit like it’s going right now with the people doubting Laine’s training. Not understanding what plan is behind the training and at the same time having very simple and straightforward expectations of player development can easily lead into that, you know.

I was asking for proof, not just some thoughts and opinions from posters here.

 

[Romang67]

Or did they just think that they knew how things were after all going? A bit like it’s going right now with the people doubting Laine’s training. Not understanding what plan is behind the training and at the same time having very simple and straightforward expectations of player development can easily lead into that, you know.

I was asking for proof, not just some thought and opinions of posters here.

What kind of proof are you expecting for a claim like that? An experiment where two identical individuals played for the team, where one gained that amount of mass and the other didn't?

Morrissey was expected to grab a spot on the team based on how he looked the season before. He instead had become so immobile that he spent the season in the AHL.

It takes a special kind of person to go and claim that a poster who actually did follow the team back then and is stating a very commonly held belief doesn't understand a presumed plan.

 

[Whileee]

It was plainly obvious to see for people who followed the team when it happened.

Exactly. I attended the development camps and training camps and it was painfully obvious that Ehlers and Morrissey had lost quickness and stamina. Last training camp Laine also looked slower and more laboured in the fitness tests than most other players, and he definitely looked more bulky and less well defined than he did the previous season.

For those fans who are not based in Winnipeg, you might not realize how much access and opportunities there are to see the players up close and in all types of drills.

 

[Board Bard]

Morrissey and Ehlers both said in interviews that they got it wrong (or words to that effect).

 

[204hockey]

wonder if theres a way to find out what they changed in his diet besides the sugar did he maybe go low carb wich i know alot of nhlers are now doing switching to more fat for energy and some even carb cycling. id really like to find out his meal plans and break downs are.

also glad hes working on speed cus once this kid is able to seperate himself a little better from attackers hes going to have time to get that shot off even more. and that makes me excited!

 

[TannedBum]

The right amount of that extra fat can really help not lose so easily any muscle mass during the exhausting season, when you still can’t do so much of the harder training that would keep the muscle mass better. When there is some of the extra fat that will be melting away easier first, and the body will not start consuming the muscles. This is much more crucial at the time when the players are still developing their physical weaknesses. Coming to the training camp totally ripped at that time can be quite a risk for losing muscle mass during the long and exhausting season.

So, we have reached level 10 in excuses. Laine doesn't have muscle mass to lose! If anything, he will gain more if he follows his diet during the season.

Hey kid, get fat so you dont lose your muscles!

 

[QnebO]

I like your confidence considering that you're dead wrong. You can't gain muscle without gaining fat especially if you're a pro athlete who has trained his whole life and you most certainly can't gain muscle while losing weight. Bodybuilders who even have a whole lot of drugs at their disposal usually start dieting 20 weeks before a show and their goal is to lose as little muscle as they can while losing fat. Do you know why they have to diet for so long? Because they gained so much fat while bulking.

You can do exercise (gym ect) while losing weight, then you dont feel very much power loss or see much power loss in results (how much you can lift ect) even if you lose 10kg of weight. You probably lose some muscle but it wont be dramatic in terms of your strenght. Trust me, I know about losing fat lol.

Some one speculated, that fat might help you not lose muscle during exhausting season. I tend to think that in hockey, fat doesnt help you very much when sporting, because body energy consumption at over 140-150 bmp is mostly and almost completely carbon hydrate, not fat. So now matter how much fat you have, youll still need to eat ton of carbonhyrdrates before hard sports event, and the fats just going to be like extra weights on you, to fast lose fats you need to do long exercies with bicycle or something at 100-140bmp. Without that game day pasta and breads, youll be like a fish on dry when on ice and youll be forced to play at max 150bmp like old man. Youll just run out of gas in matter of seconds when getting close to max pulse and max effort without carbon hydrates. No use for fat there.

Alot of body fat could be good for hunter or soldier thats going to stay days in wilderness, theyd operate at pulse that uses fat and could tap in their energy source all the time For example. And opinions are all mine and im not going to back them up with studies but you can google Suomen Urheiluliitto about carbon and fat usage and training ect.

 

[jepjepjoo]

You can do exercise (gym ect) while losing weight, then you dont feel very much power loss or see much power loss in results (how much you can lift ect) even if you lose 10kg of weight. You probably lose some muscle but it wont be dramatic in terms of your strenght. Trust me, I know about losing fat lol.

A drastic weight loss like 10kg would most certainly lower your (strenght)results if you're an athlete. It's pretty different for your average fatty who starts going to the gym while losing weight, he/she will most likely see progress in lift results even while losing weight.

 

[Halberdier]

Exactly. I attended the development camps and training camps and it was painfully obvious that Ehlers and Morrissey had lost quickness and stamina. Last training camp Laine also looked slower and more laboured in the fitness tests than most other players, and he definitely looked more bulky and less well defined than he did the previous season.

For those fans who are not based in Winnipeg, you might not realize how much access and opportunities there are to see the players up close and in all types of drills.

Nobody EVER questioned that. If the only thing Laine wanted for his life was to be effective just for one season, namely season 17-18 and no season and career after that, there is no doubt that he made a HUGE mistake with his training.

The problem with you guys are having right now is that you don't know what is the long term gain and long term plan. So far, as the plan unfolds, it seems that with Laine they tried to bulk him up first as he was skinny as a stick, and then focus more on the speed.

Disclaimer: I know absolutely nothing about the training and bulking made by Morrissey and Ehlers, so probably they made mistakes with no long term plan, but by just looking where they are now, they happen to be pretty awesome condition. So maybe, just maybe that short term loss did benefit to long term gain.

 

[grieves]

This thread has a value-o-meter that goes from 0 to 100 pretty quickly. Suddenly there's a bunch of interesting developments. Thanks to everyone.

Moral of the story: Talking is pretty much mostly usually a good thing to do if you want to get anywhere. Shutting up will keep you comfortable but unhappy (this is for you lurker).

 

[Hokinaittii]

Interesting to read Laine has lost 6 kilos during the summer while having the focus on improving speed and not so much on strength like earlier. I really hope we will see a faster, more agile and fitter Laine as soon as training camp starts.

 

[Whileee]

Interesting to read Laine has lost 6 kilos during the summer while having the focus on improving speed and not so much on strength like earlier. I really hope we will see a faster, more agile and fitter Laine as soon as training camp starts.

Couldn't agree more. I also wonder if Laine might also comment on his different approach and focusing on trimming down to speed up, like Ehlers, Morrissey and Lemieux have noted in past seasons.

 

[kunekune]

Couldn't agree more. I also wonder if Laine might also comment on his different approach and focusing on trimming down to speed up, like Ehlers, Morrissey and Lemieux have noted in past seasons.

He already did say a few lines in that article I posted.

Last summer (from a different interview) he said he focuses on strength and mass so he wouldn't be pushed around so easily. I guess that was a problem in the first season.

Now in the latest article he said that now he has enough strength and doesn't need more of it. So it's time to focus on speed.

 

[BB88]

But you see, in order to build muscle you need to add the mass that then is turned into that extra muscle. It wasn't a get fat plan. It was a get muscle plan. The side effect of that is obviously added mass, not just muscle mass. Now he is getting leaner, he has built the muscle needed. As the Jets guy said, he now has enough power, and now the focus is on quickness.

I don't know whats so difficult here.

It's the plan and they are on schedule.

I've lived and breathed gym life for the last 10+ years, I train competively.

I know very well how to add muscle/strenght and how one adds just fat.

 

[Psych0dad]

I've lived and breathed gym life for the last 10+ years, I train competively.

I know very well how to add muscle/strenght and how one adds just fat.

Then you know that one comes with the other when you have to constantly have calorie surplus when building muscle.

 

[winnipegger]

Can't believe it's already been 2 seasons of Laine. End of the teenage era and hopefully the start of a dominant player. Always have to remember that Tarasenko didn't score 40 until he was 24, Ovechkin just started in the NHL at 20. What Laine did from 18 - 19 years old (80 goals combined) is almost unprecedented as far as I know.

 

[BB88]

Then you know that one comes with the other when you have to constantly have calorie surplus when building muscle.

I know in general Finland has lived too much with the old school style regarding muscle building but luckily it has started to change in the last few years.
Of course there are still old school believers left.

There should be no problems if some want to say Laine propably overdid the mass phase last season but has fixed it to this summer.
I'm just happy he's developed his training this summer and we should expect better results.

 

[Psych0dad]

I know in general Finland has lived too much with the old school style regarding muscle building but luckily it has started to change in the last few years.
Of course there are still old school believers left.

There should be no problems if some want to say Laine propably overdid the mass phase last season but has fixed it to this summer.
I'm just happy he's developed his training this summer and we should expect better results.

So you just want to call it failed training, because you started from that claim and don't want to allow information to sway you from it.

You can call it what you want.

From the publically available information it appears it's been the plan of the athlete and the team to proceed this way with these steps.

I have to go with them on that, since there has been steady developing and now we are expecting more of it due to this stage of his plan.

The development to me is evidence of successful plan.

 

[QuietContrarian]

Sorry, but where is your proof that Morrissey and Ehlers even bulked up too fast and it was just a mistake by them? I read the article that you linked here about Morrissey, and from that article it was easy to see, that it was really the opinion of the writer that a mistake happened. Morrissey himself was just pointing out that the mass made his game a bit challenging for a while, but he was in fact at the same time saying that his game improved still from the gained strength and was getting better during the season when the extra fat was gradually getting used away by the exhaustion from the season. At least in that interview Morrissey never said that a mistake was made, but he just pointed out that his skating was for a while stiffer and more difficult. He pointed out also how it lead to good things too. It was the writer’s own words about how great mistakes Morrissey had made and how he had learned from them. To me it seriously seems like the writer didn’t understand about the plan that there was most probably behind there. In fact seems like exactly the same kind of plan that the Jets have had for Laine.

To me this all really seems like just something that the Jets doctor and the coaches have planned. Just some people don't seem to realize that the saying: ”No pain, no gain” can really apply in many ways.

The point here is exactly that it seems that the Jets don’t believe in training with the help of steroids, which is not unfortunately the case with all NHL teams and players (I personally suspect that Lemieux, Cullen and Koivu and some others were most probably victims of steroid usage, I don't have proof of this, but just suspect it strongly). So their young players need to go through their development a bit harder way. But their health will thank them most probably later, so I really appreciate that they have most probably chosen this kind of an approach.

The right amount of that extra fat can really help not lose so easily any muscle mass during the exhausting season, when you still can’t do so much of the harder training that would keep the muscle mass better. When there is some of the extra fat that will be melting away easier first, and the body will not start consuming the muscles. This is much more crucial at the time when the players are still developing their physical weaknesses. Coming to the training camp totally ripped at that time can be quite a risk for losing muscle mass during the long and exhausting season.

Ehlers said himself to Danish media, he struggled with the extra weight he gained, and had to find new ways to remain as mobile and quick.

 

[BB88]

So you just want to call it failed training, because you started from that claim and don't want to allow information to sway you from it.

You can call it what you want.

From the publically available information it appears it's been the plan of the athlete and the team to proceed this way with these steps.

I have to go with them on that, since there has been steady developing and now we are expecting more of it due to this stage of his plan.

The development to me is evidence of successful plan.

I'm saying why does some need to insist everything has gone perfect with Laines development under Rautala and push the fault to Jets?

 

[Psych0dad]

I'm saying why does some need to insist everything has gone perfect with Laines development under Rautala and push the fault to Jets?

He has 80 goals as a teen with low icetime. If I were to say his development has failed, there aren't any players whose development didn't fail if that is the standard.

Leads the team in 5 on 5 +/- after two teenage seasons. Hard to find the failure there.

Requires "eye test", a subjective ranking based on the persons individual preference to find the failure. It's not convincing to me when reality shows otherwise.

You can have your opinion, I'm just explaining why I can't agree with it.

 

[Whileee]

He has 80 goals as a teen with low icetime. If I were to say his development has failed, there aren't any players whose development didn't fail if that is the standard.

Leads the team in 5 on 5 +/- after two teenage seasons. Hard to find the failure there.

Requires "eye test", a subjective ranking based on the persons individual preference to find the failure. It's not convincing to me when reality shows otherwise.

You can have your opinion, I'm just explaining why I can't agree with it.

On ice production and fitness are not identical concepts. I think his first two seasons were outstanding. My feeling is that he can be even better with more ice time if he's lighter and fitter this season.