Laine’s off-season training (see warning in post 832)

[Whileee]

Obviously no. I was just saying it could have been muscle added with the weight and he wasn’t used to the extra weight yet. Only thing I was getting at.

He looked overweight to me last year, like he had some baby fat, compared to his rookie season. That's not uncommon when a teenager stops their big growth spurt years.

The fact that he's been advised to change his diet and lost 6 kg indicates that he had extra non-muscle weight that he needed to shed. I'm glad he's done that. If he's lighter and stronger, that would be great.

 

[Whileee]

But you see, in order to build muscle you need to add the mass that then is turned into that extra muscle. It wasn't a get fat plan. It was a get muscle plan. The side effect of that is obviously added mass, not just muscle mass. Now he is getting leaner, he has built the muscle needed. As the Jets guy said, he now has enough power, and now the focus is on quickness.

I don't know whats so difficult here.

It's the plan and they are on schedule.

Wait, what physiological process makes it necessary to gain non muscle weight that then gets "turned into muscle"?

 

[Psych0dad]

Wait, what physiological process makes it necessary to gain non muscle weight that then gets "turned into muscle"?

The human body. You can't create muscle without the fuel for it.

This is why people bulk up with protein. You need to have the fuel to burn and add muscle. To work on it, you need fuel.

You don't just eat muscle and absorb it into your muscle.

 

[Psych0dad]

Building muscle mass requires an intake of fuel. Some of that fuel doesn't get converted to muscle growth, some go to the storage. He is dropping storage mow that he got the muscle to move

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Laine doesn't need mass in my opinion. He needs strength.

 

[Whileee]

The human body. You can't create muscle without the fuel for it.

This is why people bulk up with protein. You need to have the fuel to burn and add muscle. To work on it, you need fuel.

You don't just eat muscle and absorb it into your muscle.

Ummmm... that is completely unscientific.

 

[Whileee]

Building muscle mass requires an intake of fuel. Some of that fuel doesn't get converted to muscle growth, some go to the storage. He is dropping storage mow that he got the muscle to move

Right. He was storing the extra weight in fat, which is counterproductive. Fat cells store fat, not proteins for muscle. Now I think we are into the absurd situation of claiming that the best way to put on lean muscle mass is to add fat and then use the energy stored in the fat for future conversion into muscle. The mind boggles...

 

[kunekune]

Right. He was storing the extra weight in fat, which is counterproductive. Fat cells store fat, not proteins for muscle. Now I think we are into the absurd situation of claiming that the best way to put on lean muscle mass is to add fat and then use the energy stored in the fat for future conversion into muscle. The mind boggles...

Well it is a very common misconception that extra fat turns into muscle. One that you must have heard before so it shouldn't boggle your mind.

But if you actually know something about training and human body you should know that it is impossible to gain muscle without gaining fat. Unless the person is a complete newbie or is using HGH. Gaining muscle means that you need to have more calorie intake than your body is using. Some of the extra calories turn into muscle some turn in to fat. How much turns in to muscle and how much turns in to fat depends on a lot of things like training, genetics etc.

 

[Halberdier]

Ummmm... that is completely unscientific.

It's not rocket science, really:

How To Bulk Up Fast: Maximize The Muscle Building Process

Of course a hockey player shouldn't be like Arnold Schwarzenegger -- that would be counterproductive -- but they do need certain amount of muscle mass, especially ones like super skinny Laine more than a year ago. Currently Laine needs no more muscle mass, AFAIK, but his situation was really different last year.

To maximize muscle growth you cannot stay lean all the time during that process, unless using illegal substances, doping. They don't generally use those at Finland, sorry. Not for professional athletes at least not that much.

Due to almost non-existing testing in NHL there have been some cases where you can pretty much know something has been used when you look at the neck area of certain players, and how they gain that during just one summer. Also some cancers are really rare, unless you use certain substances...

Ps. And by the way, nobody told that Laine had 6 kg more fat a year ago. I suspect that great deal of that 6 kg was water and "waste", like suggested in that article I linked for you.

 

[Duke749]

But you don’t gain fat to gain muscle. You gain muscle to gain muscle. Now he may have put on extra weight while trying to put on muscle but that’s why he’s altered his diet so he can be leaner.

 

[Whileee]

Well it is a very common misconception that extra fat turns into muscle. One that you must have heard before so it shouldn't boggle your mind.

But if you actually know something about training and human body you should know that it is impossible to gain muscle without gaining fat. Unless the person is a complete newbie or is using HGH. Gaining muscle means that you need to have more calorie intake than your body is using. Some of the extra calories turn into muscle some turn in to fat. How much turns in to muscle and how much turns in to fat depends on a lot of things like training, genetics etc.

So much wrong in this post. Please read more about physiology.

Let's just face it. Laine ingested more calories than he expended and he gained extra fat. Then he ingested fewer calories than he was expending and lost some extra fat.

Fat cells remain fat cells, they don't turn into muscle cells, and vice-versa.

It's possible to gain muscle without gaining fat. In fact, that's the goal of most strength training.

 

[Whileee]

It's not rocket science, really:

How To Bulk Up Fast: Maximize The Muscle Building Process

Of course a hockey player shouldn't be like Arnold Schwarzenegger -- that would be counterproductive -- but they do need certain amount of muscle mass, especially ones like super skinny Laine more than a year ago. Currently Laine needs no more muscle mass, AFAIK, but his situation was really different last year.

To maximize muscle growth you cannot stay lean all the time during that process, unless using illegal substances, doping. They don't generally use those at Finland, sorry. Not for professional athletes at least not that much.

Due to almost non-existing testing in NHL there have been some cases where you can pretty much know something has been used when you look at the neck area of certain players, and how they gain that during just one summer. Also some cancers are really rare, unless you use certain substances...

Ps. And by the way, nobody told that Laine had 6 kg more fat a year ago. I suspect that great deal of that 6 kg was water and "waste", like suggested in that article I linked for you.

He ate less sugar to lose water and "waste"? Maybe he lost a bit of water weight, but then he'll gain it right back unless he had renal problems. He probably mostly lost fat when he reduced his caloric intake.

 

[kunekune]

So much wrong in this post. Please read more about physiology.

Don't know if I should even respond anymore but I will try one last time.

Let's just face it. Laine ingested more calories than he expended and he gained extra fat. Then he ingested fewer calories than he was expending and lost some extra fat.

That's exactly what I said. Laine ingested more calories than he expended and he gained MUSCLE AND FAT. And yes then he ingested fewer calories than he was expending and lost FAT AND MUSCLE.

You should also bear in mind that Laine had meal plans made for him last summer and this summer. It's not like he himself decided to eat a lot more than he was told.

Fat cells remain fat cells, they don't turn into muscle cells, and vice-versa.

That's exactly what I said. I said it's a common MISCONCEPTION that fat turns into muscle. It's actually so common MISCONCEPTION that you hear it everywhere. So common in fact that it shouldn't boggle anyones mind if he hears it.

It's possible to gain muscle without gaining fat. In fact, that's the goal of most strength training.

This is also a very common MISCONCEPTION among people who don't train and have no idea about physiology. It's actually so common that it shouldn't boggle my mind when I hear someone claiming this.

Yes, that is the goal of most strength training. But it is an impossible goal unless you are a starter in the gym or you are using steroids.

That is the reason why bodybuilders have bulking period and cutting period.

You can start educating yourself by reading this: The Top 10 Rules Of Successful Clean Bulking!

I can even copy the first part of the article.

"Unless you are carrying a large amount of fat or you are just starting to weight train you are not going to lose fat while trying to gain muscle. If your primary goal is to gain muscle then focus on that."

 

[Duke749]

@kunekune You need to be a bit more clear. It didn’t sound like you were talking about the same thing as whileee. It appears y’all are on the same page though.

 

[kunekune]

@kunekune You need to be a bit more clear. It didn’t sound like you were talking about the same thing as whileee. It appears y’all are on the same page though.

Not really. He is claiming that you can gain muscle without gaining fat. Which is not true. Everyone who has been through at least two bulking and cutting periods should know this. Every book you read about physiology tells that.

Gaining muscle mass and gaining fat goes hand-in-hand. Also losing fat and losing muscle goes hand-in-hand. With strength training you'll try to maximize muscle gains and minimize fat gain. This is basic knowledge.

 

[Duke749]

Not really. He is claiming that you can gain muscle without gaining fat. Which is not true. Everyone who has been through at least two bulking and cutting periods should know this. Every book you read about physiology tells that.

Gaining muscle mass and gaining fat goes hand-in-hand. Also losing fat and losing muscle goes hand-in-hand. With strength training you'll try to maximize muscle gains and minimize fat gain. This is basic knowledge.

Ok

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

That photo clarifies things for me! I thought Rautala's gym was run out of an old beat up garage.

Hey, Roslovic trains in a barn.
Physical education

 

[Halberdier]

He ate less sugar to lose water and "waste"? Maybe he lost a bit of water weight, but then he'll gain it right back unless he had renal problems. He probably mostly lost fat when he reduced his caloric intake.

He probably lost great deal of that extra 6 kg weight already during the season. And yes, bulking had to be over by then (and even before), so his caloric intake was most probably greatly reduced during the season when compared to summer training period.

Waste is better explained in that link, but I got it is mostly, ahem, the end product of food.

Obviously you have water (and should have water) and "waste" all the time in the "system", but when bulking and some time after that you will have more of that.

 

[jepjepjoo]

So much wrong in this post. Please read more about physiology.

Let's just face it. Laine ingested more calories than he expended and he gained extra fat. Then he ingested fewer calories than he was expending and lost some extra fat.

Fat cells remain fat cells, they don't turn into muscle cells, and vice-versa.

It's possible to gain muscle without gaining fat. In fact, that's the goal of most strength training.

I like your confidence considering that you're dead wrong. You can't gain muscle without gaining fat especially if you're a pro athlete who has trained his whole life and you most certainly can't gain muscle while losing weight. Bodybuilders who even have a whole lot of drugs at their disposal usually start dieting 20 weeks before a show and their goal is to lose as little muscle as they can while losing fat. Do you know why they have to diet for so long? Because they gained so much fat while bulking.

 

[Gordian Knot]

He cut that Amish beard and got 6 kgs leaner, big deal?

 

[Tommigun]

But you don’t gain fat to gain muscle. You gain muscle to gain muscle. Now he may have put on extra weight while trying to put on muscle but that’s why he’s altered his diet so he can be leaner.

You can’t gain muscle without gaining mass as well. Not without using illegal substances. Laine losing 6kg proves he’s clean, not that his training was mismanaged.

Then again Jets management didn’t ask Laine to add an extra 6kg just to lose it, it’s just what happens. Part of it is also probably figuring out what works because he’s so young, they can’t know beforehand exactly how his body will respond.

 

[Jeti]

So much wrong in this post. Please read more about physiology.

Let's just face it. Laine ingested more calories than he expended and he gained extra fat. Then he ingested fewer calories than he was expending and lost some extra fat.

Fat cells remain fat cells, they don't turn into muscle cells, and vice-versa.

It's possible to gain muscle without gaining fat. In fact, that's the goal of most strength training.

Not if you want to gain it fast. Growing muscle is your body's adaptation to the stress of weight lifting but it only happens with a caloric surplus, otherwise your body uses the calories for things like your brain, breathing, your heart, etc. Body fat is a future supply of calories. So keeping a small amount of extra fat helps bulking because it means your body can maximize recovery every time since there's less risk of under eating.

But that amount is like 10-12% body fat which is still pretty slim by the average person's standards. It's only for really skinny people or body builders after a cut (when you can see all the veins and shit) that it's extremely hard to put on muscle without fat.

 

[DRW204]

So much wrong in this post. Please read more about physiology.

Let's just face it. Laine ingested more calories than he expended and he gained extra fat. Then he ingested fewer calories than he was expending and lost some extra fat.

Fat cells remain fat cells, they don't turn into muscle cells, and vice-versa.

It's possible to gain muscle without gaining fat. In fact, that's the goal of most strength training.

it's possible but it's tough as shit w/o PEDs. you have to be in a caloric surplus to gain muscle mass, not necessarily strength. Caloric surplus will lead to gain of body fat - how much of it depends on how much you eat beyond maintenance calories. the goal of strength training should be to build strength, not muscle mass. you need to eat in a caloric surplus to gain muscle mass and a lesser extent strength. however in my experience, you can get by with a minimal surplus(if any - you can do calorie or carb cycling where your net calories is maintenance by the end of the training week) for strength

 

[Whileee]

Point is that Laine gained extra fat and now he's losing that extra fat. You can bulk too quickly, and a few young Jets have done that, including Laine. Roslovic did it another way. He's gaining strength without bulking excessively, and it's paying off with great speed and quickness.

 

[Tommigun]

Point is that Laine gained extra fat and now he's losing that extra fat. You can bulk too quickly, and a few young Jets have done that, including Laine. Roslovic did it another way. He's gaining strength without bulking excessively, and it's paying off with great speed and quickness.

Laine almost had to do the bulking he did last off-season because he was too skinny. It is as you say a long term project to build up the body but in Laine’s case I see why they did it that way. Laine also seems like a man who would never touch steroids, so he has to do it the hard way by gaining some fat as a by-product.

I think I read somewhere that 2kg of muscle is the maximum that can be achieved in an off-season. A LOT of superstars and also Finnish players have gained 7-11 kg in their first or second NHL off-season, and have kept that weight. That is not possible without illegal substances.