OT: LA Angels of Anaheim Baseball Discussion (continued again)

[Anaheim4ever]

Angels with the #7 Farm System via Keith Law

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

A comparable situation would be if the Oilers had a top 10 farm system atm
Oilers have only recently fired their Dipoto aka Chiarelli.

Farm system don't really guarantee much.... hopefully for the angels sake some of those players pan out and give trout a little support.... I just hate seeing such a good player miss the playoffs every year. Yankees have been pretty lucky with their prospect pool. I don't recall the angels having that great of a prospect pool... shocked that people have it in the top 10.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

^^While the farm is promising, it is severely lacking high end pitching talent. They will need to spend some money to bring in front of the rotation pitchers if they want to be championship contenders soon

Therein lies the difference between DiPoto and Eppler. DiPoto put a premium on pitching. What's lost about the DiPoto Era was that Arte's involvement robbed DiPoto of first round picks for two consecutive seasons b/c he signed 1B Pujols and then OF Hamilton. DiPoto wanted to keep P Grienke, but Arte wanted the long ball instead. The Angels' farm team already sucked when DiPoto took over. So not having first round picks until his 3rd season as GM is harsh. In his third season, DiPoto drafted P Newcomb. Now, remember, DiPoto made lots of trades to acquire pitching such as Skaggs, Heaney, Tropeano, and Santiago. Relief pitcher Middleton is also a DiPoto draft pick. (Traded OF Trumbo to Arizona for P Skaggs and P Santiago, IIRC. Traded 2B Kendrick for P Heaney. C Conger traded to the Astros to get P Tropeano.) In 2014, DiPoto traded prospects 2B Lindsay and relief closer RJ Alvarez for closer P Street and prospect P Gott.

When Eppler took over, he did the exact opposite of DiPoto. Eppler traded away pitching for hitting. I went over this already. P Newcomb fetched SS Simba. We sent two pitchers for OF Upton. After three seasons, that hitting hasn't gotten the Angels over .500 once. Now, we're relying on bargain starting pitching to save us in Harvey, Cahill, etc...

Drafts - 1st rounders
DiPoto
2012 - no 1st round draft pick (lost b/c signed FA 1B Pujols)
2013 - no 1st round draft pick (lost b/c signed FA OF Hamilton)
2014 - P Newcomb
2015 - C Ward

Eppler
2016 - C Thaiss (8th best prospect)
2017 - OF Adell (1st)
2018 - OF Adams (6th)

It helps to have first round draft picks. We have two pitchers in the Angels' top-10 prospects. Canning, 2017 second rounder (an Eppler draft) and Suarez, a 2014 int'l FA signing - I presume, under DiPoto.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Angels with the #7 Farm System via Keith Law

It helps having a first round pick. 2018 OF Adams ranks 6th in the Angels top-30 prospects. Also, Eppler took great advantage of the Braves' international prospects faux pas that netted two SS's, Maitan and Soto. Maitan is ranked 15th and Soto is ranked 19th. Those two are great signings as the Braves were forced to release them from their system for foul international play. Seriously, great job for Eppler on accruing a lot of talent!

7th farm team overall, but still lacking talented pitching. Only two pitchers ranked in the top-10 (from Angels.com). One of those pitchers is from DiPoto era. This is the one area that Eppler needs to improve upon b/c there's not enough relief in sight for starting pitchers at the MLB level.

 

[MMC]

Therein lies the difference between DiPoto and Eppler. DiPoto put a premium on pitching. What's lost about the DiPoto Era was that Arte's involvement robbed DiPoto of first round picks for two consecutive seasons b/c he signed 1B Pujols and then OF Hamilton. DiPoto wanted to keep P Grienke, but Arte wanted the long ball instead. The Angels' farm team already sucked when DiPoto took over. So not having first round picks until his 3rd season as GM is harsh. In his third season, DiPoto drafted P Newcomb. Now, remember, DiPoto made lots of trades to acquire pitching such as Skaggs, Heaney, Tropeano, and Santiago. Relief pitcher Middleton is also a DiPoto draft pick. (Traded OF Trumbo to Arizona for P Skaggs and P Santiago, IIRC. Traded 2B Kendrick for P Heaney. C Conger traded to the Astros to get P Tropeano.) In 2014, DiPoto traded prospects 2B Lindsay and relief closer RJ Alvarez for closer P Street and prospect P Gott.

When Eppler took over, he did the exact opposite of DiPoto. Eppler traded away pitching for hitting. I went over this already. P Newcomb fetched SS Simba. We sent two pitchers for OF Upton. After three seasons, that hitting hasn't gotten the Angels over .500 once. Now, we're relying on bargain starting pitching to save us in Harvey, Cahill, etc...

Drafts - 1st rounders
DiPoto
2012 - no 1st round draft pick (lost b/c signed FA 1B Pujols)
2013 - no 1st round draft pick (lost b/c signed FA OF Hamilton)
2014 - P Newcomb
2015 - C Ward

Eppler
2016 - C Thaiss (8th best prospect)
2017 - OF Adell (1st)
2018 - OF Adams (6th)

It helps to have first round draft picks. We have two pitchers in the Angels' top-10 prospects. Canning, 2017 second rounder (an Eppler draft) and Suarez, a 2014 int'l FA signing - I presume, under DiPoto.

Well put, and it’s very telling that all these year’s later, pitching is still our hole with no solution in sight. As fans of this team, with the payroll and assets they have, we ought to expect our front office to do a hell of a lot more to upgrade the pitching than they have during all of the Trout years.

 

[MMC]

What separates the Ducks and the Angels for me, and why I have so much more affinity for them, is that despite being a playoff team for six years, the first year it looks unlikely, the coach is fired, and the GM and owners take blame for the solution and release a letter stating so and that they are committed to making the changes to get us back to being contenders. Meanwhile, the Angels, who have not won a playoff game since 2009, and have a hell of a lot more pressure to win games since they have a player like Trout, never release any type of statement like this, never have anyone lose their job, never hold anyone or themselves accountable for the mistakes, never issue an apology, or any type of message to the fans and season ticket holders, and never admit the flaws in the team. They just say the same bullshit every damn year about how "we believe in our group" and that "we are confident we will be successful next season". The former is a team and organization that is respectable. The latter is an organization that should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[TheGoodShepard1]

Well put, and it’s very telling that all these year’s later, pitching is still our hole with no solution in sight. As fans of this team, with the payroll and assets they have, we ought to expect our front office to do a hell of a lot more to upgrade the pitching than they have during all of the Trout years.

This is why I haven't gotten into the Eppler vs. DiPoto debate on this board much (although maybe I'll respond to some of the posts in here at some point): the problem starts at the very top and Arte drives me nuts to no end. He's actually the exception to my rule of trying not to question the desire and want to win at the top of the food chain.

He tells me he wants to be treated like a big-market owner, yet skirts the responsibility of it and he's damn lucky he gets away with it. You can't sit here and tell me we're a large-market team and how we bring 3,000,000 fans to the ball park every year and how you have one of the best TV deals in baseball...and then turn around and financially hamstring TWO different general managers because you can't admit that you f***ed up on the Albert contract and won't spend to the luxury tax. Could you imagine if the Steinbrenners did that with Ellsbury or the Red Sox with Carl Crawford or Ricketts with Jason Heyward? There would be protests EVERYWHERE and talk radio would be going after them non-stop.

 

[MMC]

This is why I haven't gotten into the Eppler vs. DiPoto debate on this board much (although maybe I'll respond to some of the posts in here at some point): the problem starts at the very top and Arte drives me nuts to no end. He's actually the exception to my rule of trying not to question the desire and want to win at the top of the food chain.

He tells me he wants to be treated like a big-market owner, yet skirts the responsibility of it and he's damn lucky he gets away with it. You can't sit here and tell me we're a large-market team and how we bring 3,000,000 fans to the ball park every year and how you have one of the best TV deals in baseball...and then turn around and financially hamstring TWO different general managers because you can't admit that you ****ed up on the Albert contract and won't spend to the luxury tax. Could you imagine if the Steinbrenners did that with Ellsbury or the Red Sox with Carl Crawford or Ricketts with Jason Heyward? There would be protests EVERYWHERE and talk radio would be going after them non-stop.

Well said, though this board thinks I just hate Eppler and everything he does, my real issues will always be with the ownership. With the kind of revenue and payroll we have the access to, in the market we're in, and how Arte seems to want to be as "big market" as he can, considering the name change and LA move rumors, he had better the hell back that up with his ownership decisions, and he isn't doing so.

 

[MMC]

Says it all right here. The team is in deep shit.

 

[TheGoodShepard1]

Anyway, this is still a great day, probably one of the top 5 days in my life as an Angels fan. An inner-circle Hall of Famer, an all-timer, playing his entire career with one team is no insignificant achievement, especially for this franchise, which has never actually done it.

Also have to echo the sentiments of @Hockey Duckie as to just whom Mike Trout is. In this era of baseball, his brand of loyalty and a one-club man is as old school as it gets. As low maintenance a superstar as there is in sports, we are incredibly lucky to have him.

 

[Deuce22]

Biggest Angel problem IMO is having the Astros in their division. They have created a sustainable winning model there and it will be tough to get into the playoffs as anything other than a wild card. BTW, now that Trout has signed an extension, I'm not sure he'd be cool with the "blow it up except for him and Ohtani" route that one here is advocating.

 

[MMC]

Biggest Angel problem IMO is having the Astros in their division. They have created a sustainable winning model there and it will be tough to get into the playoffs as anything other than a wild card. BTW, now that Trout has signed an extension, I'm not sure he'd be cool with the "blow it up except for him and Ohtani" route that one here is advocating.

Him signing long term means he trusts and believes in what we want to do in the future. If we want to go that route, he'll be in full support.

 

[Anaheim4ever]

Farm system don't really guarantee much.... hopefully for the angels sake some of those players pan out and give trout a little support.... I just hate seeing such a good player miss the playoffs every year. Yankees have been pretty lucky with their prospect pool. I don't recall the angels having that great of a prospect pool... shocked that people have it in the top 10.

Its been under looked cause of how bad it got. If the Yankees & Angels switched farm systems there would be more calling it top 10, teams seem to get the benefit of the doubt if they've produced alot of talent. Some are probably still low on the Angels cause they haven't produced much in a while

When the Angels had a top 5 farm system the following players panned out for at least a few years: Weaver, Morales, Napoli, Aybar, Santana, Saunders, Izturis, Kendrick, Kotchman.
With Adenhart we'll never know if he would have panned out or not but he was a top pitching prospect in MLB when he died in 2009.

Back in the late 90s into the 2000s the Angels once had one of the best international scouting presences but then that scandal regarding players being signed for cheap & taken advantage of that the Angels had a few people involved in it led to alot of scouts being fired. Guys like Morales, Ervin Santana, Aybar, Segura were some of their international prospects that panned out.

 

[ADHB]

Biggest Angel problem IMO is having the Astros in their division. They have created a sustainable winning model there and it will be tough to get into the playoffs as anything other than a wild card. BTW, now that Trout has signed an extension, I'm not sure he'd be cool with the "blow it up except for him and Ohtani" route that one here is advocating.

The Astros will soon have to start paying the young core that got them to where they are. They’re not going to be able to keep them all, and may lose most of them. It’s no guarantee they’ll maintain that level of success going forward, especially since they generally are a lower budget team. They do have some big time prospects though.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

The Astros will soon have to start paying the young core that got them to where they are. They’re not going to be able to keep them all, and may lose most of them. It’s no guarantee they’ll maintain that level of success going forward, especially since they generally are a lower budget team. They do have some big time prospects though.

The fact that they do have big time prospects and will keep it funneling is scary. The Angels were like that once, until... we were forced onto GM Reagins who ruined our scouting. bleah. BTW, that's a dig a Sosh b/c Sosh was controlling Reagins.

 

[terranraida]

Trout signing is almost better than when my little league team got to walk around angel stadium and then my dad won game tickets and they put us behind home plate.


Almost.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Biggest Angel problem IMO is having the Astros in their division. They have created a sustainable winning model there and it will be tough to get into the playoffs as anything other than a wild card. BTW, now that Trout has signed an extension, I'm not sure he'd be cool with the "blow it up except for him and Ohtani" route that one here is advocating.

The Astros might lose Cole and Verlander after this season their window of dominance is closing to where they will come back down a little

 

[Deuce22]

The Astros might lose Cole and Verlander after this season their window of dominance is closing to where they will come back down a little

They have loads of great arms coming through the farm system. Didn't even care that they are losing Keuchel and Morton.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

They have loads of great arms coming through the farm system. Didn't even care that they are losing Keuchel and Morton.

Yeah but eventually it adds up they aren't going to hit on all those young guys

 

[Deuce22]

Yeah but eventually it adds up they aren't going to hit on all those young guys

That's why the best organizations are good at drafting and developing pitching. Something the Angels ignored for years. Acquiring talent through trades and free agency is not a long term solution.

 

[MMC]

That's why the best organizations are good at drafting and developing pitching. Something the Angels ignored for years. Acquiring talent through trades and free agency is not a long term solution.

We haven’t even acquired pitching talent through free agency/trades. This team is and has been desperate for talented pitching for a decade now.

 

[Deuce22]

We haven’t even acquired pitching talent through free agency/trades. This team is and has been desperate for talented pitching for a decade now.

Greinke, Street, C.J. Wilson, Blanton, Vargas, Haren. Admittedly, not great talent acquisition but this has been the route they have chosen pre-Eppler.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Greinke, Street, C.J. Wilson, Blanton, Vargas, Haren. Admittedly, not great talent acquisition but this has been the route they have chosen pre-Eppler.

We traded for young pitching in Skaggs, Santiago, Tropeano, and Heaney. I think we got Gott in the Street trade too.

We should have kept Greinke. Keeping Greinke instead of signing FA Hamilton would have meant the Angels keep the 2013 first round pick.

 

[Anaheim4ever]

We traded for young pitching in Skaggs, Santiago, Tropeano, and Heaney. I think we got Gott in the Street trade too.

We should have kept Greinke. Keeping Greinke instead of signing FA Hamilton would have meant the Angels keep the 2013 first round pick.

Maybe the GM didn't do a good enough job convincing Arte to let him spend on keeping Greinke.
Eppler has convinced Arte & Trout quite alot on his plan, Reagins & Dipoto were both spend-a-holics heavily influenced by what new FA toy that Arte/Scisocia wanted. Dipoto might have come across as a slick 'used car salesman' to Arte while Eppler is the nerd with the sabremetrics & might be more convincing cause thats something they've never had.
If it was Eppler that convinced Arte to let the team move on from Scioscia, he's got some skills.

 

[MMC]

Maybe the GM didn't do a good enough job convincing Arte to let him spend on keeping Greinke.
Eppler has convinced Arte & Trout quite alot on his plan, Reagins & Dipoto were both spend-a-holics heavily influenced by what new FA toy that Arte/Scisocia wanted. Dipoto might have come across as a slick 'used car salesman' to Arte while Eppler is the nerd with the sabremetrics & might be more convincing cause thats something they've never had.
If it was Eppler that convinced Arte to let the team move on from Scioscia, he's got some skills.

You realize Scioscia stepped down right?