Rumor: Kyle Dubas travels to to NYC to take in the flames vs rangers game. Why?

[Ziggdiezan]

The add needed with Hanifin for Nylander would give you whiplash.

Yup no interest in Hanifin at all. He has received some of the highest levels of sheltering in the NHL and Carolina realized he wasn't improving in his own zone at all so sold before the rest of the league payed too much attention.

 

[BAM]

Yeah but the last + wouldn't be a huge piece. The core of the deal is Jost and Timmins.


Jost is a hefty price to pay. As a young cost controlled asset he has lots of value. There's legitimate concern over Timmins health and IMO Meloche makes more sense for the Leafs as a big mean shutdown defender with offensive upside for them.


But Nylander would be a great add to our secondary scoring and an even better add to the PP for us. He's worth the price.


The big concern with Nylander is money. At 8M the Avs simply cant do it as the backlash of that contract would put us in a world of hurt soon after trying to get Rantanen signed.


If hes willing to come off that 8M tag on a new team then perhaps something could work. But as it is now I dont see the Avs or anyone paying the price tag for Nylander in trade or contract negotiations.

Rantanen looks like he'll cost $9+ million with how he's playing.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

I think its fair to say when a player is refusing to sign the contracts put in front of them after multiple discussions, we can shift away from the 'cost-controlled' piece. All semantics in the end though.

Looks like you have a thing for "multiple definitions". There are widely accepted definitions, and your own pedantic definitions such as what 'cost-controlled' means that you use to pointlessly nitpick. Nylander is quite clearly cost controlled. Look no further than the fact that he isn't playing, because he is _under control_ for 5 more years. That is what cost control is.

 

[Brock Radunske]

The add needed with Hanifin for Nylander would give you whiplash.

Really? Hanifin is 21. He was drafted #5 overall. He is looking like a solid #3 that is likely to become a solid #2 dman.

Look at recent returns for players like that.

Well, has potential but he's a LHD and struggles defensively so he wouldn't be a target for TO. Also, I'm not sure I'd call him a 3D now. Maybe in a few years.

Yup no interest in Hanifin at all. He has received some of the highest levels of sheltering in the NHL and Carolina realized he wasn't improving in his own zone at all so sold before the rest of the league payed too much attention.

Yeh, kinda this.

 

[kihei]

You want Sakic's left or right nut with that as well?

Right nut, please. We have too many left nuts already.

 

[Schooner]

Of course you can. It was a bad trade. I’m talking the actual trade. Not anything that happened after. Just because you want to look at it 3 years later after a couple of pieces were shuffled elsewhere doesn’t mean it wasn’t a bad trade.

Someone tell Steve Dangle his trade trees aren't real and he is wrong

 

[JPeeper]

Well, has potential but he's a LHD and struggles defensively so he wouldn't be a target for TO. Also, I'm not sure I'd call him a 3D now. Maybe in a few years.

Watch a Flames game then. He is already a #3 and his defence is better than Hamilton's ever was, he doesn't struggle defensively. He is being used as the #1 shutdown d-man in Calgary right now with 60+% of his starts in the d-zone (the opposite of being sheltered). He also either leads Calgary or is 2nd in ice-time for d-men every game.

This is all with the same coach he had in Carolina.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Rantanen looks like he'll cost $9+ million with how he's playing.

That Landeskog, MacKinnon, Rantanen might be the best line in the NHL right now.

 

[JPeeper]

That Landeskog, MacKinnon, Rantanen might be the best line in the NHL right now.

As someone who just watched them and the Bergeron line from Boston, I think the Bergeron line is slightly better.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Krieder + McQuaid for Nylander and 3rd and a jello pudding pop

TML win now mode, get lotsa playoff experience and physical play for young team, on good contracts

NYR get a good asset for rebuild that seems to have reached impasse with current employers

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Watch a Flames game then. He is already a #3 and his defence is better than Hamilton's ever was, he doesn't struggle defensively. He is being used as the #1 shutdown d-man in Calgary right now with 60+% of his starts in the d-zone (the opposite of being sheltered). He also either leads Calgary or is 2nd in ice-time for d-men every game.

This is all with the same coach he had in Carolina.

Ya this is the first time in his career he hasnt recieved 55-60+ offensive zone starts and he is getting absolutely filled in the advanced stats are saying. Almost a -10% relative corsi lol. Worst relative corsi I think I have ever seen to be honest.


I watched him a decent amount in Carolina and he is most certainly not a good defensive player. Unless he magically changed over the summer that is..

 

[HoweHullOrr]

As someone who just watched them and the Bergeron line from Boston, I think the Bergeron line is slightly better.

There's several good lines that are in the running for sure. The point totals for that top Avalanche line over the last 4 games are insane. They played great last year in the last half of season as well.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Best line:

Me McDavid My mom

 

[JPeeper]

Ya this is the first time in his career he hasnt recieved 55-60+ offensive zone starts and he is getting absolutely filled in the advanced stats are saying. Almost a -10% relative corsi lol. Worst relative corsi I think I have ever seen to be honest.


I watched him a decent amount in Carolina and he is most certainly not a good defensive player. Unless he magically changed over the summer that is..

Wow advanced stats, they hold so much merit.

Not serious, I could give literally no f***s about the advanced stats. Advanced stats also said the Flames were a top 5 team last year and that Klefbom is the best d-man in the league. Their bullshit, nothing more nothing less.

I prefer to use something called my eyes and brain to see how a player looks rather than looking at bullshit stats. Advanced stats have and will always be complete horseshit.

 

[DanM]

As someone who just watched them and the Bergeron line from Boston, I think the Bergeron line is slightly better.

Both those top lines are wonderful!

 

[Starat327]

Looks like you have a thing for "multiple definitions". There are widely accepted definitions, and your own pedantic definitions such as what 'cost-controlled' means that you use to pointlessly nitpick. Nylander is quite clearly cost controlled. Look no further than the fact that he isn't playing, because he is _under control_ for 5 more years. That is what cost control is.

Can you answer me one question? How do you achieve cost-control on an asset (in this case, the player), on something that doesnt currently have a cost(player contract)? By definition, its impossible.

Again, just because everyone here equates 'RFA' to 'cost controlled' doesnt mean its accurate. If McDavid was 'cost-controlled' why did he get so much? Why didnt the Oilers strong arm him in to a smaller deal? I mean, he had no rights, right?

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Wow advanced stats, they hold so much merit.

Not serious, I could give literally no ****s about the advanced stats. Advanced stats also said the Flames were a top 5 team last year and that Klefbom is the best d-man in the league. Their bull****, nothing more nothing less.

I prefer to use something called my eyes and brain to see how a player looks rather than looking at bull**** stats. Advanced stats have and will always be complete horse****.

Okay so you prefer to use your eyes. I'm guessing you watch predominantly flames games as they are your favorite team I'm guessing. That is to be expected, not everyone can watch every game myself included. This is where advanced stats become important and is supposed to be a compliment to the eye test.

You also brought up zone start percentages so I'm guessing you only like advanced stats when they help your arguments lol.

The eye test plus the inclusion of advaned stats have always pointed at Hanifin struggling in his own end. Huge disparities in advaned stats are the true red flags.

For example, Giordano has played much harder QoC while playing 56% defensive zone starts and posted a CF% of 58.6%. Brodie played primarily with Gio playing 53% defensive zone starts and posted a CF% of 54.4. We look at Hanifin who received 60.5% defensive zone starts but posted a CF% of 47.5% while also facing easier QoC on the 2nd pairing. Although he is getting harder zone usage than his teammates it isnt enough of a difference to bridge the huge difference in their shot differential stats (CF%, Fenwick etc).

 

[shortfuze]

Someone tell Steve Dangle his trade trees aren't real and he is wrong

Who the f*** is Steve dangle?

 

[JPeeper]

Okay so you prefer to use your eyes. I'm guessing you watch predominantly flames games as they are your favorite team I'm guessing. That is to be expected, not everyone can watch every game myself included. This is where advanced stats become important and is supposed to be a compliment to the eye test.

You also brought up zone start percentages so I'm guessing you only like advanced stats when they help your arguments lol.

The eye test plus the inclusion of advaned stats have always pointed at Hanifin struggling in his own end. Huge disparities in advaned stats are the true red flags.

For example, Giordano has played much harder QoC while playing 56% defensive zone starts and posted a CF% of 58.6%. Brodie played primarily with Gio playing 53% defensive zone starts and posted a CF% of 54.4. We look at Hanifin who received 60.5% defensive zone starts but posted a CF% of 47.5% while also facing easier QoC on the 2nd pairing. Although he is getting harder zone usage than his teammates it isnt enough of a difference to bridge the huge difference in their shot differential stats (CF%, Fenwick etc).

Except zone starts aren't an advanced stats. They're a literal stat, you either start there or you don't.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Except zone starts aren't an advanced stats. They're a literal stat, you either start there or you don't.

So are most advanced stats.... what do you thing they are, completely made up numbers that werent actually measured from the game itself?

Corsi For percentage (CF%) simply looks at the shot differential while the player is on the ice.. you either get a shot on your net or you get a shot on your opponents net. Pretty much a literal stat.

 

[One Winged Angel]

So are most advanced stats.... what do you thing they are, completely made up numbers that werent actually measured from the game itself?

Corsi For percentage (CF%) simply looks at the shot differential while the player is on the ice.. you either get a shot on your net or you get a shot on your opponents net. Pretty much a literal stat.

What they don't account for is several variables, most importantly linemate performance.

That's why as much as they help, they're also not a be-all, end-all.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

What they don't account for is several variables, most importantly linemate performance.

That's why as much as they help, they're also not a be-all, end-all.

Of course. As I said they are ment to be a compliment to the eye test.

However huge differences in simple advanced stats like CF% often do point at deep underlying problems.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Of course. As I said they are ment to be a compliment to the eye test.

However huge differences in simple advanced stats like CF% often do point at deep underlying problems.

Corsi For doesn't account for linemate production.

Until they start putting trackers in pucks to more specifically track the puck and start getting more accurate results on zone percentage, what leads to turnovers and other variables that advance statistics don't account for, I won't value them more than an eye test, especially the word of someone who is using advanced statistics in place of watching the game.

What irks me the most about it is that it's been 6 years now. You figured there would have been some developments after the improvements that were seen in the 2nd and 3rd years of use. It doesn't seem like there's been much since then.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Can you answer me one question? How do you achieve cost-control on an asset (in this case, the player), on something that doesnt currently have a cost(player contract)? By definition, its impossible.

Again, just because everyone here equates 'RFA' to 'cost controlled' doesnt mean its accurate. If McDavid was 'cost-controlled' why did he get so much? Why didnt the Oilers strong arm him in to a smaller deal? I mean, he had no rights, right?

Very few rights, yes. He's also one of probably less than 5 guys other teams would offer sheet.

To answer your question further, do you think he would have been offered more if he was UFA?

While we are at it, why don't we see more offer sheets?

 

[EdJovanovski]

By that rationale, no player is ever cost controlled as non of them ever has to sign a contract, even coming out of juniors.

Lol what