Rumor: Kyle Dubas travels to to NYC to take in the flames vs rangers game. Why?

Starat327

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Very few rights, yes. He's also one of probably less than 5 guys other teams would offer sheet.

To answer your question further, do you think he would have been offered more if he was UFA?

While we are at it, why don't we see more offer sheets?

This has literally nothing to do with cost control. Im not even sure where youre taking this, so it seems like a good time to put this one to bed.
 

BoredBrandonPridham

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Can you answer me one question? How do you achieve cost-control on an asset (in this case, the player), on something that doesnt currently have a cost(player contract)? By definition, its impossible.

Again, just because everyone here equates 'RFA' to 'cost controlled' doesnt mean its accurate. If McDavid was 'cost-controlled' why did he get so much? Why didnt the Oilers strong arm him in to a smaller deal? I mean, he had no rights, right?

- you control the market because you own the rights to the player even though they are not under contract. It’s not an open market like UFA
- it is accurate unless you choose to be arbitrarily pedantic about some kind of definition. Note how you said EVERYONE equates it to cost controlled, but not you, oh boy!
- McDavid got a lot because he is the best player in the league. He would get more if he were UFA in an open market. He did have rights. He has the right not to play in the NHL, the right to sign an offer sheet. Other rights that cost controlled assets sometimes get access to are arbitration

It’s not that difficult really, you just have to, you know, not be overly difficult.
 
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NoName

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Dubas is a GM, of course he is exploring all his options with Nylander. Any good GM is constantly looking for ways to improve their roster. It doesn’t mean anything will necessarily happen, but I wouldn’t be suprised of Dubas had a conversation with New York’s or Calgary’s GMs about possible framework for a trade.

Frankly, I imagine GMs talk to eachother and probe out trade-targets more frequently then we imagine, at the very least it allows them to gather information.
 

NoName

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The fact that he isnt signed already means he isnt cost controlled. Leafs are playing hardball with a number (presumably - i admittedly know little of the details), or Nylander is playing hardball with a number. Either way, the 'cost' the leafs are willing to pay isnt acceptable to Nylander, and he thinks not playing is a better option.

He cant go play anywhere else in the NHL, so he's team controlled, but that he hasnt signed kind of implies that he isnt cost controlled.

By that rationale, no player is ever cost controlled as non of them ever has to sign a contract, even coming out of juniors.
If Nylander want to play in the NHL je has to either sign a contract woth Toronto or a valid offer-sheet, those are simply the rules for RFAs without arbitration rights. I mean sure... any of those guys are free to wuit the NHL and go to Europe and sign contracts there earning a fraction of what they would in the NHL. That generally isn’t seen as a viable option for most players and definitely isn’t seen as a credible threat in most contract negotiations (With a couple notable exceptions such as Kovalchuck). I doubt players like Nylander would turn down $6 million to play in Toronto to take a salary one tenth that amount to play his prine years in Sweden, and both the team and the player know this.
 
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NoName

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This has literally nothing to do with cost control. Im not even sure where youre taking this, so it seems like a good time to put this one to bed.
Leafs lose control of Nylander the moment someone steps up and offersheets him a contract that they won’t match. Until that happens, if Nylander wants to play in the NHL he has to sign the offer the Leafs give him, end of story.

On December 1 if no other team has offer-sheeted Nylander a contract he wants to sign, he faces choosing wheter to sign the contract the Leafs are offering or sit out the whole season and miss out on what would likely be $6 million. Any guesses what choice he would make?

Toronto’s best move is to sit on this since they have the leverage here. Definitely field calls from other GMs on possible trades involving Nylander, but they aren’t under pressure to trade him for less then he is worth, because they do control him. If another team wants to offersheet Nylander the contract he is looking for and is willing to pay Toronto the compensation (a 1st 2nd and 3rd), then this changes, but until that happens (and I don’t think any GM will change their minds and offer Nylander an 8 million x 5 year contract and be willing to sent Toronto all those picks), the Leafs hold the strong position here and they would be foolish not to use it.
 
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Starat327

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Leafs lose control of Nulander the moment someone steps up and offersheets him a contract that they won’t match. Until that happens, if Nylander wants to play in the NHL he has to sign the offer the Leafs give him, end of story.

On December 1 if no other team has offer-sheeted Nylander a contract he wants to sign, he faces choosing wheter to sign the contract the Leafs are offering or sit out the whole season and miss out on what would likely be $6 million. Any guesses what choice he would make?

Toronto’s best move is to sit on this since they have the leverage here. Definitely field calls from other GMs on possible trades involving Nylander, but they aren’t under pressure to trade him for less then he is worth, because they do control him. If another team wants to offersheet Nylander the contract he is looking for and is willing to pay Toronto the compensation (a 1st 2nd and 3rd), then this changes, but until that happens (and I don’t think any GM will change their minds and offer Nylander an 8 million x 5 year contract and be willing to sent Toronto all those picks), the Leafs hold the strong position here and they would be foolish not to use it.

Correct. The leafs own his contract rights. Im glad we could establish that. Owning his rights and calling him a 'cost controlled asset' - which is where this discussion originally started - are not the same thing.
 

NoName

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Correct. The leafs own his contract rights. Im glad we could establish that. Owning his rights and calling him a 'cost controlled asset' - which is where this discussion originally started - are not the same thing.
He is cost-controlled right now because he either signs the contract the Leafs are willing to offer him or he sits out. That is why RFAs without arbitration rights are called “cost-controlled assets”, because ultimately the team controls the cost to ice the player (compare with UFAs who can go to any team offering any contract or RFAs with arbitration rights where the cost is ultimately determined by an arbitrator.

Semantics aside, none of this changes the equation for the Leafs: sitting and waiting is obviously the best play; no one is stepping up and offer-sheeting Nylander. Why not just let him sit and face losing more and more money day after day until December 1 when he faces lising millions, at which point that defeats the whole point of holding out to make more money in the fist place? Hard-ball is the clear best option for Toronto right now because they have the leverage. If another team aere willing to offer-sheet Nylander tr contract he wants (would be 8x5years sunce 5 years is the max that is practical give how offersheets are calculated) that equation would change, but it has become abundantly clear that this is not the case. Caving to his demand and signing him to a bad contract or trafing him for below his value to another team is both foolish and unnecessary.
 

Starat327

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He is cost-controlled right now because he either signs the contract the Leafs are willing to offer him or he sits out. That is why RFAs without arbitration rights are called “cost-controlled assets”, because ultimately the team controls the cost to ice the player (compare with UFAs who can go to any team offering any contract or RFAs with arbitration rights where the cost is ultimately determined by an arbitrator.

Semantics aside, none of this changes the equation for the Leafs: sitting and waiting is obviously the best play; no one is stepping up and offer-sheeting Nylander. Why not just let him sit and face losing more and more money day after day until December 1 when he faces lising millions, at which point that defeats the whole point of holding out to make more money in the fist place? Hard-ball is the clear best option for Toronto right now because they have the leverage. If another team aere willing to offer-sheet Nylander tr contract he wants (would be 8x5years sunce 5 years is the max that is practical give how offersheets are calculated) that equation would change, but it has become abundantly clear that this is mot the case.

Don't disagree with the second paragraph, think it's the best play for the leafs. The first paragraph, as you (and I, previously) said, is semantics.
 

NoName

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Don't disagree with the second paragraph, think it's the best play for the leafs. The first paragraph, as you (and I, previously) said, is semantics.
Fair enough. Semantics for the sake of semantics isn’t really worth debating.
 

Skinnyjimmy08

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Dubas is a GM, of course he is exploring all his options with Nylander. Any good GM is constantly looking for ways to improve their roster. It doesn’t mean anything will necessarily happen, but I wouldn’t be suprised of Dubas had a conversation with New York’s or Calgary’s GMs about possible framework for a trade.

Frankly, I imagine GMs talk to eachother and probe out trade-targets more frequently then we imagine, at the very least it allows them to gather information.

Exactly... I know a former GM of a team and he always said that if he slept past 6am without his cell phone ringing from other teams/agents, he would panic and wonder if something weird is going on in the league lol. He said there is constant talk amongst GMs daily on how teams look to change things up
 

Rants Mulliniks

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The point of the discussion was that Cost control and team control are two different things. Offer sheets have nothing to do with that, so youll have to excuse me for declining the invite to your rabbit hole.

They are different things to you. If you want we can say "lollipops and unicorns" instead of the "team control" you would like to use. It won't change the fact that it directly controls contracts.
 

indigobuffalo

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Nylander is not siging for less that 7 mil, Marner will get 8-9 mathews will get 12. Thats thirty mil.

Not less than $7M??

Yikes.

What comparables are you using??

Pastrnak has arguably been better and signed for $6.66M

Arvidsson signed at $4.25M.

Nylander should end up somewhere between those two values. $8M is what his agent came to the table with to try and bully a rookie GM into signing a bad (good for Nylander) deal.

He could’ve come in and asked for $14M AAV x 8 yrs and people would think that meant Dubas couldn’t accept less than $12M AAV... :facepalm:

Really look at what similar players with similar production have signed for at the same age in the last few years.

It would be outright larceny by his agent if Nylander signs at $7M
 
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DemidovSaveUs

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Dubas was in NYC because nylander agent resides in Manhattan, and dubas went to watch the rangers/flames game because he likes hockey
 

PAZ

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Not less than $7M??

Yikes.

What comparables are you using??

Pastrnak has arguably been better and signed for $6.66M

Arvidsson signed at $4.25M.

Nylander should end up somewhere between those two values. $8M is what his agent came to the table with to try and bully a rookie GM into signing a bad (good for Nylander) deal.

He could’ve come in and asked for $14M AAV x 8 yrs and people would think that meant Dubas couldn’t accept less than $12M AAV... :facepalm:

Really look at what similar players with similar production have signed for at the same age in the last few years.

It would be outright larceny by his agent if Nylander signs at $7M

Calculate Pastrnak's cap hit percentage than apply that to Nylander's. Also, Arvidsson had one good year, before that he produced 16 points in 55 games.

Nylander's best comparable is Ehlers, except Nylander is the better player.
 

indigobuffalo

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Calculate Pastrnak's cap hit percentage than apply that to Nylander's. Also, Arvidsson had one good year, before that he produced 16 points in 55 games.

Nylander's best comparable is Ehlers, except Nylander is the better player.

Him: Nylander won’t sign for less than $7
Me: here are some reasons why we should expect between $4.25 and $6.6
You: You’re wrong, better comparable is $6

(Last time I checked math 4.25 < 6 < 6.6)
 
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PAZ

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Him: Nylander won’t sign for less than $7
Me: here are some reasons why we should expect between $4.25 and $6.6
You: You’re wrong, better comparable is $6

(Last time I checked math 4.25 < 6 < 6.6)

Best comparable, expect calculate the cap percentage of both Pastrnak and Ehlers contracts of when they were signed (like I alluded to last post).

I can imagine your negotiations.

You: So Matthews, you're willing to sign for $7 mil, right?
Matthews: Was thinking closer to $11 mil
You: Crosby is getting paid $8.7 mil throughout his career, which means you should get paid $7 mil
 
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Colt55

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Not less than $7M??

Yikes.

What comparables are you using??

Pastrnak has arguably been better and signed for $6.66M

Arvidsson signed at $4.25M.

Nylander should end up somewhere between those two values. $8M is what his agent came to the table with to try and bully a rookie GM into signing a bad (good for Nylander) deal.

He could’ve come in and asked for $14M AAV x 8 yrs and people would think that meant Dubas couldn’t accept less than $12M AAV... :facepalm:

Really look at what similar players with similar production have signed for at the same age in the last few years.

It would be outright larceny by his agent if Nylander signs at $7M
He wants drais money. He put up close to drais numbers.
 

powerstuck

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Very few rights, yes. He's also one of probably less than 5 guys other teams would offer sheet.

To answer your question further, do you think he would have been offered more if he was UFA?

While we are at it, why don't we see more offer sheets?

There is no way to know how many offer sheets a play can/will receive during his career. Simply because currently that can remain the secret between an agent and a GM.

Now if the question is why we don't see more SIGNED offer sheets, maybe because players expect a bigger amount and teams are kinda limited due to compensation ? It's a pandora box in itself.
 

Rants Mulliniks

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There is no way to know how many offer sheets a play can/will receive during his career. Simply because currently that can remain the secret between an agent and a GM.

Now if the question is why we don't see more SIGNED offer sheets, maybe because players expect a bigger amount and teams are kinda limited due to compensation ? It's a pandora box in itself.

So you are saying it is almost like the mechanism built into the bargaining contract might restrict salaries?
 

Rants Mulliniks

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He wants drais money. He put up close to drais numbers.

If you look at first three years, yes. That ignores that one was a year older and that at a year younger, Draisatl's best season was 25% greater than anything Nylander has done to date. Applying cap inflation and reducing Nylander's salary by 25%.....$6.8M.
 

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