News Article: Kris Draper, has been promoted to the Red Wings’ director of Amateur Scouting.

[TheOctopusKid]

I gotta laugh at the thought of anyone thinking they know more about the value of goalies than the gm who spent the first half of his career playing with a never ending line of goalies jumping out of a clown car to take their turn in net. I would love to see the look on his face if someone walked up to him and told him goalies are a dime a dozen.

This is the same guy who was mocked and derided by the brain trust on hf boards after his first big move in Tampa. The Bishop trade thread was filled with pointing and laughing at the noob gm that traded the future up and coming 40 goal scorer for the unproven goalie in Ottawa. I'm going to go out on a limb and venture that Yzerman does not see goalies as a dime a dozen and values the position a great deal.

Awww...poor Tim Cheveldae

 

[Syckle78]

Awww...poor Tim Cheveldae

I was a fan of ol Timmy. He was at the end of the clown line before Ozzie and Vernon came on to the scene and solidified things. I think I was around 6th grade in Ozzies rookie year and I hated him at first cause he was going to take Chevys job.

 

[Bench]

I'm going to go out on a limb and venture that Yzerman does not see goalies as a dime a dozen and values the position a great deal.

He's been very candid about it. Since he started in Tampa, one of his first missions was to find a goalie. Here's a quote from 2012. Note how he mentions there's only 5 or 6 elite guys and that's who he is trying to get.

Yzerman quells Luongo-to-Tampa rumor, says he'll get goalie through draft or free agency | ProHockeyTalk | NBC Sports

Q: What is your theory about going out and getting a goalie? Are you looking at older veterans like Roloson, or do you think you have to go another way and get a really big-name, elite, top franchise goaltender like a Roberto Luongo or someone like that?

Yzerman: I think everybody’s trying to find somebody that’s an elite guy — I would say there’s probably five or six elite goaltenders in the league and then there’s a group of good goaltenders, and then there’s a group of teams searching for that guy to lock up and not worry about for the present and the future.

My philosophy is I’m trying to find that Hall of Fame goaltender. But good luck trying to do that, it takes time. We’ll find that guy through the draft or unrestricted free agency — that guy isn’t there at this time.

 

[Bench]

It does raise a good point - in the modern era, are team generally limited in the way they get to the Cup? I've always been in the boat of "Build down the middle - Elite 1st line C, Top 2nd line C - As good of a Top 4 as you can - Don't Spend on Goalie"

But honestly, I think that's my own bias and maybe isn't actually reflective of how teams are built and win. This deserves my exploration on my part.

The modern teams that have had sustained success have usually bent over backwards to sign the goalie that brought them success. Quick, Crawford, Rask, Fleury, Binnington, and of course Vasi. All of them won and then were rewarded handsomely to stay.

It's a bit of a dated idea that successful teams are just cycling through goalies like underwear. The last goalie to win a Cup that wasn't drafted by his team was Tim Thomas in 2011. I feel like that's far more an outlier, some guy who played in Europe signing as a free agent in his 30s, than the list of teams that had drafted and developed goalie talent.

Everyone else won with home grown talent that often lead to beefy extensions. Those that didn't get extended were teams that already had young investments in goaltending via the draft, like Pittsburgh (2nd rounder Jarry, 3rd rounder Murray) and Washington (1st rounder Samonsov and 2nd round goalie Vanecek).

The scouting had changed a lot in the last 30 years. If you look at the young star goalies breaking into the league and stealing jobs, you'll find a lot of 1st and 2nd rounders on that list.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

The modern teams that have had sustained success have usually bent over backwards to sign the goalie that brought them success. Quick, Crawford, Rask, Fleury, Binnington, and of course Vasi. All of them won and then were rewarded handsomely to stay.

Right, I think that's what I am really trying to generally process. Pre-Cap, there seemed to be a pretty steady model of execution here through the 90's and 00's. And then looking through the various Cup Winners in the 00's onward...

Blackhawks - Honestly, this team was built on speed, and overwhelming scoring from a parade incredibly talented wings - outside of Toews - I would struggle to point at any depth down the middle - Bolland? Handzus? The corpse of Brad Richards? - but their wingers were unreal: Kane, Hossa, Buff, Bickell, Saad, Sharpe, Shaw, Versteeg, Ladd, Brouwer, etc. Those Hawks teams were fast, unrelating, and could score at the drop of a hat.

Bruins - Elite Goaltender from Thomas and an absurdly deep team. Not exactly an elite level, top end talent; but dangerous, physical up and down all four lines with a heavy emphasis on two-way play; Top point leader on that team? Krejci with 62pts - good for 44th overall in the league. This team was built on depth and physicality.

Pens - I'll concede, that team is truly built on having Elite Centers. Period. Crosby/Malkin is as good of a Cup Champion Tandem as any of the elite 1-2's we've seen in the last 30 years: Yzerman/Federov, Sakic/Forsberg, Lecavalier/Richards ....and I guess if we stretched that definition: Modano/Neiwendyk, Staal/Brind'Amour

Kings - This team was built on the back of Kopitar and Doughty - 1C and 1D. I would not call Richards or Carter high ceiling talent in their first Cup and certainly not in their second. This team was a 1st Line/1st Pair kind of team with a whole bunch of sandpaper behind them and an elite goalie in Quick who was out of his mind.

Caps - Sure. They finally cracked their code after a decade of trying and it came on the back of Kuzy's breakout and giving them them another elite Center at just the right time.

Blues - Um...no? I would not call RoR an Elite Level C in the NHL, and I couldn't even tell you who was the 2nd C...I'd be guessing. Perron? This team was another that was a lot like the Bruins - just really well rounded, diverse, and deep. I wouldn't exactly call any of them elite ceiling superstars - outside of Pietrangelo, a Norris Level Defenseman.

Lightning - Absurd.

Across this board, there isn't a tried a true sample template here. Some pulled it off with good balance (BOS, STL) , others with an overloaded Top Line (LA), some did it with Elite Talent down the middle (TB, PIT, WAS) , but others pulled it off with wingers (CHI). Some had elite goalies spinning on their heads at the top of their games...others had just a guy.

Coincidentally, the 1 thing that they all had was...1x Norris Level Defenseman (Keith, Chara, Letang, Doughty, Carlson, Pietrangelo, Hedman). So maybe the Wings already have their cornerstone to build their contender? (That was a joke - I don't think we're ready yet. Weapons down, boys)

 

[Killerjas]

You could be right, but we aren't exactly spending a ton of high draft capital on USHL picks apart from Buium and Mastrosimone.

That might be caused because our USHL scouting is lacking and can't identify prospects very well, thats why they are not very high on the USHL players. Some good players they skipped since 2020:

Farrell
Gushchin
Fontaine
Schingoethe
Rolston
Ambrosio
Berard

 

[BStinson]

I'm not a huge fan of some of our recent (and not so recent) North American picks and wouldn't mind picking even more from Europe, but assigning draft picks as either "Draper picks" and "Håkan picks" doesn't seem like a great way to do it. After all, Draper is director of all amateur scouting, not just North America. In fact, I remember reading something about Yzerman wanting Håkan to be more involved in evaluating top North American draft prospects also, and that being a reason why they hired Thomas Carlsson. I'll see if I can find a link.

Edit. This Swedish article has a bit about that: "Törs knappt säga till dig vad de säger om honom" - Hockeysverige – Mer av sporten du älskar - Hockeysverige – Mer av sporten du älskar

Hakan was on the EliteProspects podcast with JD Burke and Button last year some time and talked about it. Like you said they specifically hired Thomas to give him free time to come to NA to evaluate guys. He also said that some NA guys would go over to Europe to evaluate their assessments. He also talked about how he found Thomas to hire him.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Really? Look at other teams that rebuilt recently.
Edmonton McDavid-Draisaitl
Toronto Marner-Mathews
Buffalo Eichel-Dahlin
Colorado McKinnon-Makar

We don't have any prospects equal to those. Maybe Raymond is an elite wing. That's hardly a core. We need at least two elite players and at least one needs to be a center. But hey we may or may not have a decent goalie in 5 years.

Mo Seider is the best prospect to join the Wings since Zetterberg. I get we are worried about putting that on him but it is true.

What I see on most of that is we lack a first overall pick, which we have no control over in the current system.

 

[better Red than Dead]

Mo Seider is the best prospect to join the Wings since Zetterberg. I get we are worried about putting that on him but it is true.

What I see on most of that is we lack a first overall pick, which we have no control over in the current system.

This. 100%. Show me another prospect who has dominated three pro leagues, won awards and high praise before their 20th birthday, not even Makar did that. Seider’s floor is a first pairing, minute eating defenseman who is physical. His upside is being in every Norris Trophy conversation for the next 10 years, he’s that good. I don’t get why people are so reserved in their enthusiasm of this kid. People show more excitement for Owen Power, who hasn’t done anything close to resembling what Seider has

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Yes yes, everything will be bad, I know.

But damn dude, Luongo was kind of a beast, so I don't know why he's included on that list. Oh no, please, don't give this franchise a goalie that will end 4th all-time in wins. What a terrible fate. And Holtby performed very well and got his Cup on a reasonable contract. When he was too expensive, they replaced him... with another goalie they drafted in the 1st round. The Caps other goalie was taken early in the 2nd at #39 overall (and they spent another 2nd rounder to get him back from the Kraken). They have invested heavily in goaltending, too. I guess they didn't learn the lesson they were supposed to from the dreaded Holtby situation they endured.

If Cossa can legitimately make a claim at a $12 million dollar contract, it means things have gone exceptionally well and he's won awards. So... I dunno, seems OK.

Luongo is still on Florida's books. How many cups did Luongo win? Oh yeah building around a goalie is not smart.

I gotta laugh at the thought of anyone thinking they know more about the value of goalies than the gm who spent the first half of his career playing with a never ending line of goalies jumping out of a clown car to take their turn in net. I would love to see the look on his face if someone walked up to him and told him goalies are a dime a dozen.

This is the same guy who was mocked and derided by the brain trust on hf boards after his first big move in Tampa. The Bishop trade thread was filled with pointing and laughing at the noob gm that traded the future up and coming 40 goal scorer for the unproven goalie in Ottawa. I'm going to go out on a limb and venture that Yzerman does not see goalies as a dime a dozen and values the position a great deal.

Yzerman just grabbed Neds for a 3rd rounder. Wow goalies are just really hard to come by.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

P.S. I get it Oaf. Taking a goalie is a big risk. We could just roll with Greiss and Nedeljkovic. And sign whatever FA pops up in 2 years if they both leave. And we could have another forward. Its all within the realm of theory at this point though. If Cossa becomes a starter in the NHL... I would say this is a great pick. He doesn't have to win Vezina's. Because bottom line the 23rd overall pick gets you guys like Svechnikov/cholowski/Mantha. Sometimes you get a Mantha. And sometimes you get a Cholowski. I am fine with our gamble on Cossa. Because sorry to say, we don't even have an AHL goalie in the system before this. It was needed.

We took Cossa at 15th. After packaging a 1st a 2nd and a 5th to move up. Pastrnak was picked 15th.

 

[Bench]

Luongo is still on Florida's books. How many cups did Luongo win? Oh yeah building around a goalie is not smart.

Wrong.
The lesson there was you never build around twins.

It's unsettling.

 

[Frk It]

We took Cossa at 15th. After packaging a 1st a 2nd and a 5th to move up. Pastrnak was picked 15th.

Pastrnak was picked 25th.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

This. 100%. Show me another prospect who has dominated three pro leagues, won awards and high praise before their 20th birthday, not even Makar did that. Seider’s floor is a first pairing, minute eating defenseman who is physical. His upside is being in every Norris Trophy conversation for the next 10 years, he’s that good. I don’t get why people are so reserved in their enthusiasm of this kid. People show more excitement for Owen Power, who hasn’t done anything close to resembling what Seider has

They're worried someone will call into question their credibility if they are wrong.

Or they are worried about having their hearts broken because we Wings fans were gaslighted by Holland and company from 2011 to 2017 about our prospects.

Or they are simply unable to assess a player's talents by picking apart their play by watching them. Anyone with eyes knows that Seider isn't just physical. He flat out tilts the ice whenever he's on.

Or...they are just look to keep posting negativity all the time to stir the pot.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Pastrnak was picked 25th.

We could of gotten a center better than Pastrnak!

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Wrong.
The lesson there was you never build around twins.

It's unsettling.

Everybody knows you don't build around twins. Twins and goalies. Bad strategies.

 

[BStinson]

Luongo is still on Florida's books. How many cups did Luongo win? Oh yeah building around a goalie is not smart.

Yzerman just grabbed Neds for a 3rd rounder. Wow goalies are just really hard to come by.

Luongo is a HOF goalie, what’re you talking about? Ned has 29 games on his resume, let’s chill a little thinking he’s the next great goalie.

We could of gotten a center better than Pastrnak!

Who?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Luongo is still on Florida's books. How many cups did Luongo win? Oh yeah building around a goalie is not smart.

Yzerman just grabbed Neds for a 3rd rounder. Wow goalies are just really hard to come by.

Nedeljkovic is an alright player. We hope he’ll be a good player. But realistically, he’s a downgrade from Bernier, I’d bet. It’s a good risk to take, but it’s fair to question Nedeljkovic’s upside and whether Carolina was right. That’s why Yzerman signed him to just a couple years at a low risk deal.

We took Cossa at 15th. After packaging a 1st a 2nd and a 5th to move up. Pastrnak was picked 15th.

I mean, are you even trying? You should absolutely know who was taken 15th OA in the Pastrnak draft. That was Dylan Larkin.

Lastly… no. Florida didn’t build around Luongo. They didn’t do a damn thing for almost his whole career. Then he got dealt to Vancouver. And he’s on the books still because of the contract that Vancouver signed him to that was legal when signed and had recapture applied later.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Luongo is a HOF goalie, what’re you talking about? Ned has 29 games on his resume, let’s chill a little thinking he’s the next great goalie.


Who?

Pastrnak isn’t a center. And we got Larkin in that draft… who, to be fair, is a better center than David Pastrnak would be

 

[lilidk]

Doesn't matter how much you don't like Draper at his position he will be here for many years to come

 

[BStinson]

Pastrnak isn’t a center. And we got Larkin in that draft… who, to be fair, is a better center than David Pastrnak would be

I get it, my point is more question the logic behind that poster’s comment. Someone will always use hindsight to justify a stance. Larkin was a great selection and if IRC if he wasn’t available Holland had Pastrnak next on his board per the rumor mill at the time. I’m just looking forward to that user saying well we could’ve gotten Point in the third without realizing every team is saying that and the odds of that pick panning out re horrible. It’s just not logical.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I get it, my point is more question the logic behind that poster’s comment. Someone will always use hindsight to justify a stance. Larkin was a great selection and if IRC if he wasn’t available Holland had Pastrnak next on his board per the rumor mill at the time. I’m just looking forward to that user saying well we could’ve gotten Point in the third without realizing every team is saying that and the odds of that pick panning out re horrible. It’s just not logical.

Ken Daniels confirmed as much in an interview. Someone posted the video of Daniels stating that the Wings really liked Pastrnak but had a gigantic hole at center which is why they decided Larkin.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I get it, my point is more question the logic behind that poster’s comment. Someone will always use hindsight to justify a stance. Larkin was a great selection and if IRC if he wasn’t available Holland had Pastrnak next on his board per the rumor mill at the time. I’m just looking forward to that user saying well we could’ve gotten Point in the third without realizing every team is saying that and the odds of that pick panning out re horrible. It’s just not logical.

It isn’t. And I agree with you.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Nedeljkovic is an alright player. We hope he’ll be a good player. But realistically, he’s a downgrade from Bernier, I’d bet. It’s a good risk to take, but it’s fair to question Nedeljkovic’s upside and whether Carolina was right. That’s why Yzerman signed him to just a couple years at a low risk deal.



I mean, are you even trying? You should absolutely know who was taken 15th OA in the Pastrnak draft. That was Dylan Larkin.

Lastly… no. Florida didn’t build around Luongo. They didn’t do a damn thing for almost his whole career. Then he got dealt to Vancouver. And he’s on the books still because of the contract that Vancouver signed him to that was legal when signed and had recapture applied later.

No. I'm not even trying.
It's funny though that in order to argue the point some are now diminishing the genius of the Neddy trade. Yesterday someone brought up Knight's illustrious 4 game NHL career.
Oh well. When we don't have a cup win in 10 years we can look back and say maybe we shouldn't have wasted such capital on a goalie.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

No. I'm not even trying.
It's funny though that in order to argue the point some are now diminishing the genius of the Neddy trade. Yesterday someone brought up Knight's illustrious 4 game NHL career.
Oh well. When we don't have a cup win in 10 years we can look back and say maybe we shouldn't have wasted such capital on a goalie.

I’m not diminishing it. I’m saying that we got him for a 3rd because he’s not guaranteed to be a fabulous goalie. It’s an incredible trade because it was very low risk. He is pretty much set to be a starting goalie and we got it for a third. But getting Nedeljkovic didn’t fix our problems in net. He’s no less a stopgap than every other guy that you have bitched about endlessly. He’s potentially more talented, but he is a stopgap nonetheless