News Article: Kris Draper, has been promoted to the Red Wings’ director of Amateur Scouting.

[Rzombo4 prez]

You can hate Kris Draper for his NA picks, but that is not fair. I am more sceptical of the NA scouts, in particular their USHL scouting. Mazur, Stange, Aucoin, Draper (Fair enough thats Canadian high school) are all questionable.

I give them props for Bradley which is a great find,

You could be right, but we aren't exactly spending a ton of high draft capital on USHL picks apart from Buium and Mastrosimone.

 

[Hen Kolland]

I would argue that a goalie at 15 when you don't even have a core to build around is always a bad decision. This pick will never be the right one regardless of how good he turns out to be because it is poor risk management relative to the foundation of your team. It is very likely to be an utter waste of a pretty high pick given the history of goalies picked high in the draft.

Imagine thinking that one of the deepest prospect pools in the sport doesn’t have a core to build around…

Do we have an abundance of high end center prospects? No. Do we have a core of talented prospects? f*** yeah we do.

 

[ShanahanMan]

Not impressed with any Draper picks so far. I feel like he’s following the same draft mentality as Wright.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Imagine thinking that one of the deepest prospect pools in the sport doesn’t have a core to build around…

Do we have an abundance of high end center prospects? No. Do we have a core of talented prospects? f*** yeah we do.

Really? Look at other teams that rebuilt recently.
Edmonton McDavid-Draisaitl
Toronto Marner-Mathews
Buffalo Eichel-Dahlin
Colorado McKinnon-Makar

We don't have any prospects equal to those. Maybe Raymond is an elite wing. That's hardly a core. We need at least two elite players and at least one needs to be a center. But hey we may or may not have a decent goalie in 5 years.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Not impressed with any Draper picks so far. I feel like he’s following the same draft mentality as Wright.

So far Wright has assembled most of the prospect pool that people think are going to the playoffs 2 years from now.

 

[Bench]

But hey we may or may not have a decent goalie in 5 years.

But wait, if goalies take longer to develop, as you claim, then wouldn't they logically be one of the first positions you draft?

 

[Revenge of Gru]

But wait, if goalies take longer to develop, as you claim, then wouldn't they logically be one of the first positions you draft?

Goalies are a dime a dozen. We just picked up a 25 year old stud for a 3rd rd pick. Goalies are always available in free agency and tons of quality goalies are drafted in later rounds and developed. There's just no need to gamble such resources on a goalie.

And I am not "claiming" they take a long time. They do.
Vasilevski was drafted in 2012. He wasn't a starter until 2016-17. He's probably the best in the world.

 

[BinCookin]

Not impressed with any Draper picks so far. I feel like he’s following the same draft mentality as Wright.

Draper was the one that stood up at the table to insist we take Tyler Bertuzzi if I recall correctly.

I think everyone here doing some Draper complaining is yelling at the clouds. You have no idea who is behind which decisions. Maybe we find out in a book 10 years from now. But bottom line is WE WILL SEE. We can do a re-draft every year, of all the past years. And we will see how our picks perform. The RED WINGS picks, not Drapers, not Hakan's, not Yzerman's. They are all our picks. And all these guys work together to make them. They could fail, they can make mistakes, but they are doing it as a team. And if that team has cracks, people will be fired, and new hires.

We will see.

 

[BinCookin]

P.S. I get it Oaf. Taking a goalie is a big risk. We could just roll with Greiss and Nedeljkovic. And sign whatever FA pops up in 2 years if they both leave. And we could have another forward. Its all within the realm of theory at this point though. If Cossa becomes a starter in the NHL... I would say this is a great pick. He doesn't have to win Vezina's. Because bottom line the 23rd overall pick gets you guys like Svechnikov/cholowski/Mantha. Sometimes you get a Mantha. And sometimes you get a Cholowski. I am fine with our gamble on Cossa. Because sorry to say, we don't even have an AHL goalie in the system before this. It was needed.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

P.S. I get it Oaf. Taking a goalie is a big risk. We could just roll with Greiss and Nedeljkovic. And sign whatever FA pops up in 2 years if they both leave. And we could have another forward. Its all within the realm of theory at this point though. If Cossa becomes a starter in the NHL... I would say this is a great pick. He doesn't have to win Vezina's. Because bottom line the 23rd overall pick gets you guys like Svechnikov/cholowski/Mantha. Sometimes you get a Mantha. And sometimes you get a Cholowski. I am fine with our gamble on Cossa. Because sorry to say, we don't even have an AHL goalie in the system before this. It was needed.

For funsies.
23rd overall draft picks - Points leaders

Historically speaking, the 23rd overall pick is not a very good pick.
But the 15th overall? Much better.

 

[Bench]

And I am not "claiming" they take a long time. They do.
Vasilevski was drafted in 2012. He wasn't a starter until 2016-17. He's probably the best in the world.

All the more reason to take them earlier in the rebuild then.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Really? Look at other teams that rebuilt recently.
Edmonton McDavid-Draisaitl
Toronto Marner-Mathews
Buffalo Eichel-Dahlin
Colorado McKinnon-Makar

We don't have any prospects equal to those. Maybe Raymond is an elite wing. That's hardly a core. We need at least two elite players and at least one needs to be a center. But hey we may or may not have a decent goalie in 5 years.

Now I don’t want to spoil your fun, but exactly how many championships are split between those powerhouses? How many times have we heard about how Edmonton needs to get better support for Connor or how Buffalo is f***ing the Eichel situation into the ground?

How many top 3 picks (often referred to as a lottery pick) are in that batch?

The Wings haven’t had the same luck in the lottery, but it’s not like the other teams have had a ton of success with those “core” players.

Meanwhile, the Red Wings are sitting on possibly 5-6 23 and under players who are better than pretty much any prospect than what those teams have added to the fold, with the obvious exception being Colorado, who ironically (not actually) has looked the most dangerous along the way.

 

[Winger98]

By that metric reaching just isn't very relevant if you can be both a reach and the correct pick. Again, the point is to pick the best possible player regardless of popular opinion. You could follow the public scouts like a Buffalo running off of a cliff and never reach on any pick, but walk away with a god awful draft class with zero NHL players because the public pollsters were objectively wrong in their opinions. You wouldn't be reaching, but you would suck at your job.

Again, I don't care about reaching, I care about making the right pick.

You employ your own scouts for a reason, and if you get the best player at the spot you're picking then it doesn't really matter what position they are playing. You accrue enough talent and you either find a system to fit it or use that talent to make other moves. But you have to get talent to begin with.

 

[lilidk]

You can hate Kris Draper for his NA picks, but that is not fair. I am more sceptical of the NA scouts, in particular their USHL scouting. Mazur, Stange, Aucoin, Draper (Fair enough thats Canadian high school) are all questionable.

I give them props for Bradley which is a great find,

It's too early to tell if they are all bad picks

 

[Retire91]

My only concern with Draper is how much he brings to the job vs how much clout he has with the organization. I think a lot of who Draper is to the organization is how he got this job and he probably has a long leash. But he hasn't done much to show he won't do a good job. I think there is a little of his legacy riding on Cossa pick and like most of us I am hoping for the best. Its the thing with scouting is by the time you can confirm its bad its already too late so we are in for a penny in for a pound so to speak. I am just Glad Yzerman overhauled the whole system for the most part. The previous group was for sure underperforming.

It's also not like Draper came out of now where he has been scouting for quite some time now. I prefer the wait and see route. A lot of his picks need time to prove out.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

All the more reason to take them earlier in the rebuild then.

I get what you're saying but it really doesn't make sense to trade up to 15 and take a goalie. They could have gotten similar odds later in the draft or like I said, goaliea are dime a dozen. It's a wasted resource at a critical juncture in the rebuild.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Now I don’t want to spoil your fun, but exactly how many championships are split between those powerhouses? How many times have we heard about how Edmonton needs to get better support for Connor or how Buffalo is f***ing the Eichel situation into the ground?

How many top 3 picks (often referred to as a lottery pick) are in that batch?

The Wings haven’t had the same luck in the lottery, but it’s not like the other teams have had a ton of success with those “core” players.

Meanwhile, the Red Wings are sitting on possibly 5-6 23 and under players who are better than pretty much any prospect than what those teams have added to the fold, with the obvious exception being Colorado, who ironically (not actually) has looked the most dangerous along the way.

Just because those teams haven't won doesn't mean that having the best players in the world is not a good way to build a cup team. That's silly. Are we trying to be Montreal?
I'm aware that we didn't get lottery luck but that doesn't negate the need for top end talent. It simply extends the timeline or it launches you straight to the middle which is where we seem to be aiming while we search for Pastrnak.

 

[Bench]

I get what you're saying but it really doesn't make sense to trade up to 15 and take a goalie. They could have gotten similar odds later in the draft or like I said, goaliea are dime a dozen. It's a wasted resource at a critical juncture in the rebuild.

You're a few months late for me to go circles with you on this one. But I'll give you the condensed talking points before we call it a day.

Goalies are a dime a dozen, but elite ones are not. They are very valuable and hard to get, thus why Yzerman was aggressive finding one in Tampa and why he's trying to do the same in Detroit. Even if Cossa fails to live up to expectations, it doesn't make the philosophy void, it just means they picked the wrong guy.

Ultimately I get where people are coming from when they are down on goalie value, but I think it's a dated viewpoint that doesn't hold up with modern hockey. And I feel thankful our GM believes an elite goalie is a cornerstone to the franchise, because even if Cossa falters, he'll keep trying. So the "never 1st round goalie" folks need to hope and pray Cossa works out, otherwise I guarantee he'll try again.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

You're a few months late for me to go circles with you on this one. But I'll give you the condensed talking points before we call it a day.

Goalies are a dime a dozen, but elite ones are not. They are very valuable and hard to get, thus why Yzerman was aggressive finding one in Tampa and why he's trying to do the same in Detroit. Even if Cossa fails to live up to expectations, it doesn't make the philosophy void, it just means they picked the wrong guy.

Ultimately I get where people are coming from when they are down on goalie value, but I think it's a dated viewpoint that doesn't hold up with modern hockey. And I feel thankful our GM believes an elite goalie is a cornerstone to the franchise, because even if Cossa falters, he'll keep trying. So the "never 1st round goalie" folks need to hope and pray Cossa works out, otherwise I guarantee he'll try again.

Probably because apparently we won't have any high end centers so we're gonna need a goalie that can win all by himself. It's the Montreal model. Just wait until Cossa is looking for an 8 x$12 contract and then becomes Bobrovsky or Luongo or Holtby or....on and on and on.

 

[Bench]

Probably because apparently we won't have any high end centers so we're gonna need a goalie that can win all by himself. It's the Montreal model. Just wait until Cossa is looking for an 8 x$12 contract and then becomes Bobrovsky or Luongo or Holtby or....on and on and on.

Yes yes, everything will be bad, I know.

But damn dude, Luongo was kind of a beast, so I don't know why he's included on that list. Oh no, please, don't give this franchise a goalie that will end 4th all-time in wins. What a terrible fate. And Holtby performed very well and got his Cup on a reasonable contract. When he was too expensive, they replaced him... with another goalie they drafted in the 1st round. The Caps other goalie was taken early in the 2nd at #39 overall (and they spent another 2nd rounder to get him back from the Kraken). They have invested heavily in goaltending, too. I guess they didn't learn the lesson they were supposed to from the dreaded Holtby situation they endured.

If Cossa can legitimately make a claim at a $12 million dollar contract, it means things have gone exceptionally well and he's won awards. So... I dunno, seems OK.

 

[The Zermanator]

You're a few months late for me to go circles with you on this one. But I'll give you the condensed talking points before we call it a day.

Goalies are a dime a dozen, but elite ones are not. They are very valuable and hard to get, thus why Yzerman was aggressive finding one in Tampa and why he's trying to do the same in Detroit. Even if Cossa fails to live up to expectations, it doesn't make the philosophy void, it just means they picked the wrong guy.

Ultimately I get where people are coming from when they are down on goalie value, but I think it's a dated viewpoint that doesn't hold up with modern hockey. And I feel thankful our GM believes an elite goalie is a cornerstone to the franchise, because even if Cossa falters, he'll keep trying. So the "never 1st round goalie" folks need to hope and pray Cossa works out, otherwise I guarantee he'll try again.

Yzerman acquiring a 1st rd pick to draft a goalie he likes? Last time he did that he picked the best goalie in the world today. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Probably because apparently we won't have any high end centers so we're gonna need a goalie that can win all by himself. It's the Montreal model. Just wait until Cossa is looking for an 8 x$12 contract and then becomes Bobrovsky or Luongo or Holtby or....on and on and on.

Please, continue that list.

Also, Bobrovsky won multiple Vezinas. Luongo was a finalist for several and came within a game of a Cup win the one time he actually had a legit team. Holtby won a Cup. You’re barking up the wrong tree here.

Really? Look at other teams that rebuilt recently.
Edmonton McDavid-Draisaitl
Toronto Marner-Mathews
Buffalo Eichel-Dahlin
Colorado McKinnon-Makar

We don't have any prospects equal to those. Maybe Raymond is an elite wing. That's hardly a core. We need at least two elite players and at least one needs to be a center. But hey we may or may not have a decent goalie in 5 years.

Seider is an elite defenseman prospect. I wouldn’t put him far behind Dahlin and Makar here as prospects go.

And also… “we don’t have one of those”. Guess what… we also didn’t have a pick that could land one of those.

The only players drafted with the same assets Detroit had were Marner and Makar. Who aren’t elite Cs.

And man, again, you’re really not good at this argument thing. The samples you choose to point out are awful. Toronto and Buffalo have won as many playoff series as we have since they started their rebuilds. I don’t really want to follow that. Edmonton has bar none the best player in hockey and another top 5C and they’re a complete playoff non-entity.

So, you ignore context, you pick examples that shoot your own argument in the foot, and you’re sticking to a ludicrous belief that we’re just gonna suck for 7-10 years for… reasons.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

And also… am I supposed to believe if the ping pong balls had bounced just a little different in the past two-three years and we didn’t lose 8 draft slots that you’d be fine with the way the build is happening? Like we didn’t miss out on the two elite Cs (Byfield and Stutzle) because luck or a couple of the elite Cs in Seider’s draft year (Dach or Turcotte) or had gone Zegras or Cozens, so now we don’t have an elite D prospect, you’d be fine with the build? Or would you bitch about us missing the defenseman then?

 

[TheOctopusKid]

It does raise a good point - in the modern era, are team generally limited in the way they get to the Cup? I've always been in the boat of "Build down the middle - Elite 1st line C, Top 2nd line C - As good of a Top 4 as you can - Don't Spend on Goalie"

But honestly, I think that's my own bias and maybe isn't actually reflective of how teams are built and win. This deserves my exploration on my part.

 

[Syckle78]

I gotta laugh at the thought of anyone thinking they know more about the value of goalies than the gm who spent the first half of his career playing with a never ending line of goalies jumping out of a clown car to take their turn in net. I would love to see the look on his face if someone walked up to him and told him goalies are a dime a dozen.

This is the same guy who was mocked and derided by the brain trust on hf boards after his first big move in Tampa. The Bishop trade thread was filled with pointing and laughing at the noob gm that traded the future up and coming 40 goal scorer for the unproven goalie in Ottawa. I'm going to go out on a limb and venture that Yzerman does not see goalies as a dime a dozen and values the position a great deal.