News Article: Kris Draper, has been promoted to the Red Wings’ director of Amateur Scouting.

[Revenge of Gru]

I’m not diminishing it. I’m saying that we got him for a 3rd because he’s not guaranteed to be a fabulous goalie. It’s an incredible trade because it was very low risk. He is pretty much set to be a starting goalie and we got it for a third. But getting Nedeljkovic didn’t fix our problems in net. He’s no less a stopgap than every other guy that you have bitched about endlessly. He’s potentially more talented, but he is a stopgap nonetheless

Cossa isn't guaranteed to even make the NHL and we gave a lot more than a 3rd. You're making the case for why taking a goalie at 15th is a reckless move. You can't even say a 25 year old who has shown dominant performances in the NHL is going to be good in the NHL.

 

[better Red than Dead]

They're worried someone will call into question their credibility if they are wrong.

Or they are worried about having their hearts broken because we Wings fans were gaslighted by Holland and company from 2011 to 2017 about our prospects.

Or they are simply unable to assess a player's talents by picking apart their play by watching them. Anyone with eyes knows that Seider isn't just physical. He flat out tilts the ice whenever he's on.

Or...they are just look to keep posting negativity all the time to stir the pot.

I just can’t see how Seider won’t be, at worst, a Kronwall/Vladdy clone, and at his best, a top 5 defenseman in this league. I know you get it though

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I just can’t see how Seider won’t be, at worst, a Kronwall/Vladdy clone, and at his best, a top 5 defenseman in this league. I know you get it though

See my 3rd and 4th points in that post. I think that it's more the 4th point over the last few weeks than anything.

I don't know if it's just a summer malais as we wait for training camp and the season to start but the Red Wings forum seems much more contentious than usual right now.

 

[better Red than Dead]

See my 3rd and 4th points in that post. I think that it's more the 4th point over the last few weeks than anything.

I don't know if it's just a summer malais as we wait for training camp and the season to start but the Red Wings forum seems much more contentious than usual right now.

Scott Wheeler from the Athletic had him rated as the 3rd best defensive prospect, totally outrageous

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Scott Wheeler from the Athletic had him rated as the 3rd best defensive prospect, totally outrageous

I know. And we all know that Wheeler has his bias. He prefers flash over substance, and any pick from this year's draft is better than any pick from last year's draft. It's funny to me that non-wings fans are asking Wheeler what he's smoking with some of those selections on his list.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

I just can’t see how Seider won’t be, at worst, a Kronwall/Vladdy clone, and at his best, a top 5 defenseman in this league. I know you get it though

Kronwall/Vladdy clone? That's a bizarre comparison. Which is it? Kronwall or Vladdy?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Cossa isn't guaranteed to even make the NHL and we gave a lot more than a 3rd. You're making the case for why taking a goalie at 15th is a reckless move. You can't even say a 25 year old who has shown dominant performances in the NHL is going to be good in the NHL.

No. I am making no such case. I'm saying that as good as picking up Nedeljkovic for a third was... he's not a silver bullet and it doesn't make goalie not a need.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

No. I am making no such case. I'm saying that as good as picking up Nedeljkovic for a third was... he's not a silver bullet and it doesn't make goalie not a need.

A 25 year old kid that put up a .928 over 23 games in the NHL for a 3rd is low risk high reward move. A 15th overall for any goalie is a high risk low reward move. It really is that simple. If it wasn't Yzerman making that move many more would be agreeing with me because I am right and that gives my argument that extra oomph!

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

A 25 year old kid that put up a .928 over 23 games in the NHL for a 3rd is low risk high reward move. A 15th overall for any goalie is a high risk low reward move. It really is that simple. If it wasn't Yzerman making that move many more would be agreeing with me because I am right and that gives my argument that extra oomph!

Your first sentence is correct. It is a low risk, high reward move. It was a great move.

Your second sentence is complete bullshit. Why is it low reward if Nedeljkovic is high reward? Cossa has a much higher peak upside than Nedeljkovic. Goalies are, as you'll be aware about, are notoriously flaky. So, .928 25 year old could easily be a .900 26 year old without anything actually going super wrong.

And yes, Yzerman gets a little bit of leeway because he has made fantastic moves over the past decade. So, if he pushes for something and takes a risk, we're going to trust it more than Holland who had them blow up in his face a dozen times from 2013-2016. Your argument is complete crap and nobody is currently agreeing with you because your argument sucks, not because we "love Yzerman".

Cossa is a high risk, high reward pick. If he hits, we've got a stud goalie for a decade. If he flops, then yeah, it was a huge mistake. But more and more and more, goalies taken early have been big time. Vasilevskiy, Price, Fleury, Varlamov, each of these guys were first round picks.

Scouting of goalies is getting better.

And refusing to take a goalie in the first round because once upon a time you drafted Thomas McCollum there would be like "I'm not going to take a C if I'm drafting in the 20s because I took Riley Sheahan". "I'm not going to take a winger with a top 5 pick because Cs are worth more.. whoops, I missed out on Mitch Marner for Dylan Strome."

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Your first sentence is correct. It is a low risk, high reward move. It was a great move.

Your second sentence is complete bullshit. Why is it low reward if Nedeljkovic is high reward? Cossa has a much higher peak upside than Nedeljkovic. Goalies are, as you'll be aware about, are notoriously flaky. So, .928 25 year old could easily be a .900 26 year old without anything actually going super wrong.

And yes, Yzerman gets a little bit of leeway because he has made fantastic moves over the past decade. So, if he pushes for something and takes a risk, we're going to trust it more than Holland who had them blow up in his face a dozen times from 2013-2016. Your argument is complete crap and nobody is currently agreeing with you because your argument sucks, not because we "love Yzerman".

Cossa is a high risk, high reward pick. If he hits, we've got a stud goalie for a decade. If he flops, then yeah, it was a huge mistake. But more and more and more, goalies taken early have been big time. Vasilevskiy, Price, Fleury, Varlamov, each of these guys were first round picks.

Scouting of goalies is getting better.

And refusing to take a goalie in the first round because once upon a time you drafted Thomas McCollum there would be like "I'm not going to take a C if I'm drafting in the 20s because I took Riley Sheahan". "I'm not going to take a winger with a top 5 pick because Cs are worth more.. whoops, I missed out on Mitch Marner for Dylan Strome."

You seem to ignore that Yzerman has also made horrendous moves. He's has blundered most of his high picks with Seider being the possible exception. He has signed somenterrible contracts and he has never won a Stanley Cup as a GM. If you actually look at the cup winning rosters in Tampa you will find a large percentage of players that weren't acquired by Yzerman. Sure he hit on some late picks but we don't have the scouts that he had in Tampa. Most of the players we have that people are considering the core that's gonna take off were drafted under Wright. Yzerman is a decent GM but nowhere near the god like status he is credited with. This is the guy that took Brett Connoly 3rd overall. This is the guy that signed the Callahan deal.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

You seem to ignore that Yzerman has also made horrendous moves. He's has blundered most of his high picks with Seider being the possible exception. He has signed somenterrible contracts and he has never won a Stanley Cup as a GM. If you actually look at the cup winning rosters in Tampa you will find a large percentage of players that weren't acquired by Yzerman. Sure he hit on some late picks but we don't have the scouts that he had in Tampa. Most of the players we have that people are considering the core that's gonna take off were drafted under Wright. Yzerman is a decent GM but nowhere near the god like status he is credited with. This is the guy that took Brett Connoly 3rd overall. This is the guy that signed the Callahan deal.

A large (Brayden Point) percentage of the players (Ondrej Palat) weren't acquired (Andrei Vasilevskiy) by Steve Yzerman /s (Nikita Kucherov). The core players that (Alex Killorn) make up the (Yanni Gourde) roster couldn't possibly (Ryan McDonagh) have been added (Tyler Johnson) by Steve Yzerman.

Yzerman is an upper end GM in the league. He's not infallible, obviously, but his good so drastically outweighs the bad that you take the possiblity that he's going to make a bad move because he's usually going to make more good than bad.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

You seem to ignore that Yzerman has also made horrendous moves. He's has blundered most of his high picks with Seider being the possible exception. He has signed somenterrible contracts and he has never won a Stanley Cup as a GM. If you actually look at the cup winning rosters in Tampa you will find a large percentage of players that weren't acquired by Yzerman. Sure he hit on some late picks but we don't have the scouts that he had in Tampa. Most of the players we have that people are considering the core that's gonna take off were drafted under Wright. Yzerman is a decent GM but nowhere near the god like status he is credited with. This is the guy that took Brett Connoly 3rd overall. This is the guy that signed the Callahan deal.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm marking up the "mistakes" or whatnot as failed opportunities. But he didn't just say "well, f***, I signed bad deals, better close up shop. He kept dealing until he made good deals. If your standard is a GM that never makes a mistake for him being a good GM? Well, there aren't any good GMs in the league then.

 

[BinCookin]

Oaf. Do you think we should have signed Ullmark for 5.5Mx5 years?
How do you expect to get a goalie at all?

The best goalies are locked up long term OR you overpay big time in UFA.

Since you seem to be on this kick of 1st and 2nd round goalies are a waste of space... lets just take a good look at that analysis:

2019: Knight selected 13th. (2nd rounders: kotchetkov, Sogaard, Jones)
Knight has played a few games, no other goalie in 2019 has played any NHL games

2018: Not a single goalie in first round, not a single goalie in the entire draft has played an NHL game except 1 Arizona guy who got 3 games due to injuries of all their goalies.

2017: 26th OA first rounder Oettinger (is looking like a solid goalie for Dallas).
in the 2nd round: you have UP Luukonen (Buffalo). Who has been getting some praise.
Jeremy Swayman 4th rounder, looked good in 10 games for Boston. But they did just sign Ullmark so Swayman won't be a starter there. But we will see. Cayden Primeau is a 7th rounder for MTL, has done well. But Oettinger is still looking like the obvious pick for G that year.

2016: Top Goalie taken is in Round 2, Carter Hart, who has looked good for a few years, and horrid last year. In either case he is the starter in Philly. 3 other 2nd rounders didn't pan out, and also I see no other good goalies from that entire year.

2015: Ilya Samsonov first rounder taken 22nd OA. Looking like a solid goalie starter for WSH, who sold off on Holtby for their new horse. In the 2nd round you have Mackenzie Blackwood, who was the starter last year in NJ, and maybe splits this year with Bernier.
From the 3rd round you have Adin Hill, and Montembault. I think we would all take Samsonov and Blackwood over those 2, the rest of the draft is all goalie busts.

I mean honestly, the top Goalie picks are always the best goalies so far... But lets keep going

2014: Round 2: MacDonald (bust?) Nedeljkovic, Demko, Vanecek, (all taken early in the 2nd round. Demko now the starter in Vancouver, Nedeljkovic just had a Calder level season (due to Carolina?) and Vanecek just played a solid season in WSH. These are the top goalies in 2014, and clearly they were all well scouted (except macdonald)
Round 3: Merzlikins and Sorokin. Alright finally finding some decent goalies in 3rd round..
Round 4: Kahkonen and Shesterkin. I mean looks like this was the year to draft some goalies huh?

2013: This is where there are several goalies taken (4) in round two, and only Jarry works out.
3 more in round 3 that all failed. Before we find Saros in round 4. However there are 3 other busts in round 4. Petersen is in round 5, with some more busts. So this year the late rounds actually win.


I wont continue because this is beginning to waste my time. But overall I would NOT say taking goalies early is a flaw. It seems that many of the 1st/2nd round goalies do in fact work out. Yes sometimes we find gems in the later rounds... but many many busts down there too. I think drafting a goalie early is an ok move... Its not like picking skaters has no risk of busting either. And it doesn't appear as though goalies busting is any more likely than skaters.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Oaf. Do you think we should have signed Ullmark for 5.5Mx5 years?
How do you expect to get a goalie at all?

The best goalies are locked up long term OR you overpay big time in UFA.

Since you seem to be on this kick of 1st and 2nd round goalies are a waste of space... lets just take a good look at that analysis:

2019: Knight selected 13th. (2nd rounders: kotchetkov, Sogaard, Jones)
Knight has played a few games, no other goalie in 2019 has played any NHL games

2018: Not a single goalie in first round, not a single goalie in the entire draft has played an NHL game except 1 Arizona guy who got 3 games due to injuries of all their goalies.

2017: 26th OA first rounder Oettinger (is looking like a solid goalie for Dallas).
in the 2nd round: you have UP Luukonen (Buffalo). Who has been getting some praise.
Jeremy Swayman 4th rounder, looked good in 10 games for Boston. But they did just sign Ullmark so Swayman won't be a starter there. But we will see. Cayden Primeau is a 7th rounder for MTL, has done well. But Oettinger is still looking like the obvious pick for G that year.

2016: Top Goalie taken is in Round 2, Carter Hart, who has looked good for a few years, and horrid last year. In either case he is the starter in Philly. 3 other 2nd rounders didn't pan out, and also I see no other good goalies from that entire year.

2015: Ilya Samsonov first rounder taken 22nd OA. Looking like a solid goalie starter for WSH, who sold off on Holtby for their new horse. In the 2nd round you have Mackenzie Blackwood, who was the starter last year in NJ, and maybe splits this year with Bernier.
From the 3rd round you have Adin Hill, and Montembault. I think we would all take Samsonov and Blackwood over those 2, the rest of the draft is all goalie busts.

I mean honestly, the top Goalie picks are always the best goalies so far... But lets keep going

2014: Round 2: MacDonald (bust?) Nedeljkovic, Demko, Vanecek, (all taken early in the 2nd round. Demko now the starter in Vancouver, Nedeljkovic just had a Calder level season (due to Carolina?) and Vanecek just played a solid season in WSH. These are the top goalies in 2014, and clearly they were all well scouted (except macdonald)
Round 3: Merzlikins and Sorokin. Alright finally finding some decent goalies in 3rd round..
Round 4: Kahkonen and Shesterkin. I mean looks like this was the year to draft some goalies huh?

2013: This is where there are several goalies taken (4) in round two, and only Jarry works out.
3 more in round 3 that all failed. Before we find Saros in round 4. However there are 3 other busts in round 4. Petersen is in round 5, with some more busts. So this year the late rounds actually win.


I wont continue because this is beginning to waste my time. But overall I would NOT say taking goalies early is a flaw. It seems that many of the 1st/2nd round goalies do in fact work out. Yes sometimes we find gems in the later rounds... but many many busts down there too. I think drafting a goalie early is an ok move... Its not like picking skaters has no risk of busting either. And it doesn't appear as though goalies busting is any more likely than skaters.

The lesson here is that while a first round goalie can very easily bust like Tom McCollum... it doesn't mean that you never take a 1st round goalie ever again in life.

Just like if you're driving home on Michigan Ave. and you get a ticket for speeding because a cop was camped in a speed trap area, you don't avoid Michigan Ave. entirely for the rest of your life.

 

[Frk It]

You seem to ignore that Yzerman has also made horrendous moves. He's has blundered most of his high picks with Seider being the possible exception. He has signed somenterrible contracts and he has never won a Stanley Cup as a GM. If you actually look at the cup winning rosters in Tampa you will find a large percentage of players that weren't acquired by Yzerman. Sure he hit on some late picks but we don't have the scouts that he had in Tampa. Most of the players we have that people are considering the core that's gonna take off were drafted under Wright. Yzerman is a decent GM but nowhere near the god like status he is credited with. This is the guy that took Brett Connoly 3rd overall. This is the guy that signed the Callahan deal.

It's also the guy that the last time he acquired an additional 1st rounder, and then used it on a goalie, got one of the top 5 goalies in the league in Vasilevskiy.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

I'm not ignoring it. I'm marking up the "mistakes" or whatnot as failed opportunities. But he didn't just say "well, f***, I signed bad deals, better close up shop. He kept dealing until he made good deals. If your standard is a GM that never makes a mistake for him being a good GM? Well, there aren't any good GMs in the league then.

Yet you constantly rip Holland after 4 cups with the franchise. Makes sense.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Oaf. Do you think we should have signed Ullmark for 5.5Mx5 years?
How do you expect to get a goalie at all?

The best goalies are locked up long term OR you overpay big time in UFA.

Since you seem to be on this kick of 1st and 2nd round goalies are a waste of space... lets just take a good look at that analysis:

2019: Knight selected 13th. (2nd rounders: kotchetkov, Sogaard, Jones)
Knight has played a few games, no other goalie in 2019 has played any NHL games

2018: Not a single goalie in first round, not a single goalie in the entire draft has played an NHL game except 1 Arizona guy who got 3 games due to injuries of all their goalies.

2017: 26th OA first rounder Oettinger (is looking like a solid goalie for Dallas).
in the 2nd round: you have UP Luukonen (Buffalo). Who has been getting some praise.
Jeremy Swayman 4th rounder, looked good in 10 games for Boston. But they did just sign Ullmark so Swayman won't be a starter there. But we will see. Cayden Primeau is a 7th rounder for MTL, has done well. But Oettinger is still looking like the obvious pick for G that year.

2016: Top Goalie taken is in Round 2, Carter Hart, who has looked good for a few years, and horrid last year. In either case he is the starter in Philly. 3 other 2nd rounders didn't pan out, and also I see no other good goalies from that entire year.

2015: Ilya Samsonov first rounder taken 22nd OA. Looking like a solid goalie starter for WSH, who sold off on Holtby for their new horse. In the 2nd round you have Mackenzie Blackwood, who was the starter last year in NJ, and maybe splits this year with Bernier.
From the 3rd round you have Adin Hill, and Montembault. I think we would all take Samsonov and Blackwood over those 2, the rest of the draft is all goalie busts.

I mean honestly, the top Goalie picks are always the best goalies so far... But lets keep going

2014: Round 2: MacDonald (bust?) Nedeljkovic, Demko, Vanecek, (all taken early in the 2nd round. Demko now the starter in Vancouver, Nedeljkovic just had a Calder level season (due to Carolina?) and Vanecek just played a solid season in WSH. These are the top goalies in 2014, and clearly they were all well scouted (except macdonald)
Round 3: Merzlikins and Sorokin. Alright finally finding some decent goalies in 3rd round..
Round 4: Kahkonen and Shesterkin. I mean looks like this was the year to draft some goalies huh?

2013: This is where there are several goalies taken (4) in round two, and only Jarry works out.
3 more in round 3 that all failed. Before we find Saros in round 4. However there are 3 other busts in round 4. Petersen is in round 5, with some more busts. So this year the late rounds actually win.


I wont continue because this is beginning to waste my time. But overall I would NOT say taking goalies early is a flaw. It seems that many of the 1st/2nd round goalies do in fact work out. Yes sometimes we find gems in the later rounds... but many many busts down there too. I think drafting a goalie early is an ok move... Its not like picking skaters has no risk of busting either. And it doesn't appear as though goalies busting is any more likely than skaters.

I'm good with taking a flyer after the 1st rd. 2nds are fine imo. 15th overall is too much risk for a team without a core or identity.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

It's also the guy that the last time he acquired an additional 1st rounder, and then used it on a goalie, got one of the top 5 goalies in the league in Vasilevskiy.

That's true but he already had the core of the team.

 

[better Red than Dead]

Kronwall/Vladdy clone? That's a bizarre comparison. Which is it? Kronwall or Vladdy?

In regards to physical play, they were the most punishing dmen to play in Detroit in the last 30 years. Seider is bigger than both of them, and loves to be physical. So at worst he will be a physical top pairing defenseman

 

[better Red than Dead]

You seem to ignore that Yzerman has also made horrendous moves. He's has blundered most of his high picks with Seider being the possible exception. He has signed somenterrible contracts and he has never won a Stanley Cup as a GM. If you actually look at the cup winning rosters in Tampa you will find a large percentage of players that weren't acquired by Yzerman. Sure he hit on some late picks but we don't have the scouts that he had in Tampa. Most of the players we have that people are considering the core that's gonna take off were drafted under Wright. Yzerman is a decent GM but nowhere near the god like status he is credited with. This is the guy that took Brett Connoly 3rd overall. This is the guy that signed the Callahan deal.

blundered? Explain

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Yet you constantly rip Holland after 4 cups with the franchise. Makes sense.

Because he did a pisspoor job with the Wings from 11-12 on. Because he signed guys to contracts that did not deserve that much money at their best for 5 to 7 years. Because he traded away constantly picks for rentals that played five games in Detroit.

You clearly have never written a thing I've ever posted if you think I'm ripping Holland. Normally, I'm one of the ones most supporting him. Ken Holland is a great GM who got complacent and got himself in a place he needed to pull ten rabbits out of one hat to be successful in Detroit and he found his stovepipe hat had worn through.

He was absolutely one of the best GMs in hockey for the beginning of the salary cap era. He was amazing at keeping a team with assets rolling at the top. But he just failed at replacing irreplaceable guys.

Hell, I've defended Holland to the hilt with the exception of signing Abby to the 7 year, 4.5M and Helm to the 5 year, 3.85M deals. Those were both a complete and total farce that I can't defend.

One of these days I'll learn. I'll learn to stop giving you all the benefit of the doubt that you're going to argue on a level that uses logic and that you'll be worth having a discussion with.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

blundered? Explain

I did.

 

[SCD]

I just can’t see how Seider won’t be, at worst, a Kronwall/Vladdy clone, and at his best, a top 5 defenseman in this league. I know you get it though

Vladimir Konstantinov was a top 5 defenseman in the NHL.

 

[better Red than Dead]

Vladimir Konstantinov was a top 5 defenseman in the NHL.

I know, I was referencing just the physical play

 

[Revenge of Gru]

A large (Brayden Point) percentage of the players (Ondrej Palat) weren't acquired (Andrei Vasilevskiy) by Steve Yzerman /s (Nikita Kucherov). The core players that (Alex Killorn) make up the (Yanni Gourde) roster couldn't possibly (Ryan McDonagh) have been added (Tyler Johnson) by Steve Yzerman.

Yzerman is an upper end GM in the league. He's not infallible, obviously, but his good so drastically outweighs the bad that you take the possiblity that he's going to make a bad move because he's usually going to make more good than bad.

I didn't go look at actual numbers. So 8 out of 23 eh? Huh... I would have thought at least close to half.