Post-Game Talk: Kings @ Sens Dec. 11. Phillips Falls A Lot Edition

[operasen]

And have CM goto Arizona...how would that help us lol

especially when they move up to Las Vegas

 

[Niv]

Why is this written like a Star Wars intro.

A short time ago

In a farm field far, far away

The Ottawa Senators realized they couldn't play defence.​

 

[Benjamin]

A short time ago

In a farm field far, far away

The Ottawa Senators realized they couldn't play defence.​

I dont think the organization realizes the defense sucks.

 

[operasen]

I dont think the organization realizes the defense sucks.

They need to turn the D to the dark side.

 

[Micklebot]

And have CM goto Arizona...how would that help us lol

That lottery system took us from drafting somewhere around 24th to 9th. We did very well, while Pittsburgh was last in the league the previous season and one of he odds on favourites to get that pick anyways.

Imo, we won the lottery, more so than any other team not named SJ. Montreal and Vancouver did very well too.

Funny part is, the teams that probably were gifted a great position the most (Ottawa, SJ, Van) didn't manage to come out with much to show for it (Lee, Setoguchi, Bourdon RIP).

 

[Micklebot]

I dont think the organization realizes the defense sucks.

Murray called it disturbing, I'm sure he has a suspicion,

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Tired of losing, tired of seeing the same defensive mistakes by ALL our dmen.

How could the majority of the Sens fans see how bad our D-core was going to be at the start of the season and management not see this? Even in the lastest media presser Murray said "I don't think our D is that bad"....

Are you ****ing kidding me? Half of them can't skate or pivot. The rest can't cover defensively or make passes. Only Ceci and Karlsson are a real scoring threat on any night. What a joke. Murray needs to be let go for not realizing what most of us already knew. You build a team from the goalie out and this D is just terrible.

So the D is bad because only EK and Ceci are offensive threats??

While I agree Phillips shouldn't be on the top pairing at this point in his career, more likely a 6/7 guy, offense from the back end isn't the problem.

However inserting Cowen or Boro into that spot isn't the best idea either for their development, given how EK is playing the game ATM.

Fact is EK is all over the ice and attempting too many high risk plays and turning over pucks and getting caught out of position too often.

While EK may feel the need to make something good happen every shift, the results suggest he needs to be more patient/disciplined.

In no way am I suggesting EK is the only problem, absolutely not.

However when the team's "best player" is playing 28 - 30 minutes a game and is playing in a high risk fashion, the end result is likely not going to be positive.

IMO regardless of how Phillips, Ceci, Cowen, Gryba, Wiercoich or Boro are playing, EK needs to be better for the team to improve.

 

[bigsby]

Anyone else notice that sick rush by Lazar in the 3rd?

The guy just took off and blew by both teams. I didn't know he was that fast!

He flew coast to coast. Even when they were back in the D zone, I had to triple take to make sure it was Lazar's numbers that I saw whistle down the ice previously. Couldn't believe it.

 

[Upgrayedd]

That lottery system took us from drafting somewhere around 24th to 9th. We did very well, while Pittsburgh was last in the league the previous season and one of he odds on favourites to get that pick anyways.

Imo, we won the lottery, more so than any other team not named SJ. Montreal and Vancouver did very well too.

Funny part is, the teams that probably were gifted a great position the most (Ottawa, SJ, Van) didn't manage to come out with much to show for it (Lee, Setoguchi, Bourdon RIP).

Yeah still pissed at that draft because we took a scrub and most knew it and lost the season before which would have been a strong one for the club imo.

 

[DylanSensFan]

I dont think the organization realizes the defense sucks.

What was Gryba doing copying Phillips? Maybe if Gryba didn't also lay down and wave his stick around, we'd be telling a different story?

 

[Micklebot]

So the D is bad because only EK and Ceci are offensive threats??

While I agree Phillips shouldn't be on the top pairing at this point in his career, more likely a 6/7 guy, offense from the back end isn't the problem.

However inserting Cowen or Boro into that spot isn't the best idea either for their development, given how EK is playing the game ATM.

Fact is EK is all over the ice and attempting too many high risk plays and turning over pucks and getting caught out of position too often.

While EK may feel the need to make something good happen every shift, the results suggest he needs to be more patient/disciplined.

In no way am I suggesting EK is the only problem, absolutely not.

However when the team's "best player" is playing 28 - 30 minutes a game and is playing in a high risk fashion, the end result is likely not going to be positive.

IMO regardless of how Phillips, Ceci, Cowen, Gryba, Wiercoich or Boro are playing, EK needs to be better for the team to improve.

I'd like to track Karlsson's high risk plays by situation. It seems to me that many of his higher risk plays come when the team is trailing which imo is only natural. I would expect that Subban, Pietrangelo, Doughty, and Weber all likely play a bit higher risk when trailing as well, the difference being that we aren't as good, so we are trailing more often.

Karlsson certainly plays a higher risk game right off the bat too, but the difference is likely exagerated by the situation, or at least that's my suspicion.

 

[God Says No]

What was Gryba doing copying Phillips? Maybe if Gryba didn't also lay down and wave his stick around, we'd be telling a different story?

Yeah, it was a cluster**** of a play. Turris plays lazy defense, Phillips falls down, so Gryba falls down...

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

dave reid is a REAL moron

blaming ryan and turris for the 4th goal and NO f.... mention of phillips

I did not enjoy those 2 panelists. Seemed like jerks with agendas to bash the team hard.

Wow Buffalo is three points behind us.

Now that is eye opening.

No kidding. Sad part is, though, is that there are still 9 teams in the league worse than us.

Now that's truly pitiful.

Tired of losing, tired of seeing the same defensive mistakes by ALL our dmen.

How could the majority of the Sens fans see how bad our D-core was going to be at the start of the season and management not see this? Even in the lastest media presser Murray said "I don't think our D is that bad"....

Are you ****ing kidding me? Half of them can't skate or pivot. The rest can't cover defensively or make passes. Only Ceci and Karlsson are a real scoring threat on any night. What a joke. Murray needs to be let go for not realizing what most of us already knew. You build a team from the goalie out and this D is just terrible.

You better get used to it. I just SMH every time I hear Murray is in on talks for bringing in a forward. We haven't addressed our D issue since Gonchar left.

Zack smith still looked lost tonight. Expect a coachin change in the morning.

Poor guy.. I expect he will find his way off the team in the next year or so if his current play continues.

Oh ya, Greening. Guy was decent tonight.

Greening had a solid game. Coach was saying how this might be a good match up for him, and he was right.

I honestly have no idea why we do it.

Lack of better options, plain and simple. With Methot out, you're stuck playing a bottom pairing defender on the top line no matter what.

Looks like a team that's 30th in spending to me. I've criticized him in the past but it's like there is much flexibility for him to do anything.

Yep. Coach is handcuffed by what his GM gives him, and the GM is handcuffed by what the owner gives him. Sure we have a few bad contracts, every team does, and most teams have worse ones. It's just extra crippling to us due to the budget.

Why can't he have something that costs money when he doesn't have money to spend? The answer seems pretty straightforward, so I'll just give a quick analogy.

Let's say you expect to drive a Ferrari. You don't have the money, so you get a Lada instead because it fits your budget. Maybe the Lada manages to pass a car on the highway now and again, which makes you happy when it happens. Maybe you are the type who can convince yourself to believe that the Lada is passing a whole bunch of cars when, in fact, you are slowly chugging through a lot and the other cars are parked. Being a Lada, the Lada does Lada things, like billowing smoke or lurching forward every time you put it in 1st.

Everything is fine so long as you recognize that you are not driving a Ferrari. Things get weird when you start to make yourself believe that the Lada is actually a Ferrari, or that your budget can get a car that is on par with a Ferrari.

I was NOT expecting to see a Lada in here. Well done. And that analogy is superb.

they double shifted karlsson a lot cause cowen was in the box which might be why you saw him with ceci. I think they might have switched Boro and Phillips at some point aswell

we really need another offensive dmen imo. Ceci might get there one day but he isn't there yet

By all accounts, Wideman is coming along nicely.

bob mackenzie said today that murray has been trying to find deals to improve his team

there is just nothing worth it out there

Dealing from a position of weakness. It's one of the reasons the Oilers haven't been able to pull off any deals. Aside from the fact that they overvalue and seem to enjoy tanking/staying the course right now.


Random musing: There is a definite separation between playoff hopefulls and teams that are just lost causes in the league standings. We managed to drop about 6 spots in the matter of a week when we lost a few games in a row. This occurred when we stopped keeping pace with the playoff teams, and quickly lost our wildcard seed. Now, even though we're 2-7-1 in our last 10, it seems like we've held down the #21 spot for ages.

 

[arglebargle]

IMO regardless of how Phillips, Ceci, Cowen, Gryba, Wiercoich or Boro are playing, EK needs to be better for the team to improve.

I agree he could be better but it's unrealistic to expect that to happen while he's being asked to play 28 shifts a game at one minute each. Simply demanding that he play better isn't going to make him play better, you actually have to make some tangible change so he can do it.

What will make EK better is shortening his shifts from 60 seconds to about 45-50 seconds, never wasting him on the PK and giving him an extra ES shift or two per game. Then we'd get a much more effective EK for 25 minutes, instead of a tired EK for 30 minutes/game.

The problem is that an extra 3-4 minutes of Gryba every game is way worse than 3-4 minutes of a tired EK. That's why they're using the players this way in the first place.

What they need to do is jettison Phillips and Gryba replace them with a decent pair of NHL D-men.

 

[heat89]

My strong dislike for Phillips is only growing stronger.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

I'd like to track Karlsson's high risk plays by situation. It seems to me that many of his higher risk plays come when the team is trailing which imo is only natural. I would expect that Subban, Pietrangelo, Doughty, and Weber all likely play a bit higher risk when trailing as well, the difference being that we aren't as good, so we are trailing more often.

Karlsson certainly plays a higher risk game right off the bat too, but the difference is likely exagerated by the situation, or at least that's my suspicion.

You may be right, but I'm not sure that this is the case.

While I can't disagree all the top offensive players have a higher turnover rate, EK just isn't playing with any structure to his game.

He is all over the ice taking inordinate risk and it just hasn't brought positive results.

So while it may be in vogue to criticize Phillips or the D in general after every loss, the fact is EK isn't playing close to his potential which is more disconcerting to me than Phillips falling down or Gryba doing the breast stroke on the ice.

 

[The Lewler]

Yeah, it was a cluster**** of a play. Turris plays lazy defense, Phillips falls down, so Gryba falls down...

Gryba clearly guessed that a quick pass was coming, and went down to take the pass away.

Wasn't the worst choice in the world given the circumstances, (mainly your D partner just falling down and giving them a short 3-1) It was just poorly timed.

You could also say the LA guy showed poise in holding it that long.

**** happens, it's a low percentage play for a D-man to stop there, and Gryba has been playing just fine.

Philly on the other hand.. apparently he don't do pivots anymore.

 

[Upgrayedd]

I'd like to track Karlsson's high risk plays by situation. It seems to me that many of his higher risk plays come when the team is trailing which imo is only natural. I would expect that Subban, Pietrangelo, Doughty, and Weber all likely play a bit higher risk when trailing as well, the difference being that we aren't as good, so we are trailing more often.

Karlsson certainly plays a higher risk game right off the bat too, but the difference is likely exagerated by the situation, or at least that's my suspicion.

Couldn't agree more with you here as i notice it too....karl tries to do things when we are losing which weirdly has been a lot the last little while, that said the media loves to pick on Ottawa (will always maintain the CDN media loves to use the Sens as a punching bag because outside the city everyone hates this place because of politics, hell half the people living here can't say a good thing about it) and the sens, prime example last night with blaiming EK for goals and no mention of the other world class dmans blunders. A lot of the other superstars only get mentioned when doing awesome things, when they make mistakes usually nobody mentions it, with Karl its the opposite.

 

[Micklebot]

You may be right, but I'm not sure that this is the case.

While I can't disagree all the top offensive players have a higher turnover rate, EK just isn't playing with any structure to his game.

He is all over the ice taking inordinate risk and it just hasn't brought positive results.

So while it may be in vogue to criticize Phillips or the D in general after every loss, the fact is EK isn't playing close to his potential which is more disconcerting to me than Phillips falling down or Gryba doing the breast stroke on the ice.

Karlsson is our best player, and we all know he can do better. So I agree that his play is concerning, and if he were to play up to the standard we expect, we'd be much better off.

That said, when Phillips is getting top pair mins and playing like a fringe bottom pair defender we have a problem. At the best of times, he makes basic passes up the ice that any defender should and is generally in position to make a defensive play. The problem is when he's fumbling the puck around, making poor passes, chiping up the boards but not getting it out, getting beaten by speed and tripping over his own feet. I can live with that from a bottom pair defender, but you don't play a bottom pair defender against top lines and 20 mins a night.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Karlsson can't be at his best when his partners are not reliable

It isn't complicated

Get him someone he can depend on and he'll be much more effective

Getting Methot back into the lineup or getting someone else to fill in that role is borderline urgent now and I'm not sure we have any prospects that are on the cusp of being the partner he needs

 

[dpw]

Couldn't agree more with you here as i notice it too....karl tries to do things when we are losing which weirdly has been a lot the last little while, that said the media loves to pick on Ottawa (will always maintain the CDN media loves to use the Sens as a punching bag because outside the city everyone hates this place because of politics, hell half the people living here can't say a good thing about it) and the sens, prime example last night with blaiming EK for goals and no mention of the other world class dmans blunders. A lot of the other superstars only get mentioned when doing awesome things, when they make mistakes usually nobody mentions it, with Karl its the opposite.

That's because Karl makes mistakes all the fricken time, every game.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

I agree he could be better but it's unrealistic to expect that to happen while he's being asked to play 28 shifts a game at one minute each. Simply demanding that he play better isn't going to make him play better, you actually have to make some tangible change so he can do it.

What will make EK better is shortening his shifts from 60 seconds to about 45-50 seconds, never wasting him on the PK and giving him an extra ES shift or two per game. Then we'd get a much more effective EK for 25 minutes, instead of a tired EK for 30 minutes/game.

The problem is that an extra 3-4 minutes of Gryba every game is way worse than 3-4 minutes of a tired EK. That's why they're using the players this way in the first place.

What they need to do is jettison Phillips and Gryba replace them with a decent pair of NHL D-men.

Not sure EK's problems are solely related to his ice time.

Secondly it isn't EK having to cover up for Phillips or any of the other D 99% of the time.

IMO it is disingenuous to look at Gryba or Phillips as a way to defend EK's play.

EK has an order of magnitude more skill than either of these players, yet other than the occasional flashes of brilliance isn't playing close to his potential IMO.

 

[God Says No]

Not sure EK's problems are solely related to his ice time.

Secondly it isn't EK having to cover up for Phillips or any of the other D 99% of the time.

IMO it is disingenuous to look at Gryba or Phillips as a way to defend EK's play.

EK has an order of magnitude more skill than either of these players, yet other than the occasional flashes of brilliance isn't playing close to his potential IMO.

Yip, oddly his defensive game has suffered the most due to the injury. Maybe he's not as quick as he think he is. Maybe in his head he's still pre-injury quick and mistimes his plays. Don't know.

 

[arglebargle]

Not sure EK's problems are solely related to his ice time.

Secondly it isn't EK having to cover up for Phillips or any of the other D 99% of the time.

IMO it is disingenuous to look at Gryba or Phillips as a way to defend EK's play.

I'm not arguing that he's "covering up" for those players. My argument is that the coaches have increased his ice time to the point where it's negatively affecting his play because even when he's exhausted Karlsson is still much better their other options.

Like I said, you can just demand that Karlsson control the play, create lots of scoring chances and make no mistakes for 30 minutes every game, but he probably can't do that. My overarching point is that if you need that much out of one guy, your problem isn't that one guy not being good enough, it's that the rest of your roster sucks.

 

[Micklebot]

Not sure EK's problems are solely related to his ice time.

Secondly it isn't EK having to cover up for Phillips or any of the other D 99% of the time.

IMO it is disingenuous to look at Gryba or Phillips as a way to defend EK's play.

EK has an order of magnitude more skill than either of these players, yet other than the occasional flashes of brilliance isn't playing close to his potential IMO.

imo the difference between Karlsson playing with Phillips or Boro and Karlsson playing with Methot (or Kuba back in the day) was he could trust his partner to make a pass or skate the puck out, and the opposition had to respect that. When Karlsson plays with Phillips, the forecheckers can pressure Karlsson much harder.

Karlsson needs to adapt better to playing with those guys, that's on him for sure. That said, with this team being offensively starved, I'm sure he feels he needs to create more offense now than ever before. And that really is the problem; we are asking him to create offense at a higher rate while increasing the pressure on him by limiting his options. It's not that he's playing fine but his partners suck, it's that expectations on him rise because his partner sucks, and the rest of the team can't create enough offense without him.

I think we would probably be ok with Karlsson playing with a guy like Phillips or Boro if we just told him not to worry about offense, just play D and wait for the PP. He could probaly be an even player, but we're not asking that of him, we're asking him to create offense on his own, while handicaped by his partner.