Post-Game Talk: Kings @ Sens Dec. 11. Phillips Falls A Lot Edition

[Holdurbreathe]

Karlsson can't be at his best when his partners are not reliable

It isn't complicated

Get him someone he can depend on and he'll be much more effective

Getting Methot back into the lineup or getting someone else to fill in that role is borderline urgent now and I'm not sure we have any prospects that are on the cusp of being the partner he needs

The problem isn't his partner, its EK.

Methot isn't going to stop the turnovers, poor defensive coverage or high risk plays EK is currently offering up.

IMO expecting four guys to do the work of five in the D-Zone isn't a recipe for success.

It is simple, EK has to make smarter decisions, play within the team structure and take less risk.

Its not like he lacks the skill to do these things, nor does he need a "better" partner to do them.

 

[Cosmix]

I just don't get forcing Phillips on the first pair.

So, what did Cameron do that was different from Maclean?

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Karlsson is our best player, and we all know he can do better. So I agree that his play is concerning, and if he were to play up to the standard we expect, we'd be much better off.

That said, when Phillips is getting top pair mins and playing like a fringe bottom pair defender we have a problem. At the best of times, he makes basic passes up the ice that any defender should and is generally in position to make a defensive play. The problem is when he's fumbling the puck around, making poor passes, chiping up the boards but not getting it out, getting beaten by speed and tripping over his own feet. I can live with that from a bottom pair defender, but you don't play a bottom pair defender against top lines and 20 mins a night.

The problem with this argument is Phillips is a -1, EK is a -12 with their ES TOI very close (3 min/gm delta).

I am not disagreeing with your analysis of Phillips' play and while it is frustrating to watch he generally finds a way to limit the impact of his mistakes, EK not so much.

Phillips, with all his limitations. works hard every shift, does yeomen work in the D-zone attempting to protect EK from the physical play.

Does an adequate job under the circumstances IMO.

Is he the best guy to be there, absolutely not, but to use him as an excuse for EKs play is wrong IMO.

I am not sure why people resist the notion EK has some significant deficiencies in his game ATM and need to be addressed.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

The problem isn't his partner, its EK.

Methot isn't going to stop the turnovers, poor defensive coverage or high risk plays EK is currently offering up.

IMO expecting four guys to do the work of five in the D-Zone isn't a recipe for success.

It is simple, EK has to make smarter decisions, play within the team structure and take less risk.

Its not like he lacks the skill to do these things, nor does he need a "better" partner to do them.

His game is to take risks

All his partner needs to do is mitigate them

No a better partner will not stop the turnovers but he might make them less damaging and allow Karlsson to play with more confidence

Not to say that Karlsson can't be better but I don't think there's enough focus on everybody else's failure to properly support him

 

[Cosmix]

The Bad:
-Every defenceman not named Cowen, Boro and Ceci
-Bounces seemed to go to LA all the time
-Refs suck

The Good:
-Saw what the team can do under Cameron in the first period. Should be obvious that the team should not be expected to uphold Cameron's philosophies in their first game against the defending champs for a full 60
-Definitely had more score chances than the Kings, would have multiple goals if not for Quick and simply being unlucky.

Ceci did screw up on one goal when he covered the man in the high slot and Kopitar skated behind him to take a nice pass and cruise in to score easily.

Bounces did go LA's way.

I still don't know why Cowen got a penalty and the LA player slashed him on the ankle and than was the instigator. Yet the Refs gave Karlsson a slahing penalty prior to that. Yes, the Refs did suck!

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I still don't know why Cowen got a penalty and the LA player slashed him on the ankle and than was the instigator.

That was indeed very, very strange

 

[Holdurbreathe]

So, what did Cameron do that was different from Maclean?

He played Greening?!!

Cameron really has few options roster wise with MacArthur's illness, Michalek on IR and Methot's issue.

While I would expect subtle changes in play, until Murray can find a way to rid the team of 3 or 4 guys and get some new blood I doubt much will change.

IMO Smith, Michalek, Legwand, and even Neil just are providing much other than filling up the 4th line.

Tim Murray said it best, veterans are great to have on a young team but they have to be able to play.

Unfortunately the Sens veterans really aren't contributing much on the ice even if they are great mentors.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Ceci did screw up on one goal when he covered the man in the high slot and Kopitar skated behind him to take a nice pass and cruise in to score easily.

Bounces did go LA's way.

I still don't know why Cowen got a penalty and the LA player slashed him on the ankle and than was the instigator. Yet the Refs gave Karlsson a slahing penalty prior to that. Yes, the Refs did suck!

They refs called it a headshot on the hit before the slash and ensuing fight, even if neither ref signaled a penalty until after the scrap.

I found the one-handed slash they called on Cowen even more puzzling, a brutal call IMO.

NHL officiating is what it is.

 

[BigRig4]

Now that the disappointment of losing is gone, I can rationally say I was really happy with how we played last night. Kings only had 1 shot more than us (good considering some weird penalties called against us) and the score was essentially 4-3 if you don't count the empty netter. Considering they were the defending champs I'm really impressed. We probably win last night againt any other team besides LA or Chicago. Not to mention player usage was SO much better.

 

[Micklebot]

The problem with this argument is Phillips is a -1, EK is a -12 with their ES TOI very close (3 min/gm delta).

I am not disagreeing with your analysis of Phillips' play and while it is frustrating to watch he generally finds a way to limit the impact of his mistakes, EK not so much.

Phillips, with all his limitations. works hard every shift, does yeomen work in the D-zone attempting to protect EK from the physical play.

Does an adequate job under the circumstances IMO.

Is he the best guy to be there, absolutely not, but to use him as an excuse for EKs play is wrong IMO.

I am not sure why people resist the notion EK has some significant deficiencies in his game ATM and need to be addressed.

Here's the problem, when Karlsson is on the ice with Phillips, they are allowing .975 goals against per 60 mins (ES) and have a corsi % of 46.1%. When Karlsson is on the ice with Borowiecki, a rookie, they allow .669 GA/60 and have a CF of 50%.

It's not like this is new, he's never really looked good with Phillips, be it chemistry or just Phillips not being very good any more, it doesn't matter. It may not be Phillips fault, but that pair is attrocious together so why do it?

When Karlson is on the ice with Phillips, the offense dries up, and the defence doesn't get any better. So why do it?

Nobody is say Karlsson doesn't have issues with his game, they are saying that the positves are negated by playing with Phillips and to a lesser extent Boro. Tbh, I'd rather play him with Wiercioch. At least then they can play to their strengths and I'll live with the odd defensive gaffs. Unfortunately, the only time we see them together is late in games when we are down, and it tends to work fairly well (though the other team isn't pushing offesively, so who knows how it would go from start to finish).

 

[Holdurbreathe]

His game is to take risks

All his partner needs to do is mitigate them

No a better partner will not stop the turnovers but he might make them less damaging and allow Karlsson to play with more confidence

Not to say that Karlsson can't be better but I don't think there's enough focus on everybody else's failure to properly support him

Again you may be right, but when a D-man turns pucks over at the defensive blueline, or blows defensive coverages, or is caught too deep in the O-zone it is pretty difficult to cover up.

Cameron was right when he said when a player loses 1 on 1 battles forcing a teammate to cover up, it is equivalent to playing shorthanded.

The same applies when a player is caught position or turns pucks over, it is equivalent to playing shorthanded.

IMO EK needs to reduce the number of times he forces his D partner into those numerical disadvantages, whether his partner is the ideal match or not.

 

[God Says No]

Again you may be right, but when a D-man turns pucks over at the defensive blueline, or blows defensive coverages, or is caught too deep in the O-zone it is pretty difficult to cover up.

Cameron was right when he said when a player loses 1 on 1 battles forcing a teammate to cover up, it is equivalent to playing shorthanded.

The same applies when a player is caught position or turns pucks over, it is equivalent to playing shorthanded.

IMO EK needs to reduce the number of times he forces his D partner into those numerical disadvantages, whether his partner is the ideal match or not.

Yip, it's a two pronged approach to "fix" Erik. Firstly, he has to make smarter plays, secondly he needs a better partner.

The funny thing about Phillips is that he weighs down everyone he plays with. Even Erik is not immune.

 

[Micklebot]

That was indeed very, very strange

Not to mention no tie down rule being applied.

Could have had an instigator, instigating with a visor, and no tie down penalty. Maybe the initial slash prior to the fight too. Obviously they wouldn't call all of that, but they were all more viable options than Cowen's assesement of an interference call well after the play had been stoped for other reasons.

edit: It seems they called it a head shot, the feed I was watching said interference, so this make more sense, though it was clearly an after the fact call given that play continued until the fight. Had King not challenged him, would they have even called a penalty?

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Here's the problem, when Karlsson is on the ice with Phillips, they are allowing .975 goals against per 60 mins (ES) and have a corsi % of 46.1%. When Karlsson is on the ice with Borowiecki, a rookie, they allow .669 GA/60 and have a CF of 50%.

It's not like this is new, he's never really looked good with Phillips, be it chemistry or just Phillips not being very good any more, it doesn't matter. It may not be Phillips fault, but that pair is attrocious together so why do it?

When Karlson is on the ice with Phillips, the offense dries up, and the defence doesn't get any better. So why do it?

Nobody is say Karlsson doesn't have issues with his game, they are saying that the positves are negated by playing with Phillips and to a lesser extent Boro. Tbh, I'd rather play him with Wiercioch. At least then they can play to their strengths and I'll live with the odd defensive gaffs. Unfortunately, the only time we see them together is late in games when we are down, and it tends to work fairly well (though the other team isn't pushing offesively, so who knows how it would go from start to finish).

Number don't lie but can be misused to make a point.

Boro hasn't played anywhere near the minutes with EK as Phillips has for a starter.

Secondly Corsi doesn't factor in team results in the numbers, it just raw data.

The few games Boro played with EK, the team was playing well overall and above .500.

In the last 16 games the team has won 4 games and without looking I am almost positive most of the player's Corsi numbers have dropped (or Corsi doesn't work).

FYI I agree with those that don't believe Phillips should be playing on the first pairing, but anyone that suggest Boro is the answer is just kidding themself.

The Sens need Methot back full time ASAP, but without EK making some adjustments to his game the end result will be underwhelming.

 

[Micklebot]

Number don't lie but can be misused to make a point.

Boro hasn't played anywhere near the minutes with EK as Phillips has for a starter.

Secondly Corsi doesn't factor in team results in the numbers, it just raw data.

The few games Boro played with EK, the team was playing well overall and above .500.

In the last 16 games the team has won 4 games and without looking I am almost positive most of the player's Corsi numbers have dropped (or Corsi doesn't work).

FYI I agree with those that don't believe Phillips should be playing on the first pairing, but anyone that suggest Boro is the answer is just kidding themself.

The Sens need Methot back full time ASAP, but without EK making some adjustments to his game the end result will be underwhelming.

Don't get me wrong, Boro isn't the answer but so far he's been an upgrade (although slight) over Phillips judgeing by the eye test and the limited numbers we have (about half of what we have with Phillips). I'd even give Cowen another shot, his first few games this year with Karlsson were aweful but I don't doubt he'd look better now.

My overall point is Phillips with Karlsson clearly doesn't work. Round peg squar hole. Even if you want to just look at Karlson with or without Phillips which includes his time early this year with a struggling Cowen, Karlsson without Phillips has looked better.

Playing Karlsson with a better partner won't fix his defensive issues, but it will probably make the line better offensively, and limit how often he has the opportunity to make defensive mistakes.

 

[Alex1234]

The problem with this argument is Phillips is a -1, EK is a -12 with their ES TOI very close (3 min/gm delta).

I am not disagreeing with your analysis of Phillips' play and while it is frustrating to watch he generally finds a way to limit the impact of his mistakes, EK not so much.

Phillips, with all his limitations. works hard every shift, does yeomen work in the D-zone attempting to protect EK from the physical play.

Does an adequate job under the circumstances IMO.

Is he the best guy to be there, absolutely not, but to use him as an excuse for EKs play is wrong IMO.

I am not sure why people resist the notion EK has some significant deficiencies in his game ATM and need to be addressed.

Are you serious?

phillips is everything except adequate lol

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

You have to be blind to not realize a more stable partner will improve Karlsson.

Any and every defender that is near the top of the league plays with a defender either just as good or legit top pairing.

We're expecting Karlsson to be top 1-3 defender playing with AHL product. It hasn't happened in the past so I unno why people expecting an exception from a recovering Karlsson anyway. Especially one who takes risks.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Are you serious?

phillips is everything except adequate lol

Not sure I agree with this comment.

I do agree he is being played too many minutes against top opposition, but he has been adequate.

While adequate might not be enough some nights, people should be asking themselves what could EK do to make things easier instead of pointing fingers at other players.

EK is the talented one, the Norris winner, what has he done to help his partner?

EK is the captain, he knows Phillips/Boro/Cowen have been slotted in beside him for only one reason, Methot's injury.

IMO EK has the ability to make a difficult situation better, its up to him to do it..

 

[HavlatMach9]

ek needs a strong partner to play at his best, but Phillips is enough for EK to still play very well

 

[Holdurbreathe]

You have to be blind to not realize a more stable partner will improve Karlsson.

Any and every defender that is near the top of the league plays with a defender either just as good or legit top pairing.

We're expecting Karlsson to be top 1-3 defender playing with AHL product. It hasn't happened in the past so I unno why people expecting an exception from a recovering Karlsson anyway. Especially one who takes risks.

Nonsense, I am expecting a Norris winner to play in the D-zone like an adequate NHL D-man, not like some undisciplined kid in junior.

While you and others may want to blame Phillips for EKs current deficiencies, I strongly believe that unless EK improves this team will continue to lose more than it wins, even with Methot.

Regarding his recovery fom his injury, don't buy that simple because a majority of his mistakes aren't physical in nature, they are mental.

 

[Baby Ryan]

Not sure I agree with this comment.

I do agree he is being played too many minutes against top opposition, but he has been adequate.

While adequate might not be enough some nights, people should be asking themselves what could EK do to make things easier instead of pointing fingers at other players.

EK is the talented one, the Norris winner, what has he done to help his partner?

EK is the captain, he knows Phillips/Boro/Cowen have been slotted in beside him for only one reason, Methot's injury.

IMO EK has the ability to make a difficult situation better, its up to him to do it..

I agree, except for Phillips being adequate. He's getting brain farts at some very bad times, and like someone said they are usually uncontested.

In regards to Karlsson, I believe Ray Ferraro said something along the lines of EK being able to play very good defense, just a matter of him constantly thinking about what he can do with the puck rather than without it.
Hence the constant need to intercept passes, which failed for the most part last night.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

You have to be blind to not realize a more stable partner will improve Karlsson.

Any and every defender that is near the top of the league plays with a defender either just as good or legit top pairing.

We're expecting Karlsson to be top 1-3 defender playing with AHL product. It hasn't happened in the past so I unno why people expecting an exception from a recovering Karlsson anyway. Especially one who takes risks.

You honestly believe this?

Did you ever consider that players like Weber, Chara, Kronwell, Suter et al make their partners look better because of the load they carry and how they play within the system?

I have yet to see another top NHL D-man do so little of the heavy lifting in the D-zone as EK does, yet to many the problems that exist are all on his partners.

After attending almost every home game since EK arrived, I know he can play defense better than he has this season and I know he can make smarter decision with the puck.

I just want him to play to his capabilities, regardless of who lines up as his partner.

IMO that hasn't happened too many games this year.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Weber looked like hot garbage without Suter a few years back

It's easy to forget how young Karlsson is

I'm of the mind that a reliable partner will get him to relax a bit, right now he's probably acutely aware of how any **** up on his part is going to be costly but, at the same time, he's an instinctive player, not cerebral: he's the kind of player who needs to be at ease. This might change as he matures of course.

Playing with Phillips or Boro just isn't working and evne once he does get a competent partner, it will still take a while for him to get comfortable

I think management needs to start looking at getting him someone soon because Methot cannot be relied upon. That's if the team wants to make the playoffs. If not might as well see how the year plays out and gain more experience but we are not going anywhere with Phillips or Boro on the top pair, it ain't happening.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

I agree, except for Phillips being adequate. He's getting brain farts at some very bad times, and like someone said they are usually uncontested.

In regards to Karlsson, I believe Ray Ferraro said something along the lines of EK being able to play very good defense, just a matter of him constantly thinking about what he can do with the puck rather than without it.
Hence the constant need to intercept passes, which failed for the most part last night.

Statistics don't support this notion, though you will get no argument from me that Phillips shouldn't be on the number one pairing.

I thought Ray's comments were valid, it seems EK is thinking about making a game changing play on every shift and instead of being patient he is attempting to force opportunities to happen.

Hopefully Cameron can help him find a better balance to his game.

 

[aragorn]

Methot's injury is the one that hurts the most since IMO I think he is the best defenceman on this team to play with Karlsson. I think he reacts the best & has the wheels to get back fast enough when Karlsson gives the puck away or screws up, Boros not that bad either but he is learning to as he is in his first yr. But the other defencemen either can't react fast enough or don't skate well enough to get back. Ceci is also a right shot so I don't include him in this since they rarely play together although we are starting to see it a little more. Wiercioch, Cowen & Phillips are just not quick enough or good enough to react quickly enough to cover for Karlsson.

That's why I argued Cowen should be playing with Ceci since Ceci is a much safer defenceman to play with for Cowen. It was also mentioned on the radio this morning how difficult it must be for a Karlsson defence partner to have to skate all the way across the ice to cover for him then be stuck in their own end for a while before getting off & how gassed they must be. You really have to be in good shape to play with & cover for Karlsson since it's quite likely you will also be the only defenceman back once he gives up the puck & doesn't get back quick enough to help defensively.