Confirmed with Link: Khudobin for Wisniewski

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Flames traded for Hamilton I don't see them not matching a contract the Ducks would realistically be willing to offer. Also offer sheets are something frowned upon by most GM's you think BM is going to offer sheet someone?

Actually, with all the emphasis on tagging room when there's only 1 UFA forward to sign to an extension, yes, I'm starting to think this is a very real possibility. Perhaps not with Hamilton, but in general.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Actually, with all the emphasis on tagging room when there's only 1 UFA forward to sign to an extension, yes, I'm starting to think this is a very real possibility. Perhaps not with Hamilton, but in general.

Silf may be the only expired contract, but I'd be awfully uncomfortable not extending Kesler and Lindholm this summer. I'm good with waiting to see how Sami does next year before extending him.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Silf may be the only expired contract, but I'd be awfully uncomfortable not extending Kesler and Lindholm this summer. I'm good with waiting to see how Sami does next year before extending him.

It's not that, it's that the constant talk of needing tagging room is kind of strange. I really hope those guys are extended soon as well, but Kesler's the only one that really needs to be(maybe Lindholm, but he still would be a RFA). More than that, though, we already had the tagging room to extend those guys. Right now, we're sitting at, I believe, $40 million in tagging room. Now, with only $45 million in payroll, I would think another $10-20 million is added, but that still leaves you with at least $20+ million in tagging room. No way you need that much, even to sign Kesler, Lindholm and Vatanen during the season.

However, you would need that much room to sign just about all the RFAs. And that's a bit of a strange one, considering he's let plenty of RFAs make it to summer. Something I thought about recently is that perhaps he is afraid of an offer sheet backlash, and wants to get as many guys locked up as he can.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

BM did say that Gibson wasn't being traded, he didn't say anything about Andersen. Just a thought, what if next season is an audition between Khudobin and Andersen, and the loser is gone at the deadline or next offseason?

It could happen, but I think Murray was (kind of)telling the truth here. It's about avoiding what happened last year, and having a solid veteran in case Gibson isn't ready. Could also be that Khudobin will be waived and sent to San Diego(if he clears) if Gibson excels.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

It's not that, it's that the constant talk of needing tagging room is kind of strange. I really hope those guys are extended soon as well, but Kesler's the only one that really needs to be(maybe Lindholm, but he still would be a RFA). More than that, though, we already had the tagging room to extend those guys. Right now, we're sitting at, I believe, $40 million in tagging room. Now, with only $45 million in payroll, I would think another $10-20 million is added, but that still leaves you with at least $20+ million in tagging room. No way you need that much, even to sign Kesler, Lindholm and Vatanen during the season.

However, you would need that much room to sign just about all the RFAs. And that's a bit of a strange one, considering he's let plenty of RFAs make it to summer. Something I thought about recently is that perhaps he is afraid of an offer sheet backlash, and wants to get as many guys locked up as he can.

Well, there have been some articles claiming the new, younger management types being hired today may be more willing to pull the trigger on offer sheets. I'd certainly prefer not seeing that happen to Hampus. I'm still not sure tagging room is as simple as some have made it out to be but hopefully we now have enough room to get the important signings done as well as have room to still improve the team this summer.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Well, there have been some articles claiming the new, younger management types being hired today may be more willing to pull the trigger on offer sheets. I'd certainly prefer not seeing that happen to Hampus. I'm still not sure tagging room is as simple as some have made it out to be but hopefully we now have enough room to get the important signings done as well as have room to still improve the team this summer.

I'm no expert, but I think it is. As far as I understand it, you simply can't have more money committed for a future year than the current cap. So, the Ducks can't have $71.4 million on the books for 2016-2017. They currently have just under $32 million committed for that year now, so the talk is quite strange.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

I'm no expert, but I think it is. As far as I understand it, you simply can't have more money committed for a future year than the current cap. So, the Ducks can't have $71.4 million on the books for 2016-2017. They currently have just under $32 million committed for that year now, so the talk is quite strange.

Maybe it is that simple, but it seems odd that you can't have more committed to a future year than this year's cap, but during the summer you can exceed this year's cap by 10% as long as you fix it by opening day. Seems like you should have more wiggle room for future years since they are further away.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Maybe it is that simple, but it seems odd that you can't have more committed to a future year than this year's cap, but during the summer you can exceed this year's cap by 10% as long as you fix it by opening day. Seems like you should have more wiggle room for future years since they are further away.

It does seem odd, but it's the rule, for whatever reason. It was the main reason why the Andy McDonald trade was made in 2007, the Getzlaf extension took up too much tagging room for Niedermayer to return.

It's more odd how it applies to the current situation. It doesn't really add up yet. Could be misdirection, but given how little-known the rule is, along with the Wisniewski and Fistric moves, I think he's being honest about this one. It definitely looks like they're making tagging room, the only question is why.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

It does seem odd, but it's the rule, for whatever reason. It was the main reason why the Andy McDonald trade was made in 2007, the Getzlaf extension took up too much tagging room for Niedermayer to return.

It's more odd how it applies to the current situation. It doesn't really add up yet. Could be misdirection, but given how little-known the rule is, along with the Wisniewski and Fistric moves, I think he's being honest about this one. It definitely looks like they're making tagging room, the only question is why.

Maybe someone could tweet our intrepid beat writer to ask Murray about it.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Maybe someone could tweet our intrepid beat writer to ask Murray about it.

Maybe we need to hit up our new resource, Dreger.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Maybe someone could tweet our intrepid beat writer to ask Murray about it.

I'm sure someone will, and I'm sure he'll politely not answer their question.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

I'm sure someone will, and I'm sure he'll politely not answer their question.

That's why we need to go back door to Dreger who will check with Nonis.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

That's why we need to go back door to Dreger who will check with Nonis.

I know Nonis can't officially work here until July 1st, and if he's kept out of the loop until then it might not matter. A very simple answer to my question would be that they're gearing up for a big splash.

 

[TheJoeMan]

It's not that, it's that the constant talk of needing tagging room is kind of strange. I really hope those guys are extended soon as well, but Kesler's the only one that really needs to be(maybe Lindholm, but he still would be a RFA). More than that, though, we already had the tagging room to extend those guys. Right now, we're sitting at, I believe, $40 million in tagging room. Now, with only $45 million in payroll, I would think another $10-20 million is added, but that still leaves you with at least $20+ million in tagging room. No way you need that much, even to sign Kesler, Lindholm and Vatanen during the season.

However, you would need that much room to sign just about all the RFAs. And that's a bit of a strange one, considering he's let plenty of RFAs make it to summer. Something I thought about recently is that perhaps he is afraid of an offer sheet backlash, and wants to get as many guys locked up as he can.

This has been pointed out so plainly so many times. I don't understand how you can continue to feel this way. Weren't the moves Murray made this weekend indicative of that? I know I've shown these numbers already but I updated them to reflect Hagelin and subtracting Wisniewski and Etem:

Perry-8.625
Getzlaf-8.25
Kesler-7
Silfverberg-3.5
Cogliano-3
Hagelin-3
Maroon-2
Thompson-1.6
Sekac-1.5
Rakell-1.5
Wagner-.900
Ritchie-.894
Beagle- 1.5 (for the sake of assuming we sign a center)
Lindholm-4.5
Fowler-4
Vatanen-3.5
Stoner-3.25
Despres-2.5
Manson-1.5
Theodore-863
Andersen-5
Backup-1

That's 69 million. Not only is that extremely close to the cap that also assumes we're suddenly a cap team. None of those numbers are outrageous and a few could be low like Despres and Kesler. Even if you feel we can supplement a Stoner or a Thompson by that point they'll have to be replaced and it won't be cheap. Notice this roster doesn't even have Beauchemin or any new d-man for that matter. Maybe by that point we subtract Stoner for a decent d-man at a similar rate our cap situation is still the same. And all of that is assuming we'll spend close to the cap. If we remain a budget team than it'll be even worse.

We've committed to the core of this team, or at least that's the plan. No big free agent signings. No offer sheets. No big trades. We simply don't have the room for them otherwise we have to entertain the idea of trading away or losing guys like Silfverberg, Lindholm, Fowler, Vatanen, Despres, etc.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

This has been pointed out so plainly so many times. I don't understand how you can continue to feel this way. Weren't the moves Murray made this weekend indicative of that? I know I've shown these numbers already but I updated them to reflect Hagelin and subtracting Wisniewski and Etem:

Perry-8.625
Getzlaf-8.25
Kesler-7
Silfverberg-3.5
Cogliano-3
Hagelin-3
Maroon-2
Thompson-1.6
Sekac-1.5
Rakell-1.5
Wagner-.900
Ritchie-.894
Beagle- 1.5 (for the sake of assuming we sign a center)
Lindholm-4.5
Fowler-4
Vatanen-3.5
Stoner-3.25
Despres-2.5
Manson-1.5
Theodore-863
Andersen-5
Backup-1

That's 69 million. Not only is that extremely close to the cap that also assumes we're suddenly a cap team. None of those numbers are outrageous and a few could be low like Despres and Kesler. Even if you feel we can supplement a Stoner or a Thompson by that point they'll have to be replaced and it won't be cheap. Notice this roster doesn't even have Beauchemin or any new d-man for that matter. Maybe by that point we subtract Stoner for a decent d-man at a similar rate our cap situation is still the same. And all of that is assuming we'll spend close to the cap. If we remain a budget team than it'll be even worse.

We've committed to the core of this team, or at least that's the plan. No big free agent signings. No offer sheets. No big trades. We simply don't have the room for them otherwise we have to entertain the idea of trading away or losing guys like Silfverberg, Lindholm, Fowler, Vatanen, Despres, etc.

I was talking strictly about tagging. They don't need $40 million in tagging room, even if Murray went the unprecedented route of extending every RFA we have during the season.

The moves made were about tagging. Buying out Fistric will actually cost more in real dollars, but saves over $1 million in tagging room. Trading Wisniewski does make sense, but for what he brings, his $3 million salary in 2017 is very reasonable. The big savings though? A cool $5.5 million in tagging room.

It's just tough to make sense of why Murray keeps talking about tagging, and why he appears to be making moves to create more tagging room when he doesn't appear to need it. He would, though, need $40 million in tagging room if he plans on adding $15-20 million in tagging space this summer. That's just one plausible explanation, hence the speculation.

 

[TheJoeMan]

I was talking strictly about tagging. They don't need $40 million in tagging room, even if Murray went the unprecedented route of extending every RFA we have during the season.

The moves made were about tagging. Buying out Fistric will actually cost more in real dollars, but saves over $1 million in tagging room. Trading Wisniewski does make sense, but for what he brings, his $3 million salary in 2017 is very reasonable. The big savings though? A cool $5.5 million in tagging room.

It's just tough to make sense of why Murray keeps talking about tagging, and why he appears to be making moves to create more tagging room when he doesn't appear to need it. He would, though, need $40 million in tagging room if he plans on adding $15-20 million in tagging space this summer. That's just one plausible explanation, hence the speculation.

That's exactly what he's trying to do because all of those players are only going to get more expensive. And tagging room, for this team at least, may not relate to the cap but our budget. As I laid out we're looking at capping out with the roster we have right now. If the budget is less than the cap, which would be a reasonable assumption considering we've been a budget team all along, than the kind of tagging space you think we have is way overestimated.

Murray has to operate as if he will successfully re-sign all of his expiring players on Wednesday. He can't sign these players if he doesn't have that room. I think what you're not taking into your calculations is of that 40 million in tagging space how much of that comes from restricted free agents which is basically already accounted for since we plan on retaining those players and they can't make less money. Kesler and Jackman are still our only unrestricted free agents (well I guess Khudobin now as well) and Kesler should be considered like the restricted players since we plan to re-sign him. Silfverberg and Hagelin are going to eat up most of what Beauch and Beleskey are leaving behind and that's just assuming we don't sign another d-man. I figure a center in our future but he'll eat up Palmieri's money that just went out so that'll basically be a wash unless it's only a one-year deal.

But even if he doesn't sign all of these players this season he will have to make sure he can next year. There's no guarantee the cap will go up next year, hell it might go down (it technically did this season). Those salary projections are really a best-case scenario and they absolutely represent the tagging issue. Do you think Murray will be able to sign or acquire high-profile players this summer and be able to keep all of our core players? I'd love to know how he can achieve that without having to trade them all away before next July.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

That's exactly what he's trying to do because all of those players are only going to get more expensive. And tagging room, for this team at least, may not relate to the cap but our budget. As I laid out we're looking at capping out with the roster we have right now. If the budget is less than the cap, which would be a reasonable assumption considering we've been a budget team all along, than the kind of tagging space you think we have is way overestimated.

Murray has to operate as if he will successfully re-sign all of his expiring players on Wednesday. He can't sign these players if he doesn't have that room. I think what you're not taking into your calculations is of that 40 million in tagging space how much of that comes from restricted free agents which is basically already accounted for since we plan on retaining those players and they can't make less money. Kesler and Jackman are still our only unrestricted free agents (well I guess Khudobin now as well) and Kesler should be considered like the restricted players since we plan to re-sign him. Silfverberg and Hagelin are going to eat up most of what Beauch and Beleskey are leaving behind and that's just assuming we don't sign another d-man. I figure a center in our future but he'll eat up Palmieri's money that just went out so that'll basically be a wash unless it's only a one-year deal.

But even if he doesn't sign all of these players this season he will have to make sure he can next year. There's no guarantee the cap will go up next year, hell it might go down (it technically did this season). Those salary projections are really a best-case scenario and they absolutely represent the tagging issue. Do you think Murray will be able to sign or acquire high-profile players this summer and be able to keep all of our core players? I'd love to know how he can achieve that without having to trade them all away before next July.

You don't understand, tagging room does not apply to any budget concerns. It solely applies to the cap, which means it shouldn't apply at all to this team. To re-sign every RFA ahead of July 1st, which would be unprecedented, they should only need $25 or so million, maybe less, so the concern appears to be a little odd.

I'd also say your numbers are quite a bit off, but that still doesn't matter. Murray currently has way more tagging room than he could ever possible use.

 

[Getzholm]

Would not surprise me. He's a really good goalie.

And I'm sure BM feels Khudobin feels the same way, if he doesn't already consider him the top option. He must value him highly and not view him as a "pure backup" like he said if he traded Wiz for him. Wiz had value, if he wanted a pure backup, a decent one could have been had for a 4th rounder. He brought Khudobin in to compete for the starting job with Andersen and plans on Gibson being in the AHL, or he lied and is looking for another deal to flip Andersen or Gibson.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

And I'm sure BM feels Khudobin feels the same way, if he doesn't already consider him the top option. He must value him highly and not view him as a "pure backup" like he said if he traded Wiz for him. Wiz had value, if he wanted a pure backup, a decent one could have been had for a 4th rounder. He brought Khudobin in to compete for the starting job with Andersen and plans on Gibson being in the AHL, or he lied and is looking for another deal to flip Andersen or Gibson.

I do think he wanted to get a veteran backup, but I don't think this deal was about Khudobin whatsoever. I think it was about moving Wiz and taking back zero tagging space. Making this trade just killed two birds with one stone.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

And I'm sure BM feels Khudobin feels the same way, if he doesn't already consider him the top option. He must value him highly and not view him as a "pure backup" like he said if he traded Wiz for him. Wiz had value, if he wanted a pure backup, a decent one could have been had for a 4th rounder. He brought Khudobin in to compete for the starting job with Andersen and plans on Gibson being in the AHL, or he lied and is looking for another deal to flip Andersen or Gibson.

Believe his words or not, but his actions so far suggest that budget space is a very valuable commodity this offseason. There's no reason to spend a quality asset like Wiz to bring in competition for the starter's role; we're fine there. But it makes sense if we're cleaning up the accounts, which we did. Maybe he flat out lied and something else is on the table, but Murray's been burned twice now when the org's goalie depth was weak (last year and in 2011). Whether Khudobin is a legitimate threat for the starter's role is up to Khudobin, I guess, but I doubt that's why he was brought in. More likely he's on the level and Khudobin's here because we need money (for some reason) and we need three reliable goalies.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

I think Bob basically dumped Wiz like a cap dump to free up space for something and replaced Lababs with an upgrade. All in the same deal. Nothing more. Although one would think Wiz would be worth more than a backup.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

I think Bob basically dumped Wiz like a cap dump to free up space for something and replaced Lababs with an upgrade. All in the same deal. Nothing more. Although one would think Wiz would be worth more than a backup.

He was. He was worth a backup goalie and extra tagging room. Tagging is going to win us a Cup this year I tell you.

 

[Getzholm]

I do think he wanted to get a veteran backup, but I don't think this deal was about Khudobin whatsoever. I think it was about moving Wiz and taking back zero tagging space. Making this trade just killed two birds with one stone.

How could it not be about Khudobin? Then why not trade wiz for a worse but adequate backup and also get a pick or two back for Wiz. Why use Wiz in a deal for a goalie at all? It's hard for me to take BM at his word in this scenario, or actually on any of his post-trade explanations so far this offseason. He's gaining leverage in trade talks and with his soon to be RFA's in negotiations (doing things that show he doesn't have much money to spend).

 

[Getzholm]

Later in the offseason BM will "receive word" that the Samuellis decided to spend to the cap for some reason even though they've planned it all along haha.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

He was. He was worth a backup goalie and extra tagging room. Tagging is going to win us a Cup this year I tell you.

Sounds like that tagging guy is going to be this year's key acquisition. I think I may have to get me a jersey with a Tagging nameplate.