KHL Expansion part IV (Mod warning post 760)

[Jonimaus]

Well, since we not are discussing loosely on the possibility of a team in France, Rouen. How much attendance did the team bring to their own games against foreign opponents in this CC? And how much do they have during their regular games in the French league and in the finals?

On my quick research I did just now, Rouen seems to be a 500-650 thousand inhab. city, so it's pretty big I'd say. At least in European standards right?

The team Rouen Dragon seems to be pretty professional and they seem to like international play.

So it would be interesting to know how many people went to the arena to support their team against, what some Europeans will say "teams that no one have ever heard of and that no one cares about".

If they sold out their arena in this CC it would be promising I would say. If only 200 persons came to the arena then of course the interest is not too big.

And yes I agree, it shouldn't really be any problem at all to put a team in France, Italy or Norway. Just fill the teams with national team players and good imports and they are fine.

A French team could also use many French-Canadians so the whole team would speak French, haha.

In theory you could put a team in the UK also, but there would not really be any British players on the team, it would be more or less like a Medvescak team, and they could put the very best British players in the fourth line if they wanted to, but it would of course hurt the team more than help them.

Maybe they could import some Russian fans to watch the games? Or how did you plan on solving the attendance?

 

[bobbeaver]

I thought Latvia likes hockey though? France doesn't care about it, especially not Paris. Planting a team in a country that likes hockey should not be compared to one where it's barely on the radar.
I really hope you're not naive enough to think that planting a team would make people interested. And for god sake don't bring up "it's all about marketing". No, it is not. If you put a lacrosse team from the best league in the world, wherever that is, in Stockholm people wouldn't give 2 ***** about it. News would never write about it, doesn't matter how much you market it. It's WAY too early to even consider Paris at this stage. Let them get some casual interest first. It'll probably take at least 20 years (if ever) before putting a team there would make sense. That is, unless some Russian person figures he has too much money and wants to spend it on something people don't care about?

It has about the same attendance as Danish teams and Norway league because of capacity of their Arenas mostly (avg attendance 1.500). But to illustrate what could the attendance be like or what kind of interest is

http://www.iihf.com/nc/home-of-hockey/news/news-singleview/recap/8271.html

They made a winter classic and made a hell of a show and had a crowd of almost 20k people at a game in Grenoble, aswell as in 2011 they had a record of 13.4 k at Palais Omnisports de Paris-Bercy in PARIS at the French cup finals. This is where in Magnus ( there is a team in D2). Not to mention this same venue will be where the 2017 world championships will happen along with Cologne.
Ligue Magnus is big enough to have 4 divisons.

 

[Jonimaus]

It has about the same attendance as Danish teams and Norway league because of capacity of their Arenas mostly (avg attendance 1.500). But to illustrate what could the attendance be like or what kind of interest is

http://www.iihf.com/nc/home-of-hockey/news/news-singleview/recap/8271.html

They made a winter classic and made a hell of a show and had a crowd of almost 20k people at a game in Grenoble, aswell as in 2011 they had a record of 13.4 k at Palais Omnisports de Paris-Bercy in PARIS at the French cup finals. This is where in Magnus ( there is a team in D2). Not to mention this same venue will be where the 2017 world championships will happen along with Cologne.
Ligue Magnus is big enough to have 4 divisons.

But that's a gimmick game. They managed to make 70,000 or whatever it was people to go watch a WHC game in Germany. That in no way whatsoever reflects the interest there.

 

[bobbeaver]

In theory you could put a team in the UK also, but there would not really be any British players on the team, it would be more or less like a Medvescak team, and they could put the very best British players in the fourth line if they wanted to, but it would of course hurt the team more than help them.

Yes that is more of a problem than the attendance. Attendance in the Elite Ice Hockey League is 2k, higher than Norway. Also Manchester Storm had the highest attendance in the league in a league match of 17k people, with a very high average. The highest attendance in a hockey game was in London 17.5k people in an NHL exhibition match. There is no hockey club in London as yet (unless you count 3. tier London Racers).
Problem is the lack of English talent. I honestly dont get it. They have 3 divisions and lots of clubs yet they werent/arent that far off from Croatia that has 3 functioning and 1 barely functioning club.

 

[bobbeaver]

But that's a gimmick game. They managed to make 70,000 or whatever it was people to go watch a WHC game in Germany. That in no way whatsoever reflects the interest there.

what about that 13.4k atteandance in Paris for the Cup finals in 2011.? It is a regular game, regular venue, although its the finals.
Also even if it is a "gimmick" game you try getting 20k people in a place, you say, noone cares about hockey. You mentioned Lacross, well make a lacross game in this same spot and see how many people you get. People must be atleast interested in the game or know about it to certain extent. Besides this IS how you popularize hockey and your club more and bring audience. Marketing is god. (something Moscow clubs dont understand still). Also if it happens more than once it is consistency.

Whats WHC?

 

[Jussi]

what about that 13.4k atteandance in Paris for the Cup finals in 2011.? It is a regular game, regular venue, although its the finals.
Also even if it is a "gimmick" game you try getting 20k people in a place, you say, noone cares about hockey. You mentioned Lacross, well make a lacross game in this same spot and see how many people you get. People must be atleast interested in the game or know about it to certain extent. Besides this IS how you popularize hockey and your club more and bring audience. Marketing is god. (something Moscow clubs dont understand still). Also if it happens more than once it is consistency.

Whats WHC?

Worlds.

 

[bobbeaver]

Ah well mm what do you mean? DEL has very good attendance. Granted the TV could follow it more but some teams have an 12.5 k avg attendance. Its no football (nothing is) but it is very popular spectator sport. AVg attendance over all is higher than SHL (although % wise in filled arenas it is lower). So i am not sure of your point Jonimaus.

What is puzzling to me is while with a strong league and many teams n divisions (mind you this could be still much improved and more Rinks built) they have raised the average german player quality quite a bit, and can field 3 equal national teams almost, however the lack of substantial amount of extra talent in such a player mass is very surprising to me.

 

[robwangjing]

Yes that is more of a problem than the attendance. Attendance in the Elite Ice Hockey League is 2k, higher than Norway. Also Manchester Storm had the highest attendance in the league in a league match of 17k people, with a very high average. The highest attendance in a hockey game was in London 17.5k people in an NHL exhibition match. There is no hockey club in London as yet (unless you count 3. tier London Racers).
Problem is the lack of English talent. I honestly dont get it. They have 3 divisions and lots of clubs yet they werent/arent that far off from Croatia that has 3 functioning and 1 barely functioning club.

Yes I also think it's very strange. I read some ice hockey history before and saw that UK had an Olympic medal in ice hockey(if my memory doesn't fail me now), so it seem like they had at one point some good players. Today they have a pretty good middle-level-European league, but still they fail to produce players like Denmark, France or Norway. Because I don't think that the EIHL can be that far behind the Danish, French and Norwegian leagues, or maybe not even behind them at all.

 

[maclean]

The weather in the UK is too mild, you don't have people skating outdoors. Denmark and Norway are obviously different in this regard but I would say that even in much of France you have more ice and snow than in England..

 

[SoundAndFury]

I thought Latvia likes hockey though? France doesn't care about it, especially not Paris. Planting a team in a country that likes hockey should not be compared to one where it's barely on the radar.

Relax, I was only talking about the level of a player's pool, I leave expansion plans to you.

The rules are ridiculous house-league nonsense. Wins and losses are the only things that matter IMO. The NHL would benefit from doing away with points altogether and syncing up with the rest of the major professional sports leagues.

Maybe you should switch to some other major professional sports league because draw is a legitimate option in hockey, it's kind of a hockey thing, you know.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

So London and Paris can't keep a team in their "little" leagues and all of sudden a KHL team is not only substainable, but also a success product? Doubtfully

 

[bobbeaver]

So London and Paris can't keep a team in their "little" leagues and all of sudden a KHL team is not only substainable, but also a success product? Doubtfully

Well problem in London was there was no proper venue as their only arena with seats (even though to small) in London was deemed unsafe (plexi glass shattered and some protrusions in the boards hurt a player) for the short lived Racers, so now London Racers are in the amateur 3. division league in another venue. But the NHL game in the London O2 arena proves there could be interest. The EIHL wants to put Pro teams in London when arena is available, and also Manchester (Phoenix is in the development league) or other cities. Better sustainable interest would be in Manchester (Manchester Storm had excellent attendance before folding, dont ask its a long story) or Nottingham, which has a hockey tradition, although 17.5k at a NHL game in London is still a great showing.

Paris is also not without interest, as i mentioned the 2011 cup finals 13.4k attendance in Paris. As for the club in Paris "Les Français Volants" Its in the D2 league with desire to grow (they are leading the D2B and will probably get into D1). Its a rather young club from. It was created when the only Ice rink in Paris was made "Palais Omnisport Paris Berc" where there is a smaller rink 500 seats, or the 14k multipurpose arena (which can have ice). to little for such a city.

 

[thepetrochemist]

Is it me or this whole crazy expansion project is getting more and more ridiculous ?

Can somebody explain me the point of creating teams all around Europe, in countries that don't give a damn about the sport ?

In france, Ice hockey is the smallest article in sport newspapers, nobody cares... ( the winter classic in Grenoble was a nice try, I don't think it represent at all the state of ice hockey in France).

Expansion for expansion, what's the point ? KHL is/was great with its "eastern feel" so to speak ?

I really don't care to see a Paris - London game or even a Milan - Novosibirsk...

Maybe i'm too conservative on this topic, but I don't like this Western Europe division at all...

 

[bobbeaver]

Well that is not happening for a while bro. If there will be further expansion it will be DEL club, Norwegian club or a Swedish club (roomers).

France and Denmark are the hotbeds for hockey growth now with better attendance and interest. French league is also well funded. The interest and attendance is somewhat regionalized , but it is gaining momentum in both countries. It will go alonge with the success of clubs and the NT's. And both are possible stable elite tier countries. ( i think the Elite tier should be expanded than to have more teams lol)

 

[Jonimaus]

what about that 13.4k atteandance in Paris for the Cup finals in 2011.? It is a regular game, regular venue, although its the finals.
Also even if it is a "gimmick" game you try getting 20k people in a place, you say, noone cares about hockey. You mentioned Lacross, well make a lacross game in this same spot and see how many people you get. People must be atleast interested in the game or know about it to certain extent. Besides this IS how you popularize hockey and your club more and bring audience. Marketing is god. (something Moscow clubs dont understand still). Also if it happens more than once it is consistency.

Whats WHC?

Bingo.

It will go alonge with the success of clubs and the NT's.

What success? They will battle between themselves with the lesser countries and continue getting crushed by the top ones for decades to come.

 

[Jussi]

Well that is not happening for a while bro. If there will be further expansion it will be DEL club, Norwegian club or a Swedish club (roomers).

France and Denmark are the hotbeds for hockey growth now with better attendance and interest. French league is also well funded. The interest and attendance is somewhat regionalized , but it is gaining momentum in both countries. It will go alonge with the success of clubs and the NT's. And both are possible stable elite tier countries. ( i think the Elite tier should be expanded than to have more teams lol)

Nope. I said it before, without it's current NHL players, Denmark is fighting for relegation at the Worlds. France's best players play abroad as well.

 

[Ivan94]

Paris Saint Germain could buy/found a hockey in paris with money from qatar.Same thing they have done with the handball-team from Paris 2 years ago. then they bought a world-class team, won last year french league and are competing for Champions League trophy this year.

ok, handball is popular at France and their NT is Top3 in the world, but if someone could invest in a sport-team in paris that would be qataris.

 

[bobbeaver]

Bingo.



What success? They will battle between themselves with the lesser countries and continue getting crushed by the top ones for decades to come.

It doesnt matter is it finals or not. Its Paris for one and a sport noone cares about supposedly. You cant fill the arena of that size despite those two "facts" no matter what show you put on.

Well point is they DO have NHL players. They created them which some years ago back wasnt the case. Many players play outside because they are getting better and are being sucked into better leagues. The average quality of both countries players have also increased considerably. And there is far more competition in the lower half of the top tier than it used to be 20 years ago. Since 2008. they have come to the elites more and more on their own talent, and not naturalised Quebeckers as 15 years prior. And Denmark did it purely on its own strength.
If both teams dont play with their best players ofc they will have problems that isnt much of a logic. An emerging hockey nation will ofc not have the depth of Germany or Norway, but even if their top guys dont come (there is only a few of them) those countries will have problems aswell. Those problems dont take away from the increase of quality production of Denmark and France. It would be a worse problem 15 years ago when they really had no depth. Now despite lacking some top (home grown) talents they are still able to fight for not being relegated.
They will need some 10-15 more years of continuous current growth before they could come close to the avg quality of the Swiss today.

 

[Jussi]

It doesnt matter is it finals or not. Its Paris for one and a sport noone cares about supposedly. You cant fill the arena of that size despite those two "facts" no matter what show you put on.

Well point is they DO have NHL players. They created them which some years ago back wasnt the case. Many players play outside because they are getting better and are being sucked into better leagues. The average quality of both countries players have also increased considerably. And there is far more competition in the lower half of the top tier than it used to be 20 years ago. Since 2008. they have come to the elites more and more on their own talent, and not naturalised Quebeckers as 15 years prior. And Denmark did it purely on its own strength.
If both teams dont play with their best players ofc they will have problems that isnt much of a logic. An emerging hockey nation will ofc not have the depth of Germany or Norway, but even if their top guys dont come (there is only a few of them) those countries will have problems aswell. Those problems dont take away from the increase of quality production of Denmark and France. It would be a worse problem 15 years ago when they really had no depth. Now despite lacking some top (home grown) talents they are still able to fight for not being relegated.
They will need some 10-15 more years of continuous current growth before they could come close to the avg quality of the Swiss today.

Going to Sweden and the CHL at a young age created them.

 

[Jonimaus]

Paris Saint Germain could buy/found a hockey in paris with money from qatar.Same thing they have done with the handball-team from Paris 2 years ago. then they bought a world-class team, won last year french league and are competing for Champions League trophy this year.

ok, handball is popular at France and their NT is Top3 in the world, but if someone could invest in a sport-team in paris that would be qataris.

So the people from Qatar decided to first invest in teams that gets a **** ton of attention and a lot of people love/care about, to a no-name sport with more or less 0 media spotlight? I mean don't get me wrong, they are insanely rich, but I don't think they would ever in a million years consider to sponsor a KHL team. Owning a fantastic football team is a HUGE status symbol. Owning a KHL team is not.

 

[bobbeaver]

Going to Sweden and the CHL at a young age created them.

ok yeah for some but why would they do that in the last decade and not before? Because of emerging talent that for a certain years are coached at home. And the coaching must be much better than before to create a player with as few flaws in technique, to nurturer the talent. Besides the quality of the Danish league has increased over the years for the players that did stay home despite the move of some of the top players to sweden. I can give you an example of Frederik Andersen, an NHL player, who was in the SHL only 1 year, than in the AHL 1 year and now plays NHL. So he wasnt educated in Sweden but Denmark. Same as NHL player Jannik Hansen.

 

[Jussi]

ok yeah for some but why would they do that in the last decade and not before? Because of emerging talent that for a certain years are coached at home. And the coaching must be much better than before to create a player with as few flaws in technique, to nurturer the talent. Besides the quality of the Danish league has increased over the years for the players that did stay home despite the move of some of the top players to sweden. I can give you an example of Frederik Andersen, an NHL player, who was in the SHL only 1 year, than in the AHL 1 year and now plays NHL. So he wasnt educated in Sweden but Denmark. Same as NHL player Jannik Hansen.

Doesn't change the fact that you are overvaluating the Danes.

Hansen by the way played in the WHL before NHL. Andersen also went unsigned and got re-drafted after that season in Sweden.

 

[Ivan94]

So the people from Qatar decided to first invest in teams that gets a **** ton of attention and a lot of people love/care about, to a no-name sport with more or less 0 media spotlight? I mean don't get me wrong, they are insanely rich, but I don't think they would ever in a million years consider to sponsor a KHL team. Owning a fantastic football team is a HUGE status symbol. Owning a KHL team is not.

I was thinking more of sponsoring a frech team in french league to grow interest in paris for the sport. handball was more popular in south-france(chambery, monpellier,...) and had bad attendence in paris before PSG bought the Paris Handball-Team. To make a KHL-team in further future possible at first the local interrest and attendence have to grow.

 

[bobbeaver]

I was thinking more of sponsoring a frech team in french league to grow interest in paris for the sport. handball was more popular in south-france(chambery, monpellier,...) and had bad attendence in paris before PSG bought the Paris Handball-Team. To make a KHL-team in further future possible at first the local interrest and attendence have to grow.

That is possible, it would be a new bling bling thing aswell. Something no one has among the arabs lol But they would need to build a new arena than. This only one has only 500 seats, and the main one in the omnisport is to big for now. They would need one up to 5k seater. I mean for arabs that is petty cash lol. But this is for now wishful thinking. But if a business plan was made and pitched who knows. hey have more money than they know what to do with.

 

[Jonimaus]

I was thinking more of sponsoring a frech team in french league to grow interest in paris for the sport. handball was more popular in south-france(chambery, monpellier,...) and had bad attendence in paris before PSG bought the Paris Handball-Team. To make a KHL-team in further future possible at first the local interrest and attendence have to grow.

But it doesn't make any sense to sponsor a team outside of Russia. It will be decades of fantastic marketing before hockey is a sport the average person in France cares about, if it will ever happen. Handball has always been a sport on the radar in France, so it's a decent way (still obviously not even close to football), to gain popularity, use it as a status symbol or whatever they are owning a team for.

If they really wanted to own a hockey team, why not grab an excisting team? Grab one in Russia or whatever. Trying to get a fresh new team for an extremely niche sport is just doomed to fail unless you have decades of patience, which I really doubt they have. Owning a team in Russia is instant recognition (I guess?) because KHL is big over there.

Besides, I'm not really sure what time-frame you guys are talking about. France won't be interested enough to justify having a KHL team within the next 20 years, that's for sure at least.