Confirmed with Link: Kevin Hayes 4: Don't sell when it only costs 50 million dollars to buy in (7x7.14)

[baudib1]

I really don't agree. I'm a believer in Patrick (ironically, more after last year than his rookie season) but he's not going to displace Coots as the No. 1 center on this team. Patrick has a very high floor, because he's already a good NHL player. I'd say his floor is actually similar to Hayes, a 45-point scorer with decent to good defense. His upside is probably capped around Johansen type, a very good No. 2 or low-end No. 1C with some years scoring over 70 points. Don't say Tavares.

I'd say Frost's upside is higher than Patrick's. There are plenty of worlds where Patrick is a better player than Frost, but Frost has maybe a 10% chance to be a Seguin or something, hitting 90 points or so if he ever takes control of the 1C/PP1 role.

 

[Jtown]

Yeah man, I'm with you on that. I believe in Patrick's talent, I just hope he really wants it. The flashes he's shown are elite, he just needs consistency obviously.

Hayes will be an expensive 3rd line center, but man if they are that deep good things will happen

Hayes will be an extremely expensive 3rd line center considering during the course of his contract Ghost, Coots, giroux and patrick will need to be resigned. There is no way going forward all those players will be together on their next contracts.

This signing just shows a general lack of understanding where we are in the process . I like Hayes. I don't like Hayes at 7 Years, and I don't like him at this cap hit for 7, add in the nmc and it becomes clear that Fletcher is exactly what we thought he was.

 

[baudib1]

Hayes will be an extremely expensive 3rd line winger considering during the course of his contract Ghost, Coots, giroux and patrick will need to be resigned. There is no way going forward all those players will be together on their next contracts.

This signing just shows a general lack of understanding where we are in the process . I like Hayes. I don't like Hayes at 7 Years, and I don't like him at this cap hit for 7, add in the nmc and it becomes clear that Fletcher is exactly what we thought he was.

fyp

 

[baudib1]

Last season really scarred people. I get it, it was definitely the worst Flyers season I can ever remember.

But blaming Patrick for the season is absurd. He had the same season he had as a rookie and we were a 98-point team with him as the 2C and Fippula as the 3C. It's simply not true that we simply CANNOT AFFORD TO RISK having Patrick as the 2C and hope to make the playoffs. Hextall f***ed up, Hakstol was godawful, the goalies were godawful, and quite a number of veterans had poor performances. The PP and PK struggled at historic levels, and Patrick had very little blame in that.

Anyway, just because you blame Patrick for that disaster of a season doesn't mean you change how your organization does things. Frost and Farabee and to a lesser extent, Morin, have earned the right to prove themselves in the NHL. It's actually the smart thing to do. The risk is very low. There's plenty of depth and putting them both in 3rd/4th line roles isn't going to sink the team. FFS the Blues won a Cup with Patrick Maroon at the end of the line making more than both Frost/Farabee combined.

The best chance the Flyers have to win a Cup over the next two seasons, before we have to maneuver around the ED, is for Frost and Farabee to be READY in 2021. That means getting them playoff experience THIS year.

 

[BiggE]

Hayes will be an extremely expensive 3rd line center considering during the course of his contract Ghost, Coots, giroux and patrick will need to be resigned. There is no way going forward all those players will be together on their next contracts.

This signing just shows a general lack of understanding where we are in the process . I like Hayes. I don't like Hayes at 7 Years, and I don't like him at this cap hit for 7, add in the nmc and it becomes clear that Fletcher is exactly what we thought he was.

Giroux will be what, 34? 35? when his current deal expires. There is a very good chance that he may not be re-signed.

 

[Outlaw Samurai]

So we have him for the ED...This is exactly what a lot of us were very concerned about.

Equally troubling to me is that Fletch hasn't been the strongest negotiator. Over 7 million AND 7 years AND a NMC for 3 years.

On ice, we should have a much improved team though.

 

[bennysflyers16]

Theres a world of difference between 'spending to the cap' and 'being competitive', but sure, I agree.

I look forward to draining our cap situation in 3 years by letting an expansion team happily take our 4th best defenseman or 5th best forward so that we could sign an average 2C.

Bookmark this post. When we win the cup before that happens, I'm happy to eat my crow - I've done it multiple times before - you ready to do the same?

I will bet you any amount of money we don’t just “Lose” that player you speak of.

 

[FlyingPhilly]

As if all the other moves so far have not been questionable...
NMC for three years and then NTC for four years?

Fire Fletcher

 

[bennysflyers16]

Last three seasons

Matt Duchene
242 games
170 points
0.702 ppg
Per 82 games - 58 points

Kevin Hayes
223 games
147 points
0.659 ppg
Per 82 games - 54 points

Glad the Fyers didn't do something really stupid like pay an extra 3 million on aav (give or take) for that extra few points a season.

Was funny here yesterday, local media were saying Hayes got too much, then people started posting how a lot of his fancy numbers crushed Schiefeles last year,

 

[Toonces]

Hayes will be an extremely expensive 3rd line center considering during the course of his contract Ghost, Coots, giroux and patrick will need to be resigned. There is no way going forward all those players will be together on their next contracts.

This signing just shows a general lack of understanding where we are in the process . I like Hayes. I don't like Hayes at 7 Years, and I don't like him at this cap hit for 7, add in the nmc and it becomes clear that Fletcher is exactly what we thought he was.

Yeah bud, I don't f***ing know. Chucky Two Trades might be a crap GM but I'm glad the team is at least on paper better than they were at the end of the season. I'm nearly 41 years old, I don't follow this stuff like I did when I was day 19 or so, but I'm just trying to be hopeful. I just want to see one Cup before I die, that's it. If might be selfish as f*** to say but if that happens I don't give a shit what happens after.

Fire Chucky, resign Gagne and Podein, I'll just try and not hold my breath

 

[bennysflyers16]

If we go the 7F, 3D, 1G route we protect
-G, Coots, Hayes, Patrick, Konecny, Lindbolm, Voracek
-Provorov, Sanheim, Myers
- Hart

Then we make a deal to Seattle not to take Ghost (hopefully we don’t trade him). give them picks/prospects.

This is insane,,, this could never happen.

We will lose Ghost for nothing, we can’t even trade him to another team , this really sucks and all we should worry about.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Wonder how much Hayes’ agent triggered Dave Scott when he leaked that Arizona & Columbus were options to Seravalli?

It's more sad than funny, but if we didn't laugh, I'm not sure how we would cope. Ed Snider to this ****ing lizard. Still not sure what we did to deserve this.

 

[bennysflyers16]

The only thing embarrassing around here is peoples short sightedness... and I say this as someone who was ok with trading 11th+ for Trouba.

And Trouba will also get a NMC, so we still lose Ghost and the 11th in your scenario.

 

[Tripod]

Last season really scarred people. I get it, it was definitely the worst Flyers season I can ever remember.

But blaming Patrick for the season is absurd. He had the same season he had as a rookie and we were a 98-point team with him as the 2C and Fippula as the 3C. It's simply not true that we simply CANNOT AFFORD TO RISK having Patrick as the 2C and hope to make the playoffs. Hextall ****ed up, Hakstol was godawful, the goalies were godawful, and quite a number of veterans had poor performances. The PP and PK struggled at historic levels, and Patrick had very little blame in that.

Anyway, just because you blame Patrick for that disaster of a season doesn't mean you change how your organization does things. Frost and Farabee and to a lesser extent, Morin, have earned the right to prove themselves in the NHL. It's actually the smart thing to do. The risk is very low. There's plenty of depth and putting them both in 3rd/4th line roles isn't going to sink the team. FFS the Blues won a Cup with Patrick Maroon at the end of the line making more than both Frost/Farabee combined.

The best chance the Flyers have to win a Cup over the next two seasons, before we have to maneuver around the ED, is for Frost and Farabee to be READY in 2021. That means getting them playoff experience THIS year.

No one should blame Patrick for the Flyers season. But 100% Patrick needs to be held accountable for his OWN season.

Patrick had 11 points from Oct to Jan 13th. ELEVEN!!! 3 month....11 points. Hayes in comparison had 33. Patrick was playing with other top players in a scoring role, and failed. You can't blame a new GM for not sitting and hoping things change....when 2 straight years Patrick has been MIA from Oct-mid/end of Jan.

And it's not just Patrick. Doing nothing also means you are betting on Frost for this year. So now you have to go 2 for 2 just to ice the lineup you want.

We all know it's too long and an overpay and a shit NMC. But the NMC does end before Couts new contract would kick in. But maybe here is the thinking. Maybe the plan is that in 2 years, after expansion, one of Patrick or Frost are traded to replace a Dman that is grabbed. Could happen. No one likes to look at it that way, but it's possible. We have that option.

Or maybe Hayes just slides to wing in a few years and then we always have someone who can shuffle to C when injuries occur. Nice option to have.

It's too early to say hiw all this plays out. But we are better today than a few days ago. Hayes can be a 50+ point C while providing good defense. And Patrick, well he should see this news and bust his ass all offseason to prove he is who we thought we were getting when we drafted him #2 overall. Come to camp with a chip on your shoulder, and actually produce from Oct-mid Jan for the 1st time in 3 years. And Frost....follow that lead. Kick ass and prove you belong.

 

[BiggE]

It's more sad than funny, but if we didn't laugh, I'm not sure how we would cope. Ed Snider to this ****ing lizard. Still not sure what we did to deserve this.

This is where the loss of Ed Snider really hurts. Snider might not of fired Hextall, but he very well might of told him something like, "look Ron, I know he's your guy, but Hakstol has to go, he's lost the team and he's in over his head. Fire him" Snider was probably the one guy Hextall would have listened to. OTOH, the fact that he was using one of the assistant coaches to be his ears in "the room", does not speak highly to Hextall's character and I can't imagine how pissed of the player Ron Hextall would have been if he knew that one of his coaches had been doing the same.

Up until the NMC, I was pretty happy with what Fletcher was doing. He unloaded the garbage players, fired the incompetent coach, brought in a respected, solid NHL coach to replace him, upgraded from Gudas, and while I don't love the Braun deal, it's far from a disaster or something that will do any real damage to the franchise. That all being said, the Hayes deal is just a total head scratcher. I don't care about the cap hit, that's simply the going rate for a 2nd line center in 2019. However, the 7 years and much more, the NMC, just annoy the hell out of me. I have to question Fletcher's ability to both negotiate, and, much more importantly, to know when to walk away. When Hayes' agent puts out his demand of 7 years, 50 million and the NMC, my response would have been: Look, we aren't going past 6 years and we aren't giving out any NMCs, our final offer is 6 years, 43.5 million (7.25 million aav). Take it or leave it and I'll need your answer by Thursday, or we are going to go in another direction.

Sometimes, you just have to walk away.

 

[qqaz]

Old:

Per reports (1st post updated): Kevin Hayes close to signing 7 years, $50M




Continue

3 years of no-trade? 12 team list for the other 4 years? Expansion protection? Did they let him write his own contract?

 

[hatcher]

3 years of no-trade? 12 team list for the other 4 years? Expansion protection? Did they let him write his own contract?

No those were his terms and flyers wanted the player so Patrick wouldn't be 2nd line center unless he earns it. They are and should be going 7-3-1 in expansion to protect the centers and the 3 d they like anyway.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Off the top of my head, Briere and Hartnell both refused to waive with Hartnell forcing the Flyers to trade him to one specific team for a terrible return.

Briere I remember, Hartnell I don't recall and a quick Google search doesn't say anything about him refusing to waive (but if he did ok, I just can't find anything saying he did). So that's two. And there might be a couple more. And there are similarly a bunch that have waived (Simmonds, LeCavalier, Coburn, Gagne, etc.), and that is just with the Flyers. Is it possible that the NMC forces us to expose someone that we otherwise wouldn't? Of course it is. But this idea that this is somehow written in stone is ridiculous. We see them waived routinely around the league, and again, two years from now we have no idea what the team looks like. The guy you are worried about losing may have been traded, or injured, or not worth protecting. Kevin hayes may put up big numbers over the next two years. Kevin Hayes might waive his NMC before the ED to go somewhere else. He might agree to waive it for the ED. Getting mad because there is a chance that he might maybe possibly be protected when there might maybe be someone else that we would rather protect is ridiculous. If this makes you mad then every trade and signing ever should make you mad because there is always a chance that the it won't work out.

 

[baudib1]

No one should blame Patrick for the Flyers season. But 100% Patrick needs to be held accountable for his OWN season.

Patrick had 11 points from Oct to Jan 13th. ELEVEN!!! 3 month....11 points. Hayes in comparison had 33. Patrick was playing with other top players in a scoring role, and failed. You can't blame a new GM for not sitting and hoping things change....when 2 straight years Patrick has been MIA from Oct-mid/end of Jan.

And it's not just Patrick. Doing nothing also means you are betting on Frost for this year. So now you have to go 2 for 2 just to ice the lineup you want.

We all know it's too long and an overpay and a **** NMC. But the NMC does end before Couts new contract would kick in. But maybe here is the thinking. Maybe the plan is that in 2 years, after expansion, one of Patrick or Frost are traded to replace a Dman that is grabbed. Could happen. No one likes to look at it that way, but it's possible. We have that option.

Or maybe Hayes just slides to wing in a few years and then we always have someone who can shuffle to C when injuries occur. Nice option to have.

It's too early to say hiw all this plays out. But we are better today than a few days ago. Hayes can be a 50+ point C while providing good defense. And Patrick, well he should see this news and bust his ass all offseason to prove he is who we thought we were getting when we drafted him #2 overall. Come to camp with a chip on your shoulder, and actually produce from Oct-mid Jan for the 1st time in 3 years. And Frost....follow that lead. Kick ass and prove you belong.

Sure, hold him accountable. Cut down on his ham sandwich allowance. There was never a realistic scenario in which Patrick wasn't a key part of this team this season and presumably, for many seasons to come, so really, I'm more concerned about Frost not having a spot to play. This cap space that went to Hayes would have been more efficiently spent on improving other parts of the team, for instance, adding a Spurgeon instead of Braun or Niskanen, or adding a winger who can help Patrick.

Let us not forget that Patrick was playing fine until Haktard split up him and Lindblom. And yes Patrick's slump went even longer than Lindblom's but he looked downright dominant half the time over the second half of the year.

Channeling inner Striker ... we saw Couturier misused by Berube in his second season. It didn't mean that Couturier was terrible or couldn't/wouldn't improve.

 

[The Madrigal]

No one should blame Patrick for the Flyers season. But 100% Patrick needs to be held accountable for his OWN season.

Patrick had 11 points from Oct to Jan 13th. ELEVEN!!! 3 month....11 points. Hayes in comparison had 33. Patrick was playing with other top players in a scoring role, and failed. You can't blame a new GM for not sitting and hoping things change....when 2 straight years Patrick has been MIA from Oct-mid/end of Jan.

And it's not just Patrick. Doing nothing also means you are betting on Frost for this year. So now you have to go 2 for 2 just to ice the lineup you want.

We all know it's too long and an overpay and a **** NMC. But the NMC does end before Couts new contract would kick in. But maybe here is the thinking. Maybe the plan is that in 2 years, after expansion, one of Patrick or Frost are traded to replace a Dman that is grabbed. Could happen. No one likes to look at it that way, but it's possible. We have that option.

Or maybe Hayes just slides to wing in a few years and then we always have someone who can shuffle to C when injuries occur. Nice option to have.

It's too early to say hiw all this plays out. But we are better today than a few days ago. Hayes can be a 50+ point C while providing good defense. And Patrick, well he should see this news and bust his ass all offseason to prove he is who we thought we were getting when we drafted him #2 overall. Come to camp with a chip on your shoulder, and actually produce from Oct-mid Jan for the 1st time in 3 years. And Frost....follow that lead. Kick ass and prove you belong.

One of the very rare, rational, fair and balanced posts that I have seen over the last few days. Everyone loves to pick a side and take things to an extreme, ignoring the massive grey areas that exist with most things.

They overpaid for Hayes, but it was necessary. 2C was a huge need and there was really nothing left on the market. The alternative was to trade 11, or Frost, or a combination of picks and prospects. They elected to overpay for a free agent as a result so it is what it is. There is good and bad to the deal but at the end of the day they are a much better on the ice for having Hayes as a Flyer.

 

[Deadpool8812]

No one should blame Patrick for the Flyers season. But 100% Patrick needs to be held accountable for his OWN season.

Patrick had 11 points from Oct to Jan 13th. ELEVEN!!! 3 month....11 points. Hayes in comparison had 33. Patrick was playing with other top players in a scoring role, and failed. You can't blame a new GM for not sitting and hoping things change....when 2 straight years Patrick has been MIA from Oct-mid/end of Jan.

And it's not just Patrick. Doing nothing also means you are betting on Frost for this year. So now you have to go 2 for 2 just to ice the lineup you want.

We all know it's too long and an overpay and a **** NMC. But the NMC does end before Couts new contract would kick in. But maybe here is the thinking. Maybe the plan is that in 2 years, after expansion, one of Patrick or Frost are traded to replace a Dman that is grabbed. Could happen. No one likes to look at it that way, but it's possible. We have that option.

Or maybe Hayes just slides to wing in a few years and then we always have someone who can shuffle to C when injuries occur. Nice option to have.

It's too early to say hiw all this plays out. But we are better today than a few days ago. Hayes can be a 50+ point C while providing good defense. And Patrick, well he should see this news and bust his ass all offseason to prove he is who we thought we were getting when we drafted him #2 overall. Come to camp with a chip on your shoulder, and actually produce from Oct-mid Jan for the 1st time in 3 years. And Frost....follow that lead. Kick ass and prove you belong.

Stop making sense. It isn't allowed here

 

[Nabrules]

Fletcher traded Tuxh and Haula to protect Scandella, who Sabres fans a year later are dying to pass off on someone, nay, ANYONE else.

I beg your forgiveness if I'm less than confident that our current GM has any idea on how to navigate an expansion draft.

That’s False. They traded Tuch and Haula to protect Dumba not Scandella.

 

[Tripod]

You know who IS happy? Giroux. You think Giroux was sitting at home thinking "we should just wait and see how these kids turn out". No, he wants to win as a Flyer. He is seeing a GM add to the team to try and help them all win now....something Hextall should have done last year. He saw a C added who is likely to post what an improved Patrick would post anyways. And now we have the possibility of teams having to worry about 3 lines, instead of one. Now that is refreshing.

Last 3 years, Hayes has paced for 53, 47 and 64 points. If he gets to be a 50+ point C with good defense, AND helps the PK, is that so bad? Patrick was "projected" to be a 60 point C with good defense as a #2 overall pick.

But next year I fully expect to see the responses:

Patrick plays well: we didn't need to sign Hayes
Patrick plays poorly: it's because Hayes is blocking him

And the counter will be:

Patrick plays well: signing Hayes helped shelter Patrick
Patrick plays poorly: Good job we signed Hayes

Fletch overpaid for him. Now he needs to make back that 1 million by signing some good RFA contracts. That was something Holmgren was good at. Let's see if he can get it done.

 

[dingbathero]

I like that Hayes is here. It's a positive thing.

I am now concerned about the ED protection.

Flyers better play some inspired f***ing hockey from here on out. I don't want the same f***ing excuses - 60 mins, bad starts, etc.

 

[baudib1]

I mean Giroux would have wanted Simmonds extended. Appeal to emotion/authority all in one post!