Confirmed with Link: Kessel and a 4th to Arizona for Galchenyuk and PO Joseph

[Gurglesons]

we have no room to talk, Galchenyuck might be the worst pens player this year.

We likely would have had to lose Rust and not sign Tanev to afford Kessel.

I love having the depth of a Kahun, Rust, Tanev and McCann on one of each line. Much more than having two time cup champion Kessel.

 

[billybudd]

No, because I didn't dismiss Kessel's garbage advanced stats last year, I took into account the very obvious context that due to injury and the coaching staff's insistence on using JJ as a top 4 defenseman, Kessel was playing in front of JJ and a hobbled Schultz - guys who deep-sixed the underlying numbers of every forward they played with. Kessel (and Malkin, who had a similar drop) simply had the misfortune of playing the lion's share of his time with black holes.

Even Crosby saw a bigger decline when playing with JJ last year than Kessel did, it's just that Crosby played with JJ for a smaller percentage of his time and his baseline numbers were better.

I can cite the numbers if you're doubtful.

To claim that Kessel's obviously poor work at even strength last season is solely the fault of other people is to "dismiss Kessel's garbage advanced stats last year." People pulled this routine with Beau Bennett for 5 years. "It's not that he's bad, it's just that everyone and everything else is working against him." They blamed Adams, you blame Johnson. They blamed the coaches (3 different ones), you blame the coaches.

This is an emotional form of argument, not a rational one. You're proceeding from "I like this player" and working backwards from that to find an explanation for his poor play that doesn't fault him, rather than looking at things dispassionately to try to figure out what's going on.

Sometimes a thing is exactly what it looks like it is. Visibly, Kessel's play at even strength was bad. His play, not "everyone else's but his." The data agreed.

This convinced the Penguins, rightly or wrongly, that that early 30s washup thing that usually happens to players who don't take fitness seriously was at risk of happening to Kessel and that they didn't want to be holding the $21 million contract bomb when it went off. So they moved him for a guy with an expiring contract. Early indications are that they moved him just in the nick of time, though it's possible he still has some hockey left.

There's nothing else to this story. No conspiracies about coaches, nothing. Just a player getting older and a team that didn't think he had 3 more years of marquee money hockey in him.

How do you come to that conclusion when Kessel is leading his team in PP points with more than anyone on the Pens?

Yeah, that one extra point in 4 more games than the guy who took his spot sure would make a difference. Really salivating over the kind of production that ties a man for 1st in man-advantage points on the 21st-best powerplay in the league.

 

[EightyOne]

 

[HandshakeLine]

Liking the office space meme. Completely tuning out anything about Petr Krasenecký tho.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I was honestly surprised he wasn't moved after we were eliminated by the Caps. He was throwing fits on the bench more than usual down the stretch and generally being an emotional, petulant brat. Genuinely thought he was gone that summer, and in hindsight, probably should've been. Even with his numerous issues, a 92pt campaign probably would've gotten everyone interested. But, maybe not, after an 82pt campaign we got two suitors, only one of which was a destination he was okay with being traded to.

I guess the "elite numbers" and "sweetheart deal" weren't enough to make up for the fact that he's a complete liability without the puck on his stick in the offensive zone, he quits at the drop of a hat, and that he's a temperamental headcase.

Glad he was instrumental in us winning the back to back Cups, don't get me wrong, but I'm also glad he's gone. He was past his expiration date by a calendar year by the time he was traded.

 

[HandshakeLine]

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

To claim that Kessel's obviously poor work at even strength last season is solely the fault of other people is to "dismiss Kessel's garbage advanced stats last year." People pulled this routine with Beau Bennett for 5 years. "It's not that he's bad, it's just that everyone and everything else is working against him." They blamed Adams, you blame Johnson. They blamed the coaches (3 different ones), you blame the coaches.

This is an emotional form of argument, not a rational one. You're proceeding from "I like this player" and working backwards from that to find an explanation for his poor play that doesn't fault him, rather than looking at things dispassionately to try to figure out what's going on.

Sometimes a thing is exactly what it looks like it is. Visibly, Kessel's play at even strength was bad. His play, not "everyone else's but his." The data agreed.

Except the data does not agree when you take the very obvious variable into account: spending an inordinate amount of time with players who bring down everyone on the team (including the best players of their generation) and the huge sample size of how well the player performs when that variable is removed...in the seasons before, and after, and within the season in question.

That is the rational argument. The irrational argument is treating an elite producer with warts as a scapegoat when his circumstances changed and even the very best the league has to offer (including his generational center linemate) were not capable of overcoming those circumstances.

This convinced the Penguins, rightly or wrongly, that that early 30s washup thing that usually happens to players who don't take fitness seriously was at risk of happening to Kessel and that they didn't want to be holding the $21 million contract bomb when it went off. So they moved him for a guy with an expiring contract. Early indications are that they moved him just in the nick of time, though it's possible he still has some hockey left.

There's nothing else to this story. No conspiracies about coaches, nothing. Just a player getting older and a team that didn't think he had 3 more years of marquee money hockey in him.

Yeah, well, I happen to think wrongly. And Kessel's numbers with and without the variables and the Pens performance this year in areas where Kessel thrived aren't working in their favour at the moment.

Yeah, that one extra point in 4 more games than the guy who took his spot sure would make a difference. Really salivating over the kind of production that ties a man for 1st in man-advantage points on the 21st-best powerplay in the league.

Yes, Kessel is outproducing our best players on the PP while playing for a very offensively challenged team.

Think how absurd it is to frame that as an argument against Kessel's PP prowess.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Kessel tonight: 0 points, -1, 22.73% CF% and 8.30% xGF%

Underlying numbers tho

Edit: lol he got an assist right when I posted this

This shouldn't be a surprise. He has a habit of being in the line-up and producing.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

We likely would have had to lose Rust and not sign Tanev to afford Kessel.

I love having the depth of a Kahun, Rust, Tanev and McCann on one of each line. Much more than having two time cup champion Kessel.

If you ignore that we're still employing Bjugstad and JJ and have since jettisoned Gudbranson, sure.

The argument that our cap situation simply didn't allow for us to retain an elite winger on a bargain deal when we had and have a pile of goobers making good dough is flimsy as Kessel's flex.

 

[Gurglesons]

If you ignore that we're still employing Bjugstad and JJ and have since jettisoned Gudbranson, sure.

The argument that our cap situation simply didn't allow for us to retain an elite winger on a bargain deal when we had and have a pile of goobers making good dough is flimsy as Kessel's flex.

Ah. Forgot we are in fantasy world where we can easily move Gudbranson, Bjugstad and JJ for nothing and immediately have cap to sign and keep our good players.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

To claim that Kessel's obviously poor work at even strength last season is solely the fault of other people is to "dismiss Kessel's garbage advanced stats last year." People pulled this routine with Beau Bennett for 5 years. "It's not that he's bad, it's just that everyone and everything else is working against him." They blamed Adams, you blame Johnson. They blamed the coaches (3 different ones), you blame the coaches.

This is an emotional form of argument, not a rational one. You're proceeding from "I like this player" and working backwards from that to find an explanation for his poor play that doesn't fault him, rather than looking at things dispassionately to try to figure out what's going on.

Sometimes a thing is exactly what it looks like it is. Visibly, Kessel's play at even strength was bad. His play, not "everyone else's but his." The data agreed.

This convinced the Penguins, rightly or wrongly, that that early 30s washup thing that usually happens to players who don't take fitness seriously was at risk of happening to Kessel and that they didn't want to be holding the $21 million contract bomb when it went off. So they moved him for a guy with an expiring contract. Early indications are that they moved him just in the nick of time, though it's possible he still has some hockey left.

There's nothing else to this story. No conspiracies about coaches, nothing. Just a player getting older and a team that didn't think he had 3 more years of marquee money hockey in him.







Yeah, that one extra point in 4 more games than the guy who took his spot sure would make a difference. Really salivating over the kind of production that ties a man for 1st in man-advantage points on the 21st-best powerplay in the league.

Whenever I read a post like this about Kessel, that has lots of validity, I always substitute Geno in, and see if it still holds water. And it largely does. What no Pens fan likes to admit, is that's it's just as emotional to think Geno is still an elite, goal-scoring two-way center in the league who drives play. He's been injury riddled for years, has difficulty even eating healthy in the offseason let alone working out properly, and is now effectively a power play specialist who has lost his shot thanks to JVR and time. I love Phil and Geno both as players and for what they brought to the Pens, but the reality is that the flashes of brilliance from Geno will be fewer and farther between, and he needs a lot of support to achieve those peaks.

And that brings us back to the failure of the Kessel trade. It was getting harder and harder to make Geno + Kessel successful at ES, so dumping the one who wasn't a franchise cornerstone was most likely the right call, but they needed to bring in an actual two-way player who can do some dirty work for Geno. So the opposite of AG. I really expected them to just flip him for futures or in a hockey deal before the season started, but JR got caught admiring his pass and now AG is in a downward spiral in a contract year trying to shoot the puck between his legs and similar nonsense. Jesse just looked at AG's underlying stats in long form, they are also not good. He's dragging everyone down he plays with.

So how can anyone who hated the way Kessel played be ok with how AG is playing and his continued spot on the roster? At the very least Kessel filled a definitive need for us on the PP, AG doesn't even do that.

The Kessel deal was only good for us for if we can, in fact, get rid of AG without taking back a husk or get him to play the right way this year. I'm not sure either is possible. If they trade AG for a Victor Rask who sucks and has term, I'm just going to lose it.

 

[HandshakeLine]

 

[Gurglesons]

Whenever I read a post like this about Kessel, that has lots of validity, I always substitute Geno in, and see if it still holds water. And it largely does. What no Pens fan likes to admit, is that's it's just as emotional to think Geno is still an elite, goal-scoring two-way center in the league who drives play. He's been injury riddled for years, has difficulty even eating healthy in the offseason let alone working out properly, and is now effectively a power play specialist who has lost his shot thanks to JVR and time. I love Phil and Geno both as players and for what they brought to the Pens, but the reality is that the flashes of brilliance from Geno will be fewer and farther between, and he needs a lot of support to achieve those peaks.

And that brings us back to the failure of the Kessel trade. It was getting harder and harder to make Geno + Kessel successful at ES, so dumping the one who wasn't a franchise cornerstone was most likely the right call, but they needed to bring in an actual two-way player who can do some dirty work for Geno. So the opposite of AG. I really expected them to just flip him for futures or in a hockey deal before the season started, but JR got caught admiring his pass and now AG is in a downward spiral in a contract year trying to shoot the puck between his legs and similar nonsense. Jesse just looked at AG's underlying stats in long form, they are also not good. He's dragging everyone down he plays with.

So how can anyone who hated the way Kessel played be ok with how AG is playing and his continued spot on the roster? At the very least Kessel filled a definitive need for us on the PP, AG doesn't even do that.

The Kessel deal was only good for us for if we can, in fact, get rid of AG without taking back a husk or get him to play the right way this year. I'm not sure either is possible. If they trade AG for a Victor Rask who sucks and has term, I'm just going to lose it.

The Kessel trade was not about acquiring Alex Galchenyuk.

The Kessel trade was not about acquiring Alex Galchenyuk.

The Kessel trade was not about acquiring Alex Galchenyuk.

The Kessel trade was not about acquiring Alex Galchenyuk.

 

[EightyOne]

Whenever I read a post like this about Kessel, that has lots of validity, I always substitute Geno in, and see if it still holds water. And it largely does. What no Pens fan likes to admit, is that's it's just as emotional to think Geno is still an elite, goal-scoring two-way center in the league who drives play. He's been injury riddled for years, has difficulty even eating healthy in the offseason let alone working out properly, and is now effectively a power play specialist who has lost his shot thanks to JVR and time. I love Phil and Geno both as players and for what they brought to the Pens, but the reality is that the flashes of brilliance from Geno will be fewer and farther between, and he needs a lot of support to achieve those peaks.

And that brings us back to the failure of the Kessel trade. It was getting harder and harder to make Geno + Kessel successful at ES, so dumping the one who wasn't a franchise cornerstone was most likely the right call, but they needed to bring in an actual two-way player who can do some dirty work for Geno. So the opposite of AG. I really expected them to just flip him for futures or in a hockey deal before the season started, but JR got caught admiring his pass and now AG is in a downward spiral in a contract year trying to shoot the puck between his legs and similar nonsense. Jesse just looked at AG's underlying stats in long form, they are also not good. He's dragging everyone down he plays with.

So how can anyone who hated the way Kessel played be ok with how AG is playing and his continued spot on the roster? At the very least Kessel filled a definitive need for us on the PP, AG doesn't even do that.

The Kessel deal was only good for us for if we can, in fact, get rid of AG without taking back a husk or get him to play the right way this year. I'm not sure either is possible. If they trade AG for a Victor Rask who sucks and has term, I'm just going to lose it.

Where the hell is the downvote button?

 

[Gurglesons]

Also, let’s be honest anyone that has criticized Kessel is very disappointed in Galchenyuk right now.

 

[Beauner]

fwiw, so far I haven't seen Galchenyuk abandon the puck at the slightest sign of contact, or make a tape-to-tape pass directly to an opponent's stick. So he has that going for him.

 

[EightyOne]

Also, let’s be honest anyone that has criticized Kessel is very disappointed in Galchenyuk right now.

Exactly. Literally no one is comparing the two except those who are staying at Kamp Kessel.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Kessel is dummy thicc.

 

[EightyOne]

Kessel is dummy thicc.

Imagine how fast he could have skated if HE ate better and exercised. Cause he burned the league for the better part of a decade as a doughboy.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Shockwaves from his thicc thighs slapping decimate opponents on the forecheck. Kessel scores 150 points for the next six seasons, before starting a lucrative career in high budget hip hop videos.

 

[Shady Machine]

The Kessel trade was not about acquiring Alex Galchenyuk.

The Kessel trade was not about acquiring Alex Galchenyuk.

The Kessel trade was not about acquiring Alex Galchenyuk.

The Kessel trade was not about acquiring Alex Galchenyuk.

You don't think JR wanted Galchenyuk? Of course the PRIMARY reason wasn't specifically to get Galchenyuk, but trading Kessel for a lesser skilled top 6 winger was still a priority and so far Galchenyuk has been a major flop. Are we not allowed to critique the trade value?

 

[Empoleon8771]

You don't think JR wanted Galchenyuk? Of course the PRIMARY reason wasn't specifically to get Galchenyuk, but trading Kessel for a lesser skilled top 6 winger was still a priority and so far Galchenyuk has been a major flop. Are we not allowed to critique the trade value?

I mean, Kessel has also been ass for the Coyotes though. If you want to judge Galchenyuk for being bad here to say it was bad value, I'd point out that Kessel has been bad in Arizona so it's about fair value.

 

[Shady Machine]

I mean, Kessel has also been ass for the Coyotes though. If you want to judge Galchenyuk for being bad here to say it was bad value, I'd point out that Kessel has been bad in Arizona so it's about fair value.

Question is whether Kessel would be ass here this year. Anyway, I'm very disappointed in Galchenyuk but it's still relatively early. He will get his chance to shine now with Sid out. I personally think Kessel would help us in the current situation more, but understand the other factors that drove trading Kessel and Tanev has been a nice add.

 

[Gurglesons]

You don't think JR wanted Galchenyuk? Of course the PRIMARY reason wasn't specifically to get Galchenyuk, but trading Kessel for a lesser skilled top 6 winger was still a priority and so far Galchenyuk has been a major flop. Are we not allowed to critique the trade value?

I think JR took what little cap commitment he could get with slight upside.

The point of trading Kessel was the fact he wanted to redistribute cap after signing Jake and the burned relationship.

Also did Chicago want Reasoner?

Did NYR want Namestinkov or Spooner?

I think the idea that Phil was moved for Galchenyuk is faulty. Phil was moved to get out of Phil’s contract and Chucky is what came back.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Exactly. Literally no one is comparing the two except those who are staying at Kamp Kessel.

I don't like that we acquired AG but I am very high on this "$6.8 million dollars of freedom" prospect that I think is going to make it to Pittsburgh by next year.