Ken Dryden - Hockey Has a Gigantic-Goalie Problem

pvr

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I think the latest round of reductions has got goalies to a good place. Defensive schemes are more damaging IMO, especially the ones built on daring the refs to make constant soft calls.




Note the stick left by RNH right before Puljujarvi shoots. Without that there is no goal, even with that much space

Looks like a lot of room from the distant straight on viewpoint, but likely a lot less when shooting from that close and also considering the angle required for puck elevation over the goalie out on top of the crease. The actual “open” area is less.
 
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Lazlo Hollyfeld

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Dryden forgot to mention that there was a disincentive for goalies to drop on their knees back in the 60s and 70s. The butterfly style was known (Tony Esposito invented it), but not employed often because the fabric of the pads they used was full of camel hair or who knows what else and it soaked up the water on the ice. By the third period the waterlogged pads would get super heavy, inhibiting mobility.

With the introduction of space-age water resistant fabrics in the 80s, this no longer became a problem and goalies like Patrick Roy could use the butterfly style exclusively. Helmet/facial protection also advanced to the point where goalies no longer feared getting hit in the face, so they crouched more, with their faces closer to the ice and where the puck was coming from.

And that's the big difference right there: The stance. Goalies in the 60s and 70s stood almost completely upright all the time, keeping their heads above the crossbar. They only protected the net with the bottom half of their body. Today's goalies are perpetually crouching, with their heads below the crossbar. A crouching goalie is using all of his body to cover more of the net. No part of him is wasted.

These things have been known for decades and Dryden is not pointing out anything new. For instance: The goalie wearing an oversized chest protector so when he plops down in front he pushes it up past his ears and his head tucks in like a turtle, it takes away the shooting space above his shoulders.... JS Giguere invented that style in the 03 playoffs. They called him the Giggy Puff Marshmallow Man because his pads were so big, and the plop on your knees, pushing your chest protector up is nicknamed the "Easter Island Head Statue" because that's what you look like: A big square block that just absorbs the puck.

Same with the reverse-H technique of protecting goalposts. It's essentially constructing a wall as if your limbs are Tetris pieces and they fit snug against the post like so. If done correctly and in a timely manner there is zero chance anyone can score from the corner or behind the net.

So these issues aren't new. I don't like his suggestions of increasing the width of the nets though. Lacrosse did that and it led to football scores (which I guess is good for excitement but I never liked that much scoring).

But above all what's happened is that goalies have simply gotten better while the net has remained the same. They are better equipped, better trained, better prepared, in better shape, and they're bigger, faster, and more educated in systems and techniques. They have essentially optimized the objective of total net coverage in any given situation as much as they can, and there's nothing the league can do about it.

Except make the nets bigger.
Dryden specifically mentions both the leather pads with horsehair and the additional risk of taking a shot to the face as reasons why goalies stood up.

Getting hit in the face with a puck, at least until the advent of much more protective masks in the 1980s, always seemed a bad bargain. If you watch game footage from the 1970s or earlier, you’ll see that most goalies played in an upright “stand up” style, for safety if not for efficiency. But with new masks that protected the head as much as a catching glove does the hand, goalies could bring the rest of their body down to fill more of the net,

Pads that had been made of heavy leather, deer hair, and felt were replaced with nylon, plastic, and foam rubber. These lighter materials, which made the pads less awkward to move around in and less tiring to wear, could then also be made bigger. And bigger equipment, covering a body now in position below the bar, filled even more space.

And he makes the interesting point that there's really little reason for goalies to stand up at all these days, other than to stretch their legs.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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I think the latest round of reductions has got goalies to a good place. Defensive schemes are more damaging IMO, especially the ones built on daring the refs to make constant soft calls.




Note the stick left by RNH right before Puljujarvi shoots. Without that there is no goal, even with that much space

I think there's still some trims to be made. The surface area of the glove could probably come down a bit, and certainly the wrist portion of the glove could be narrowed or even angled as much of it isn't protecting the actual wrist.

But Agree the defensive schemes and shot blocking are certainly playing a big role as well.
 

Sparty

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Let each home team decide what size nets they want before each game, let's add some strategy.

You're hosting Edmonton, decrease net size! Playing against Anaheim, make them bigger!
 

BrokenFace

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My understanding is that goalies will get a lot more injuries going into the butterfly if you shrink the inside of their leg pads but, other than that, SHRINK THE PADS.
 

LakeLivin

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A lot of people have noted the improvements in sticks over time, but I haven't seen anyone acknowledge that there have also been technological improvements in goalie equipment beyond just increased size. I've never played the position but I've got to believe the modern goalie equipment is significantly lighter than it used to be. I'm guessing that other properties have improved as well, e.g., better rebound control?

Not making an argument that the technological improvements in goalie equipment alone are enough to offset the improvements in composite sticks, but that should be included in the equation when evaluating the issue.
 
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Breakers

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He talked about this a couple years back I believe and brought up Ryan Miller for instance who wears everything in XXL despite being 165 pounds
 

BobCole

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There are a lot of comments in this thread from people who clearly haven't read the article. I can't say I blame them - Ken Dryden used 5,000 words (!!) to express a point that could have been made with 500 words. I like Dryden but I don't think a treatise was necessary to make his point.

Anyway, I don't agree with every point Dryden makes (particularly his point that goalies could stay on their knees for the entire game but choose not to for optics' sake...what?!?!), but I think his premise is correct: goalies occupy more of the net than they used to and we should consider making some changes to account for it.

I'm usually a hockey traditionalist but I don't think it's blasphemous to consider making the net larger. It would be a painful transition but I think it would help alleviate the problem.
 

Pez68

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This is Lundqvist before they reduced the pads twice and reduced the pants and chest protectors, viewing hockey from a side angle on tv broadcasts doesn't do goalies any justice.

This really isn't representative of what a shooter sees. Goalies don't sit on the goal line like that. Move Lundqvist out to the top of the blue paint. That's what most shooters will see.
 

Weztex

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Yeah, the game has changed "a bit" since Dryden's days. I mean come on, looking at his highlights it looks like a completely different game back then.



Dryden was a great goalie. He is also a pompous ass, and comparing eras of goaltending is ridiculous. Put out the skaters of 1972 in the equipment they wore with the sticks they used against the goalies of today and the goalies would excel. Put out the skaters of today and their sticks against the goalies of 1970 and they too would excel.
The argument that goalies today are too big belies the fact that everything about the game has changed.

Hum okay? What’s your point? Did you just see ‘’Ken Dryden’’ and assume he was talking about good old days?

Dryden isn’t putting this era of goalies in opposition to his own at all. He’s talking about how equipement design has dangerously become a solution for limitation of technique development, and how the game of ‘’taking up’’ space has an negative impact on the way the game is played offensively. The very changes you brought up are even mentioned in the article you didn’t read.
 

DustyMartellaughs

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Hum okay? What’s your point? Did you just see ‘’Ken Dryden’’ and assume he was talking about good old days?

Dryden isn’t putting this era of goalies in opposition to his own at all. He’s talking about how equipement design has dangerously become a solution for limitation of technique development, and how the game of ‘’taking up’’ space has an negative impact on the way the game is played offensively. The very changes you brought up are even mentioned in the article you didn’t read.

I read it, but thanks. It’s nonsense. The game evolves. There was a time goalies didn’t ever leave their crease, didn’t have curved sticks, didn’t wear face masks.
There was a time when all field goal kickers kicked straight on.
Sports evolve. Sometimes attitudes don’t. I’m a goalie, and was all for the equipment being downsized over the last decade or so. Dryden, though, laments the way goalies of today PLAY, not just the fact the equipment is bigger.
That’s asinine. Goalies do what works against the greatest percentage of shots. should they not?
Glenn Hall and Tony Esposito were both early practitioners of a butterfly save, dropping to their knees. Was that “wrong”?
 
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Doctor No

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Is that why goaltending has sucked this season? Every night, there are multiple goalies that have save-% between .750 and .850 or so. Last night:

Matt Murray .769
Marcus Högberg .800
Linus Ullmark .857

Those would be terrible even in 1980s NHL.

Why are you looking at single-game save percentages and comparing them to 1980s full-season save percentages?

Save percentage is an averaging statistic with a fixed maximum, and it usually takes 5-6 above average games to offset one poor game. I can assure you that 1980s NHL goaltenders had poor single-game totals.
 
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Richard

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Save you’re breath......

......the “equipment is so big” die hards will be along soon.

Equipment keeps getting smaller, goalies keep getting better, but it’s always the same tired argument.
No it isn't-Watch Roy Butterfly without cheaters-yes his pads were larger but he had to actually stop a five hole shot with his stick or squeeze. You can totally close the five hole with your knees 8 inches apart.

f*** the goalie pads smaller. Make a 6 by 5 net.
 

ScaryCarey31

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Looks like a lot of room from the distant straight on viewpoint, but likely a lot less when shooting from that close and also considering the angle required for puck elevation over the goalie out on top of the crease. The actual “open” area is less.
Because goalies are now elite at playing angles and don't flop around like maniacs.
 
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ScaryCarey31

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This really isn't representative of what a shooter sees. Goalies don't sit on the goal line like that. Move Lundqvist out to the top of the blue paint. That's what most shooters will see.
I'm aware of that, but that speaks to the advancement of the goaltending position, being big is an optical illusion, goaltenders put themselves in positions where they are least likely to be scored on. With the advancement of composite sticks, it is humanly impossible to react to a shot within 10 ft of the net. Even if you reduced the equipment further or made the nets a couple inches bigger, goalies will continue to play this way and wall themselves up as much as possible.
 

Northern Avs Fan

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There’s no need to make equipment smaller, or increase the size of the net.

Goal scoring is plenty high enough already. I haven’t dug into the stats, but I feel like there’s been lots of 6+ goal games this season.
 
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McOilers97

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There’s no need to make equipment smaller, or increase the size of the net.

Goal scoring is plenty high enough already. I haven’t dug into the stats, but I feel like there’s been lots of 6+ goal games this season.

The argument doesn't seem to be that the game isn't high scoring enough though. Dryden's issue is that the goalies now largely have to move less than ever because of the combo of bigger equipment and butterfly technique that leaves few holes to shoot at. These guys are great athletes, don't get me wrong, but athleticism from the goalie position is now less essential than it has ever been, because movement opens up more holes than just staying down in one place. So the job is kind of being done for them by the equipment and technique, instead of athleticism and reflexes/instincts.

I think he has a point.
 

MarkusKetterer

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This. If the glove below was good enough for Gump . . .

d742fc99aa754513b933f9d4e17f7265_front.jpg


Ok, maybe a little bit bigger, but no need for the fishing net size used today.

I used to have this set of Esso cards! Well it was a set until I decided that they might be stickers and tried to peel one.
 
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SladeWilson23

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This is Lundqvist before they reduced the pads twice and reduced the pants and chest protectors, viewing hockey from a side angle on tv broadcasts doesn't do goalies any justice.

The majority of shot attempts in the NHL come from angles. Straight on shots just aren't much of a thing. Even in the picture you posted, there's still not a lot of net to shoot at.

I don't care how many goals are actually being scored. I know scoring has been up in recent years. There just isn't enough net to shoot at.
 

Northern Avs Fan

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The argument doesn't seem to be that the game isn't high scoring enough though. Dryden's issue is that the goalies now largely have to move less than ever because of the combo of bigger equipment and butterfly technique that leaves few holes to shoot at. These guys are great athletes, don't get me wrong, but athleticism from the goalie position is now less essential than it has ever been, because movement opens up more holes than just staying down in one place. So the job is kind of being done for them by the equipment and technique, instead of athleticism and reflexes/instincts.

I think he has a point.

He’s absolutely right that goaltending is easier with bigger equipment.

I just don’t want the NHL to adjust things to the point where we see 10-9 games.
 
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pvr

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Because goalies are now elite at playing angles and don't flop around like maniacs.
Ok. What I stated had nothing to do with goalies flopping around.

A statement was made regarding amount of space to shoot through looking from a perspective far different than the shooter was experiencing. His area to shoot through was likely far less than that perspective gave the viewer.
 

MakeTheGoalsLarger

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Goalies need bigger protection because the composite sticks produce harder shots? Go back to wooden sticks then.

I see no benefit in the use of composite sticks for the game. It makes it harder to tracks shots as a spectator. There's limit to the speed that makes a game enjoyable to watch and the NHL is past that threshold.
 

StrangeVision

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It would make the sport more exciting if goalie athleticism got favored more and positioning/coverage got favored less.

I think this is a separate issue than amount of goals scored.

Sometimes we focus too much on symptoms instead of the underlying problems and sometimes results of change are counterintuitive so I decline to suggest certain problems or fixes.

They are one and the same.

A goalie doesn't get into proper position if they aren't athletic, people still don't seem understand that. It was the increase in athleticism that enabled more efficient and more effective modern technique (which was also aided by lighter equipment and one of the most revolutionary goalie equipment advancements- the knee stack/landing gear, which allowed goalies to drop to their knees regularly and to slide around on their knees).

What people really want is the elimination of goalie instruction. Get rid of goalie coaches and camps and you'll see a return to sloppy, "athletic" goaltending.
 

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