Player Discussion Jonathan Drouin: To C Or Not to C

[Habs Icing]

So what's full value for a high skill player with attitude problems?

It's either going to be another high skilled player with his own set of attitude/work ethic/defensive issues or a lesser skilled player without those issues. What else is there?

Apparently, our GM thought a skilled player with attitude problems was worth a potential #1 d-man.

 

[DAChampion]

Also in those 46 games his shooting percent was 26% and he was averaging barely over 2 shots a game, not exactly a very sustainable pace given the lack of shots he was still getting.

That's true, but Galchenyuk did well in multiple stints at centre.

Moreover, he was drafted to be a centre on a team which needed a centre. He should have just been left at centre for an extended period and allowed to learn, as most teams do with their good prospects. For example, the Habs allowed both Desharnais and Drouin to struggle for extended periods, the idea was that it was part of the learning process.

 

[DAChampion]

Apparently, our GM thought a skilled player with attitude problems was worth a potential #1 d-man.

I assume that they thought that Sergachev could bust. I'll remind you that many on this board were arguing that Sergachev was the wrong pick at #9, and that he was likely to bust. It's plausible that Sergachev would have in fact busted in Montreal.

Montreal would have discouraged him from producing offense, whereas Tampa did the opposite.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

That's true, but Galchenyuk did well in multiple stints at centre.

Moreover, he was drafted to be a centre on a team which needed a centre. He should have just been left at centre for an extended period and allowed to learn, as most teams do with their good prospects. For example, the Habs allowed both Desharnais and Drouin to struggle for extended periods, the idea was that it was part of the learning process.

I agree he was trending upward and should've been given more opportunity at C, the worst thing to happen for him was Bergevin hiring another defensive dinosaur as head coach who put him back on the wing - even that chain smoking plug Therrien was getting more out of him than Julien.

I just find people hype up the end of 2015-2016 and start of 2016-2017 too much. Galchenyuk obviously has the skill and has shown glimpses of being able to take the next step, but his skating, shot accuracy and the fact he glides instead of continuing to skate when pulling moves are what is holding him back from being more effective whether it is at C or on the wing.

 

[sandysan]

That's true, but Galchenyuk did well in multiple stints at centre.

Moreover, he was drafted to be a centre on a team which needed a centre. He should have just been left at centre for an extended period and allowed to learn, as most teams do with their good prospects. For example, the Habs allowed both Desharnais and Drouin to struggle for extended periods, the idea was that it was part of the learning process.

drouin, deharnais and Galchenyuk. "One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesnt belong"


( psst the answer is Drouin doesnt belong at Center)

 

[Sorinth]

Apparently, our GM thought a skilled player with attitude problems was worth a potential #1 d-man.

I suspect the only thing that Bergevin cared about was that he was a skilled Francophone. What are the odds that we find a GM to trade with whose as incompetent as Bergevin though?

 

[Sorinth]

Yeah not so much. Most players that spoke out are on other teams.

Well he ended up on another team anyway after wasting a bunch of years playing wing. So what exactly was the downside if he spoke out? Because getting moved sooner isn't a bad thing from either Galchenyuk's perspective or a Habs fans perspective.

 

[Doc McKenna]

Well he ended up on another team anyway after wasting a bunch of years playing wing. So what exactly was the downside if he spoke out? Because getting moved sooner isn't a bad thing from either Galchenyuk's perspective or a Habs fans perspective.

This hab fan thinks is was bad, for our club. Maybe he liked the guys he was playing with until MB gutted the team of all of them-you know guys that spoke out.

 

[BadHabit]

I suspect the only thing that Bergevin cared about was that he was a skilled Francophone. What are the odds that we find a GM to trade with whose as incompetent as Bergevin though?

It’s been discussed at length, but the Drouin trade like many before it did not fill a need we had, and now it’s created an even bigger hole.

 

[Sorinth]

What did Galchenyuk get for keeping his mouth shut? He got to play in the NHL. There are many ways for someone in power to mess with a player's career. He could have gotten the Tinordi special by being exiled to the pressbox. Or the Hudon, Scherbak, McCarron purgatory life sentence of playing for Lefebvre. 30 goal scorer and 6 year NHL veteran didn't stop them from playing him as a 4th line LW.

Every single first round pick by this management has officially been mishandled. That's quite the track record.

Was Tinordi exiled because he was being punished or because they didn't think he was good enough to play but didn't want to lose him for nothing?

If Galchenyuk speaks out and they put him in the pressbox he demands a trade. Do you have a single example of a guy who got punished for asking for speaking out or asking for a trade where the team just benched them for a whole year?

The team might have the power to do it, but actually following through would never happen.

 

[Kriss E]

I agree he was trending upward and should've been given more opportunity at C, the worst thing to happen for him was Bergevin hiring another defensive dinosaur as head coach who put him back on the wing - even that chain smoking plug Therrien was getting more out of him than Julien.

I just find people hype up the end of 2015-2016 and start of 2016-2017 too much. Galchenyuk obviously has the skill and has shown glimpses of being able to take the next step, but his skating, shot accuracy and the fact he glides instead of continuing to skate when pulling moves are what is holding him back from being more effective whether it is at C or on the wing.

I feel like this is the "Eller" discussions all over again. One side argues strongly about ''X'' player because they liked what he had shown in a particular position. They feel he should have been a bigger opportunity there, which might have led to an interesting development.
While the other side tries to downplay it to argue he couldn't.

You can put Eller or Galch's name as "Player X", they both would fit the script.
Kept hearing people argue we should put Eller in a top 6 role, he had shown some pretty good promise going from 17pts to 28 to 30 in 46 to hot start off the gate in following year until..we know the rest. But then others were saying exactly what you just said "hyping up his good streaks too much".
In the end, people just wanted us to explore Eller's offensive game more, especially given we knew DD wasn't going to cut it for us, and it's the same thing with Galchenyuk. People wanted us to explore his abilities as a centerman more. He had shown enough promise there to warrant a very long and serious look as a centerman, especially considering we practically had no better option.

If you think people are just doing some hype jobs, you haven't understood their points very well.

 

[Sorinth]

It’s been discussed at length, but the Drouin trade like many before it did not fill a need we had, and now it’s created an even bigger hole.

And? Where did I say it was a good trade?

It seems like unless I throw Drouin under the bus at every opportunity you (And others) assume I'm defending every Bergevin and Drouin have ever done. It's pathetic.

 

[Sorinth]

This hab fan thinks is was bad, for our club. Maybe he liked the guys he was playing with until MB gutted the team of all of them-you know guys that spoke out.

Trading Galchenyuk and having him be a play center and do well is going to hasten Bergevin's firing. The sooner that happens the better. It would've been much better for Galchenyuk to be traded in say 2014, put up 65+ points as a center because it would lead to Bergevin being fired before he could further destroy the team.

 

[BadHabit]

And? Where did I say it was a good trade?

It seems like unless I throw Drouin under the bus at every opportunity you (And others) assume I'm defending every Bergevin and Drouin have ever done. It's pathetic.

Sensitive much? Where did I say you said it was a good trade?

The point of my post was to show that either a) MB made the trade for reasons other than the goal of making the team better, or b) Because he honestly thought it filled a need and would make the team better.

The first reason would show he’s trying to satisfy a certain segment of the fan base, the second would show he’s incompetent.

There was no personal attack in my post. Sorry you interpreted it that way. I was actually agreeing with you.

 

[OldCraig71]

I may get flamed for this, but whatever...

Danault is a BETTER center than Drouin. Not saying he is a better player offensively, but there's no doubt in my mind he's more worthy of the #1C position on our team (sad to say as it is). Drouin is the #1C by circumstance, plain and simple. We gave up our top prospect for a guy expected, not projected, to play as the top center.

Obviously, I don't want Danault as our #1, but he's a lot better than Drouin is at the position.

I also believe Kotkaniemi is going to be a better center than Drouin. He has more of the tools expected from a center, especially a two-way one. I personally think he can reach 1C status, but even if he ends up a quality 3C, he's still likely to be a better center than Drouin.

I think Drouin is incredibly gifted offensively and I was one of those who really wanted him when he was going through all that crap in Tampa. However, I'd like to see him be more free offensively as a winger so that he can do what he does best which is to create offense.

I agree with everything you just said but I want to add something. The only thing holding Jonathan Drouin back is Jonathan Drouin, he has all of the talent in the world but until he puts the work boots on especially at the center position he is a liability to this team. He can be better at center but it wont happen magically, he knows what he needs to do to improve but will he or does he know he doesn't really need to?

He coasted for much of last year and was that a fluke? He came to Montreal with 29 goals in just a little over 160 NHL games with nearly half of those coming on the pp, something is wrong there, he is not producing goals 5 on 5 and is it just bad luck? From what I saw from him last year and what some Tampa fans told us, I don't think so, he has to raise his compete level, he has the talent but he needs to grow up a little, just my two cents.

 

[OnTheRun]

Was Tinordi exiled because he was being punished or because they didn't think he was good enough to play but didn't want to lose him for nothing?

If Galchenyuk speaks out and they put him in the pressbox he demands a trade. Do you have a single example of a guy who got punished for asking for speaking out or asking for a trade where the team just benched them for a whole year?

The team might have the power to do it, but actually following through would never happen.

It was during the Therrien era and Therrien used the pressbox as a punitive measure more often than not. His very first move as a coach was to scratch Eller and the reason given was "On n'a pas l'temps de niaiser." which was totally uncalled for. But that's the thing with Therrien, if he didn't like you, you were doomed from the start.

AG speaking up would probably have ended in a disaster, for both the player and the org, considering the regime "special talent" when it come to torpedoing the value of their own assets.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

I think he'll be great when he's not counted on to be 'the man'. If he can be the 'worst' player on a 2nd line surrounded by some great talent (and most likely on the wing) I think he'll shine. If we can stink up the joint for a couple more years and get some REAL top talent, I'd be excited to see what guys like Drouin, Domi and pretty much the rest of our wingers. We have GREAT complementary guys up front. We just need the top talent. Hell even just competent Centers would be great.

 

[Sorinth]

It was during the Therrien era and Therrien used the pressbox as a punitive measure more often than not. His very first move as a coach was to scratch Eller and the reason given was "On n'a pas l'temps de niaiser." which was totally uncalled for. But that's the thing with Therrien, if he didn't like you, you were doomed from the start.

AG speaking up would probably have ended in a disaster, for both the player and the org, considering the regime "special talent" when it come to torpedoing the value of their own assets.

Did you read the post I responded too? Getting benched for a few games is very different then burying a guy in the minors or in the press box like @Byrson implied would've happened if Galchenyuk had spoken up.

 

[OnTheRun]

Did you read the post I responded too? Getting benched for a few games is very different then burying a guy in the minors or in the press box like @Byrson implied would've happened if Galchenyuk had spoken up.

Yep I did and I'm pretty sure Therrien would have been on in case non-stop if he had spoken up. Michou is all about personal vendetta and "teaching lesson".

At least by staying silent AG got semi-decent ice time on the top6 and the 2nd wave of PP (both are important for a player who had yet to establish himself.) which would not have been the case if he had been on Therrien's shit list in 2013.

 

[groovejuice]

Their contracts were not the same. Drouin's was longer so the cap hit was higher. Galchenyuk is a ufa by the end of it, the 3 years is what kept the deal low. They are not really comparable contracts.

Not really doe

Galchenyuk has had a far superior professional career than has Drouin - I don't believe that can be seriously disputed. Even considering the UFA years, Drouin is currently overpaid for his stats to date, and Galchenyuk underpaid. IMO, of course.

No hardball from Bergevin on Drouin's contract. That's out of character for Bergevin on a "skill" contract.

 

[admiralcadillac]

Galchenyuk has had a far superior professional career than has Drouin - I don't believe that can be seriously disputed. Even considering the UFA years, Drouin is currently overpaid for his stats to date, and Galchenyuk underpaid. IMO, of course.

No hardball from Bergevin on Drouin's contract. That's out of character for Bergevin on a "skill" contract.

Meh I think Drouin's contract is pretty good. I would have given Galchenyuk a similar contract but I don't think he's had an unquestionably better career so far.

 

[Doc McKenna]

Meh I think Drouin's contract is pretty good. I would have given Galchenyuk a similar contract but I don't think he's had an unquestionably better career so far.

Well if we go by the fact that one has played on the 4th line and has still had a 30 goal season while the other has 42 goals in 242 games-for a team starving for goal scoring are we really going to say they are about the same? What about our needs, unless you want to go down the road of posts getting removed, we know the major asset he is. Great PR move but not the right player for our needs.

Chuck most certainly would have matched the play and points of Drouin last year if given the same opportunity. Chuck had more points despite starting on the fourth line and was actually showing better defensive ability-though not hard given I have yet to see Drouin below the hash marks at any normal consistency.

So we trade chuck away for a less skilled winger. Just insane. Dan-O puts up 40 on the top line and this guy is a solid top 6 center, Drouin puts up 45 and we were hoping for more but was a solid year, chuck puts up half a season and still scores 56 in 82 games and 44 in 61 games(again not getting top line position, players or pp time) but yet he isn't better? Last year he had 51 points-again beating drouin in points. He was even giving an effort and captain clueless of the goodship burningbin calls out Galchenyuk time and again even when the coach thinks he could play center half way through the season...see any problem here?

 

[Captain Mountain]

Meh I think Drouin's contract is pretty good. I would have given Galchenyuk a similar contract but I don't think he's had an unquestionably better career so far.

He's tied with having the 78th highest cap hit in the NHL among forwards. Its a 2nd contract. It buys only 3 UFA seasons. For a guy that has hit 20 goals and 50 points once and is ideally a winger. And lets not pretend that he has any value defensively.

His contract isn't terrible, but it definitely isn't good. You don't even need to go that far for a comparison to him either. Max Domi has had a pretty similar career. One got a two year bridge deal. The other is the highest paid forward on the roster.

 

[admiralcadillac]

Well if we go by the fact that one has played on the 4th line and has still had a 30 goal season while the other has 42 goals in 242 games-for a team starving for goal scoring are we really going to say they are about the same? What about our needs, unless you want to go down the road of posts getting removed, we know the major asset he is. Great PR move but not the right player for our needs.

Chuck most certainly would have matched the play and points of Drouin last year if given the same opportunity. Chuck had more points despite starting on the fourth line and was actually showing better defensive ability-though not hard given I have yet to see Drouin below the hash marks at any normal consistency.

So we trade chuck away for a less skilled winger. Just insane. Dan-O puts up 40 on the top line and this guy is a solid top 6 center, Drouin puts up 45 and we were hoping for more but was a solid year, chuck puts up half a season and still scores 56 in 82 games and 44 in 61 games(again not getting top line position, players or pp time) but yet he isn't better? Last year he had 51 points-again beating drouin in points. He was even giving an effort and captain clueless of the goodship burningbin calls out Galchenyuk time and again even when the coach thinks he could play center half way through the season...see any problem here?

I think you're exaggerating the extent to which Galchenyuk was underutilized...

 

[DAChampion]

I think you're exaggerating the extent to which Galchenyuk was underutilized...

How would you describe his utilization?