JOKERIT 2020-2021 (GOING ALL IN?)

[TheWhiskeyThief]

That's still ~1 million euros for each Liiga club NOW.

So the cost-benefit is good either way for them not to play in KHL and got to Liiga for extraordinary reasons. Losing €7mm better than losing €12mm

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

So the cost-benefit is good either way for them not to play in KHL and got to Liiga for extraordinary reasons. Losing €7mm better than losing €12mm

A cost-benefit analysis is a logical decision making process. You need to throw out anything involving logic in this scenario. Jokerit would have never left Liiga if they looked at the logical decision. They would have seen the future and current present: economically non-viability, guaranteed economic losses, but a sizeable increase in quality of hockey. Jokerit joined the KHL because their owner was part Russian with Russian business ownership and ties to Putin. They never did it thinking they would be the only KHL team to not rely almost entirely on subsidies from government-operated corporations to exist on a yearly basis.

Jokerit didn't join the KHL after doing a cost-benefit analysis. They won't leave the KHL after doing a cost-benefit analysis either. If they were to do that, it would have happened some time ago and now won't be the catalyst that forces a decision.

 

[Jussi]

So the cost-benefit is good either way for them not to play in KHL and got to Liiga for extraordinary reasons. Losing €7mm better than losing €12mm

You're missing the point. You think Liiga clubs would be willing to reduce their share at this moment even if it were for one season only? Not happening.

 

[Albatros]

A cost-benefit analysis is a logical decision making process. You need to throw out anything involving logic in this scenario. Jokerit would have never left Liiga if they looked at the logical decision. They would have seen the future and current present: economically non-viability, guaranteed economic losses, but a sizeable increase in quality of hockey.

Actually following that logic they would have terminated their operations, as also in Liiga they had been deep in red accumulating 15-20 million in losses in the 2000s. The Jokerit that left Liiga was a combination of economic losses and poor on-ice product. Economically the KHL has no long-term viability, but let's not unnecessarily romanticize what was before. The organization itself is in many ways in better shape today than it was in 2014.

 

[vorky]

You are forgetting a very important part of the story. Our Finnish friends have told us many times - Hjalis was a big advocate of the pan-European hockey league back in the 1990s when owning Jokerit. His vision was to make a strong European league where Jokerit would participate. He did not see any support from other clubs in Sweden, Germany, Czech rep or so. Since the KHL came to the scene, there has been no alternative. Europeans, without Russians, have neither desire nor money to create something meaningful with more money involved than in the KHL.

Yes, it requires investment by owners. You can not play the pan-European league with €5M budget.

 

[Albatros]

Nornickel is not going to cover the losses ad infinitum, no one is. Enjoy it while it lasts, it's a golden era for Jokerit, but don't imagine it's sustainable.

 

[Jaska]

So the cost-benefit is good either way for them not to play in KHL and got to Liiga for extraordinary reasons. Losing €7mm better than losing €12mm

In KHL the Lost is covered by Russians, but in liiga?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Actually following that logic they would have terminated their operations, as also in Liiga they had been deep in red accumulating 15-20 million in losses in the 2000s. The Jokerit that left Liiga was a combination of economic losses and poor on-ice product. Economically the KHL has no long-term viability, but let's not unnecessarily romanticize what was before. The organization itself is in many ways in better shape today than it was in 2014.

I wouldn't say it is nonviable at all. Their ownership group has been more than willing to cover their 10 million euro annual losses. They clearly made the realization a long time ago that is how operating in the KHL is. If they were going to fold, they would have done it a long time ago. The fact they still are operating in this manner is evidence they can continue operations for a long time rather than it meaning they will have to make changes. They would have made changes by now if they were in a situation where they had to make changes.

 

[Albatros]

The problem for Jokerit is that they rely on external funding from sources whose core business has nothing to do with hockey and relationship with the club is mere coincidence. As such there's never going to be long-term commitment. For Nornickel 10 million per year is peanuts, but even so they only pay as long as the intangibles unrelated to hockey are in favor of it.

 

[Jussi]

Actually following that logic they would have terminated their operations, as also in Liiga they had been deep in red accumulating 15-20 million in losses in the 2000s. The Jokerit that left Liiga was a combination of economic losses and poor on-ice product. Economically the KHL has no long-term viability, but let's not unnecessarily romanticize what was before. The organization itself is in many ways in better shape today than it was in 2014.

Absolutely. If the club were in Liiga with this front office, the chances of success, both on and off the ice, would be much higher.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

You're missing the point. You think Liiga clubs would be willing to reduce their share at this moment even if it were for one season only? Not happening.

I already assumed that they wouldn’t get TV money.

So what is your point?

 

[Jussi]

I already assumed that they wouldn’t get TV money.

So what is your point?

The numbers you listed.

Plus the abbreviation for million is one "m", not two.

 

[Jussi]

Jokerit hoping for a delayed season start: Nähdäänkö Jokerit KHL:ssä ensi kaudella? Jari Kurri kommentoi tukalaa tilannetta

 

[member 305909]

Has there been any estimates how large a proportion of the Jokerit-fans continued to support the team and went to the games just like always before when Jokerit joined the KHL and how large a proportion abandoned the team?

I guess if there was a Western-European hockey-league Finnish fans wouldn't mind their teams joining such a league but joining the KHL is too much for many fans.

 

[Albatros]

The attendance has remained pretty much the same, but definitely there are quite a few Liiga fans that abandoned the team as well as more general hockey fans that have joined and might follow a Liiga team simultaneously. It's a demographic shift away from the suburban profile that Jokerit once had. I don't think there was appetite for another type of European league either among those who left, even if it would have been somewhat better received generally. According to a recent study made by the University of Jyväskylä, of their current fans 40 % would wish to remain in the KHL, 36 % doesn't care either way, and 24 % would prefer to play in Liiga.

 

[Jussi]

There's a poll at the Jatkoaika boards on how fans feel about Jokerit playing in Russia the next season. Right now there's 172 votes for "no" and 29 for "yes", so 85,6% are against Jokerit playing in Russia next season.

 

[Rigafan]

Well Vladimir Potanin (Norilsk Nickel) could basically fund the team on his own, being one of the riches men in Russia and he's close with Mr Putin so I don't think Jokerit have to worry about anything - unless it comes down to the politics of playing in a Russian league, the funding will remain I'm sure.

 

[Jussi]

Well Vladimir Potanin (Norilsk Nickel) could basically fund the team on his own, being one of the riches men in Russia and he's close with Mr Putin so I don't think Jokerit have to worry about anything - unless it comes down to the politics of playing in a Russian league, the funding will remain I'm sure.

That company is having all sorts of other issues right now, causing huge financial hits.

 

[Rigafan]

That company is having all sorts of other issues right now, causing huge financial hits.

Of course, I understand when we look at the company who is funding the operation but when you see the names behind that company, namely Potanin and Abramovich, it wouldn't matter if the company went completely bankrupt. These two men sharing the 'cost' of a hockey team, they wouldn't even notice it on their expenses list!

The KHL, given the currently situation and recent history, needs this strong, high profile teams to survive, especially the foreign ones. Look at Dinamo Riga, if it were down to pure business they wouldn not be in this league, it's not possible is it? But they need to be in the league so they are funded.

 

[Jussi]

Of course, I understand when we look at the company who is funding the operation but when you see the names behind that company, namely Potanin and Abramovich, it wouldn't matter if the company went completely bankrupt. These two men sharing the 'cost' of a hockey team, they wouldn't even notice it on their expenses list!

The KHL, given the currently situation and recent history, needs this strong, high profile teams to survive, especially the foreign ones. Look at Dinamo Riga, if it were down to pure business they wouldn not be in this league, it's not possible is it? But they need to be in the league so they are funded.

From what I've read, Potanin and Abramovich don't get along, like at all. Abramovich doesn't have anything to do with Jokerit, Chelsea is his toy.

 

[member 305909]

It is a bit different thing to advertise a heated "local derby" between Jokerit and Dynamo Riga as it was against HIFK.

However, the way the CHL is received by fans should also be an indication how sustainable a Western European league would be. Games against foreign teams most fans know nothing about and care about even less.

 

[Jussi]

It is a bit different thing to advertise a heated "local derby" between Jokerit and Dynamo Riga as it was against HIFK.

However, the way the CHL is received by fans should also be an indication how sustainable a Western European league would be. Games against foreign teams most fans know nothing about and care about even less.

Attendances have been increasing more and more.

 

[vorky]

It is a bit different thing to advertise a heated "local derby" between Jokerit and Dynamo Riga as it was against HIFK.

However, the way the CHL is received by fans should also be an indication how sustainable a Western European league would be. Games against foreign teams most fans know nothing about and care about even less.

Yes, it is an obvious fact to anybody that CHL attendance has been a disaster in many countries, including Finland.

 

[Jussi]

CHL average attendance rose again last season.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

CHL average attendance rose again last season.

Don't tell that to the KHL mouthpiece. The idea of financially independent European teams in growing and improving domestic leagues goes against the perfect world where a Russian-dominated international league goes from Atlantic to Pacific Oceans.