Tribute John Tavares Discussion Thread

[rielledup]

The more I think about it, I should have included Eichel on my list of him not being better than Tavares.

This past season was the first time in his career that Eichel scored at least 30+ goals and he's only been above 80+ points also one time.

Tavares has 5 seasons of 30+ goals and 4 seasons of 80+ points.

Let's not forget how Tavares had 47 goals and 88 points just last season for the Maple Leafs.

You've done two things that I regularly see people do when comparing players that annoy me.

First, you compared the overall body of work of a young player who is either still getting better or just reached his peak this season to the body of work of a player who has already been in his prime for a long time. Eichel was clearly a much better player this season than he was earlier in his career. Eichel was on pace for 93 points despite playing with garbage all year. Considering he kept getting better up until this season and the fact that he played withgarbage this year I see no reason to believe he wont be a 90+ player or even better moving forward.

Second, you didn't take into account games played. Do you seriously not consider this season a season where he would've easily had over 80 points?

I'd take Eichel over JT without hesitation, especially considering age and skating ability.

 

[meefer]

Dont think Nylander would get enough ice time as a 3C. I also dont think Kap is a good fit in the top 6. Pretty brutal tunnel vision and doesnt use his linemates well.

As soon as JT was signed the leafs doubled down on stacking the top 6 and giving them the lions share of toi

Matthews line 19-21/
Tavares line 18-20/
Nylander line 14-15/
leaving 4-9 min/

Of course the variables, PP and PK, Nylander off the ice 5 min/ if moved to 3rd, but playing against 3rd line comp. I think a lot would depend on how Mikheyev looks when he hits the ice, and Robertson (or if Johnsson is able to play). In essence: is a dominant line (Matthews), a very good line (Tavares) and a potentially dangerous line (Nylander) a better option than the two lines we know, plus a less dangerous 3rd and 4th. It's an interesting consideration and will be fun to see how it plays out.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Matthews line 19-21/
Tavares line 18-20/
Nylander line 14-15/
leaving 4-9 min/

Of course the variables, PP and PK, Nylander off the ice 5 min/ if moved to 3rd, but playing against 3rd line comp. I think a lot would depend on how Mikheyev looks when he hits the ice, and Robertson (or if Johnsson is able to play). In essence: is a dominant line (Matthews), a very good line (Tavares) and a potentially dangerous line (Nylander) a better option than the two lines we know, plus a less dangerous 3rd and 4th. It's an interesting consideration and will be fun to see how it plays out.

I understand why people think about putting Nylander at 3C. However I'd rather put Mitch/Nylander with Matthews/JT and just play the top 6 like crazy. Matthews and JT make close to like 30% of the cap alone and their lines need to play as much as possible. It is how the team is designed. Especially with Marner making another like 11 million dollars.

Also I dont like Kap with either JT or Matthews at the expense of Nylander who is much more suited for a top 6 role/linemates.

 

[meefer]

You've done two things that I regularly see people do when comparing players that annoy me.

First, you compared the overall body of work of a young player who is either still getting better or just reached his peak this season to the body of work of a player who has already been in his prime for a long time. Eichel was clearly a much better player this season than he was earlier in his career. Eichel was on pace for 93 points despite playing with garbage all year. Considering he kept getting better up until this season and the fact that he played withgarbage this year I see no reason to believe he wont be a 90+ player or even better moving forward.

Second, you didn't take into account games played. Do you seriously not consider this season a season where he would've easily had over 80 points?

I'd take Eichel over JT without hesitation, especially considering age and skating ability.

You're arguments are persuasive. My only hesitation would be who is the better candidate for the Leafs in this year's playoffs? Talent wise, and moving forward, I agree with you. Leadership, commitment, experience...the dreaded word 'intangibles' raises it's ugly head...and I'm less sure. I'm a big JT fan, but that Eichel kid is one heck of a player. Unfortunately, he's at times left me wanting because of ill timed, or ill expressed statements. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it.

 

[zeke]

As soon as JT was signed the leafs doubled down on stacking the top 6 and giving them the lions share of toi

3rd liners' points Paces:

WSH: 46, 46, 35
TOR: 43, 40, 35
COL: 41, 39, 38
TBL: 40, 39, 35
STL: 42, 36, 33
BOS: 36, 36, 27

 

[meefer]

I understand why people think about putting Nylander at 3C. However I'd rather put Mitch/Nylander with Matthews/JT and just play the top 6 like crazy. Matthews and JT make close to like 30% of the cap alone and their lines need to play as much as possible. It is how the team is designed. Especially with Marner making another like 11 million dollars.

Also I dont like Kap with either JT or Matthews at the expense of Nylander who is much more suited for a top 6 role/linemates.

Yes, it is how the team is designed. But, I'd view flexibility as a benefit and if the team were to show more overall success using something, anything, that brought that success than I'd accept the change and be thankful.

 

[meefer]

3rd liners' points Paces:

WSH: 46, 46, 35
TOR: 43, 40, 35
COL: 41, 39, 38
TBL: 40, 39, 35
STL: 42, 36, 33
BOS: 36, 36, 27

I take it those are arranged LW/C/RW? Who might our players be?

 

[zeke]

I take it those are arranged LW/C/RW? Who might our players be?

No from highest to least.

Our 3 there are kappy, johnsson, kerfoot.

 

[meefer]

No from highest to least.

Our 3 there are kappy, johnsson, kerfoot.

Making the return of Johnsson a more tasty desire. I didn't know he was projecting that well.

 

[zeke]

No from highest to least.

Our 3 there are kappy, johnsson, kerfoot.

I guess I should also add that spezza is also on a 35pt pace. And with engvall at 26 and clifford at 20 that's likely one of the most productive set of 4th liners in the league too.

 

[zeke]

Making the return of Johnsson a more tasty desire. I didn't know he was projecting that well.

Lotta good things on this team that leafs nation hasn't noticed tbh.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

3rd liners' points Paces:

WSH: 46, 46, 35
TOR: 43, 40, 35
COL: 41, 39, 38
TBL: 40, 39, 35
STL: 42, 36, 33
BOS: 36, 36, 27

If you look at the leafs top 6 staples as an indication of line time and QoC/Qot it seems they are already stacking the top 6 and giving them a ton of atoi.

Im not sure why 3rd liner points has anything to do with this, especially comparing them to other teams 3rd liners.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Yes, it is how the team is designed. But, I'd view flexibility as a benefit and if the team were to show more overall success using something, anything, that brought that success than I'd accept the change and be thankful.

Of course I too would accept it and be happy if the leafs played really well. I just dont see that happening with kap playing in the top 6 in place of Nylander on the 3rd line essentially

 

[zeke]

If you look at the leafs top 6 staples as an indication of line time and QoC/Qot it seems they are already stacking the top 6 and giving them a ton of atoi.

Im not sure why 3rd liner points has anything to do with this, especially comparing them to other teams 3rd liners.

I felt your post was insinuating that the leafs lack forward depth as a result of adding tavares.

So I pointed out that they have some of the best forward depth in hockey.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

I felt your post was insinuating that the leafs lack forward depth as a result of adding tavares.

So I pointed out that they have some of the best forward depth in hockey.

That is a far reach to be honest. By adding a 2nd very talented and highly paid center in JT it obviously makes sense to stack and play the top 6 a ton. Me thinks you have some preconceived notions.


Edit: because I cant help myself:

Leafs do have amazing forward depth, one of the best in the league. I would also expect them to as they also spend more on their forwards than every team in the league but Nashville from what I can tell.


% of cap spent on forwards:
WSH: 62.2%
TOR: 65.4%
COL: 39.3%
TBL: 64.1%
STL: 53.2%
BOS: 50.4%

 

[meefer]

Of course I too would accept it and be happy if the leafs played really well. I just dont see that happening with kap playing in the top 6 in place of Nylander on the 3rd line essentially

Fair enough. I'd proposed Robertson and Mikheyev with Tavares, and Kap would have saddled up beside WN and either Johnsson/Engvall. Regardless, I'll step back and watch Keefe, I think he's got a much better handle on how to maximize the Leaf's strengths than did Babcock. Heck, Keefe may know even better than me how to get the best out of this team

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Fair enough. I'd proposed Robertson and Mikheyev with Tavares, and Kap would have saddled up beside WN and either Johnsson/Engvall. Regardless, I'll step back and watch Keefe, I think he's got a much better handle on how to maximize the Leaf's strengths than did Babcock. Heck, Keefe may know even better than me how to get the best out of this team

Was this for next year? I didnt see the timeframe. I havent seen enough of Robertson to know if he can make the leap straight from the OHL to a top 6 role in the NHL. Marner didnt even do that to be fair.

Ya Keefe's definitely better at getting more out of the lineup, his willingness to try new things or change things up when they arent working is reason enough.

Nah Keefe knows nothing compared to us HfBoard pros haha

 

[zeke]

That is a far reach to be honest. By adding a 2nd very talented and highly paid center in JT it obviously makes sense to stack and play the top 6 a ton. Me thinks you have some preconceived notions.

"doubled down" just sounded to me like you were saying they had no other options but to stack a top 6....and that just didn't sound right to me given our great forward depth.

Edit: because I cant help myself:

Leafs do have amazing forward depth, one of the best in the league. I would also expect them to as they also spend more on their forwards than every team in the league but Nashville from what I can tell.


% of cap spent on forwards:
WSH: 62.2%
TOR: 65.4%
COL: 39.3%
TBL: 64.1%
STL: 53.2%
BOS: 50.4%

Looks like they're in good company there tbh.

Though the Leafs aren't spending very much on bottom 6 forwards even then.

 

[PromisedLand]

An interesting idea. I'd be curious to see how Keefe manages for TOI. I'd tweak a little bit...
Hyman-Matthews-Marner (we know what we have here, and it's pretty good)
Robertson-Tavares-Mykheyev (Robertson being fed by Tavares, imo, is better than Nylander doing it...but 2nd vs 3rd line competition?...a toss up)
Johnsson/Engvall-Nylander-Kapanen (Nylander's dzone exits augmented by the threat of Kapanen, hmmm, both E and J {when healthy} can keep up)
Clifford-Kerfoot-Spezza (a wee bit of everything here)

FWIW, I expect JT to be a bull when this starts up again. If Matthews draws Dubois (and Jones-Werenski), Jenner (and Gavrikov-Savard) is going to have his hands full going toe to toe with Captain Serious. If Mykheyev can be close to what he was: hard on the puck, strong skating, defensively sound, he'll be JTs Hyman, allowing JT to do JT things with Robertson needing to find open ice or pressure the front of the net to keep the Jacket's D honest. I can see Columbus taking a few hooking/holding/tripping penalties trying to contain Tavares.

Dont think Nylander would get enough ice time as a 3C. I also dont think Kap is a good fit in the top 6. Pretty brutal tunnel vision and doesnt use his linemates well.

As soon as JT was signed the leafs doubled down on stacking the top 6 and giving them the lions share of toi

There is some evidence from sports science that shows strong correlation b/w TOI and injuries/fatigue later in the season.

If we are not trailing in the game, I think limiting minutes to keep players fresher would pay dividends.

Also to have a 3 line attack creates match up problems for opposition; assuming Willy reaches his full potential as a dangerous high scoring center then opposition would be hard pressed to figure out which line they want to put their top 4D against?

We can always stack the lines if are playing from behind, on those nights AM,MM,JT,WN can have larger share of the ice time and it would make sense.

Also against CBJ or any other playoff opponent, history has shown, playoff success depends on depth scoring; so if we can spread out offense that would help.

My only concern is the freakin' D; hopefully it shows up

 

[meefer]

Was this for next year? I didnt see the timeframe. I havent seen enough of Robertson to know if he can make the leap straight from the OHL to a top 6 role in the NHL. Marner didnt even do that to be fair.

Ya Keefe's definitely better at getting more out of the lineup, his willingness to try new things or change things up when they arent working is reason enough.

Nah Keefe knows nothing compared to us HfBoard pros haha

Honestly, I've not seen him at all. I'm basing my comments solely on what I've read and heard, and the odd video. Combined, that info suggests he's a heck of a talent, hard working and, most importantly, possesses a tremendous ability to shoot the puck into the net. Does that mean he's ready for the show? Heck no. But, I'd be looking at him with greedy eyes as they start to ramp things up. If he shows well, I think playing him with Tavares (and my choice, Mykheyev) makes sense. Tavares, with his stoic demeanor, his experience, and his abilities on the ice would be the protection that I'd think Robertson might need. Regardless, it's all supposition at this point. The kid projects well, does he make it this year, ehhhhh, I'll call it 50/50, maybe 60/40 he does, at least for the first game. What he does with that will determine the rest.

 

[LeafsNation75]

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[Racer88]

Lotta good things on this team that leafs nation hasn't noticed tbh.

You are probably right but they have been over shadowed by the inability of Marner and Matthews to get the job done

 

[Mugzy97]

Very good news

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Should be interesting to see what line mates he gets this year. Might be in Keefers best interest to mix up the top 6 instead of set lines.
Tavares not getting injured in the Habs series could have been the difference maker. The guy is a heavy net front pressure in playoffs going back a long time. Them hands in close are deadly too like always. We missed him without a doubt. I think he will get bunting and Willy as his wingers but there is nothing that says Matthews and Tavares need set lines.
I’m not so sure i though the set lines were very effective to any kind of advantage in hindsight.