Confirmed with Link: John Chayka named Arizona Coyotes GM

[WrinkledPossum]

What's funny is how people fail to learn from history. Go learn from the mistake the Eagles franchise made with Chip Kelly and in the roster decisions that cost them many many good players including trading their franchise QB for a QB that is still to this day 1 step away from being a bust.

Someone with common sense knows that you don't perform the same or a similar experiment again expecting a different result.

The thing with history is there is so much that you can cherry pick what you want to suit your agenda. Coach having full control in Philly didn't work but it has in New England.

But the thing with the Coyotes is Tippett isn't GM. Neither case applies. The NFL teams that I think apply more to the Coyotes situation is Arizona and Seattle. Where the GM and coach work closely together on personnel decisions. They also get along quite well and have respect for each other. Which is why it works. And with how Tippett and Chayka have talked about each other I think that is the most likely scenario to play out here.

 

[Grimes]

Good read:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/coyotes-john-chayka-nhls-answer-mark-zuckerberg/

 

[WrinkledPossum]

Good read:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/coyotes-john-chayka-nhls-answer-mark-zuckerberg/

Really good, and in the interview Chayka talks about how their relationship will be just like how I thought it would be. They work together to make decisions. And he explained it quite well, where in a partnership you don't do something that the other person doesn't support.

It also doesn't sound like he wants to trade young players. If anything I don't expect there to be that many moves that Maloney wouldn't have made.

 

[Grimes]

Really good, and in the interview Chayka talks about how their relationship will be just like how I thought it would be. They work together to make decisions. And he explained it quite well, where in a partnership you don't do something that the other person doesn't support.

It also doesn't sound like he wants to trade young players. If anything I don't expect there to be that many moves that Maloney wouldn't have made.

I'm gathering this too.

Time will tell but I feel like we are in good hands. I just hope everyone is on board with the longer road rather than trying to compete for the cup in the next two seasons.

 

[Jakey53]

I'm gathering this too.

Time will tell but I feel like we are in good hands. I just hope everyone is on board with the longer road rather than trying to compete for the cup in the next two seasons.

Most on this board are impatient, and that's the problem. They want the kids to play, and play major minutes from the first game of the year, play on every PP, and want success. Doesn't work that way. Rebuilding is painful and takes time, and even then success is not certain.

 

[Plub]

So listening to him, it is DT that makes the decisions. How is that a positive? That's what my biggest fear was that this dinosaur would be making the final decision on moves we make.

For those who don't feel like watching. He said he'll do the grunt work, then take it to DT for his approval, if he doesn't see a fit on his team from his point of view (DT's) then they won't do it.

 

[Plub]

Most on this board are impatient, and that's the problem. They want the kids to play, and play major minutes from the first game of the year, play on every PP, and want success. Doesn't work that way. Rebuilding is painful and takes time, and even then success is not certain.

It seemed to work that way. We put two rookies in and they were our best most talented forwards and our team made a considerable step forward as a team. I know in Jakey's world I guess last year didn't happen or was due to our sub-par veterans?

I'm not saying we need to put all the rookies in at once, but your denial of why our team wasn't as big of a joke last year as the previous year because it directly contradicts what you're trying to say in every thread is kind of funny.

 

[XX]

And he explained it quite well, where in a partnership you don't do something that the other person doesn't support.

It's telling that the 'it's not so bad' crowd doesn't understand just how dysfunctional this is in a professional setting. Lack of experience I suppose. From the video, Chayka said that Tippett is the ultimate decider. Nothing happens unless he signs off on it (and ownership too, apparently, which is weird). He is the GM, not Chayka.

Chayka is a glorified scout that brings a list of options to Tippett. That's it. It's exactly as feared, and exactly what you would expect from IA.

 

[Matias Maccete]

It's telling that the 'it's not so bad' crowd doesn't understand just how dysfunctional this is in a professional setting. Lack of experience I suppose. From the video, Chayka said that Tippett is the ultimate decider. Nothing happens unless he signs off on it (and ownership too, apparently, which is weird). He is the GM, not Chayka.

Chayka is a glorified scout that brings a list of options to Tippett. That's it. It's exactly as feared, and exactly what you would expect from IA.

Hey hey hey they're collaborating innovatively with great communication.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

Most on this board are impatient, and that's the problem. They want the kids to play, and play major minutes from the first game of the year, play on every PP, and want success. Doesn't work that way. Rebuilding is painful and takes time, and even then success is not certain.

Yes and then get mad when the young players don't get the team into the playoffs and scream for everyone to be fired.

It's telling that the 'it's not so bad' crowd doesn't understand just how dysfunctional this is in a professional setting. Lack of experience I suppose. From the video, Chayka said that Tippett is the ultimate decider. Nothing happens unless he signs off on it (and ownership too, apparently, which is weird). He is the GM, not Chayka.

Chayka is a glorified scout that brings a list of options to Tippett. That's it. It's exactly as feared, and exactly what you would expect from IA.

It really isn't dysfunctional. That style of decision making is common in businesses. And it is becoming more popular. Yes on paper Tippett does have more power but when models like this are used the relationship between workers is based on respect. When they work Chayka won't be calling Tippett sir, boss, etc. They'll work as equals. Tippett won't view Chayka as his inferior, instead as someone who provides a different POV to help make correct decisions.

He did say if he wants to make a move Tipp doesn't, it won't happen. The same would be true if Tipp wanted a player, Chayka said no. He would show him his fancy stats and Tipp would understand the concern. That's how decisions are made when an organization moves from an autocratic style which sounded like was the dominant style when Maloney was around.

And no it isn't weird for the owners to sign off on moves, it's very common. It's more a pointless formality for most moves. But if C/T wanted to make a big move, like one of those OEL for Matthews scenarios they would become closely involved. Or they want to sign a player to a massive contract. It is the owners money they are working with.

 

[XX]

It really isn't dysfunctional. That style of decision making is common in businesses. And it is becoming more popular. Yes on paper Tippett does have more power but when models like this are used the relationship between workers is based on respect. When they work Chayka won't be calling Tippett sir, boss, etc. They'll work as equals. Tippett won't view Chayka as his inferior, instead as someone who provides a different POV to help make correct decisions.

This is so idyllic that I want to frame it.

It just doesn't work out that way in the real world. Even if we follow your ideal example to the absolute letter, there will only ever be decisions made that are from a consensus (yeah, right). That leaves you blind on both flanks, where Chayka may have the correct view but because it is something Tippett opposes - like pretty much any scenario where the roster is weakened in the name of long term stability - it will never happen. The Yandle trade doesn't happen under this crap, pure and simple. Even though Yandle was wishy-washy about signing an extension, and Don made the correct call by cashing him in, it would have never happened under DTJC.

It takes people on equal footing in real terms to even attempt this, when Chayka is clearly outnumbered and also outclassed, thanks to his inexperience and age. You're buying into the window dressing hard. Nothing this organization or ownership group has ever done has given myself or many others here the impression that the Coyotes are going to be the ones to buck the trend of this sort of thing failing.

You're right that it's not entirely dysfunctional, because DT will largely be in charge and have the final say in everything. IA is framing it wrong. It's just that DT is a suboptimal choice for a rebuilding franchise. Given his penchant for whining and impatience, he's also the odds on favorite to **** it all up, because the stance required is opposite to his demonstrated behavior to date.

 

[Jakey53]

It seemed to work that way. We put two rookies in and they were our best most talented forwards and our team made a considerable step forward as a team. I know in Jakey's world I guess last year didn't happen or was due to our sub-par veterans?

I'm not saying we need to put all the rookies in at once, but your denial of why our team wasn't as big of a joke last year as the previous year because it directly contradicts what you're trying to say in every thread is kind of funny.

[MOD]Those two rookies were not the only reason the team improved last year. You can add Martinook, Reider and Domingue to that group. OEL has a strong year, as did Doan, and after a slow start both Murphy and Stone played very well. Even Vermette who was terrible for most of the year finally got it together and ended up with more points than Reider. And of course there was our superb coaching. Overall it was a fantastic year and loved watching the team play. This coming year with the addition of Strome and one or two other kids plus a free agent or two we should be in for another fun year. I don't see us making the playoffs, but you never know.

 

[CC96]

The whole DT has power over his three immediate superiors in the chain of command (AGM: whoever he'll pick, GM: Chayka, Pres. of Operations: Drummond), has to be one of the single most dysfunctional power structures I've ever seen in professional sports. I have zero confidence it will work out well.

The inmate is literally running the asylum.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

This is just speculation and trying to inject opinion as fact.

What parts do you see as that?
"That style of decision making is common in businesses. And it is becoming more popular." That is fact. What the Coyotes are moving to is not new, go study how organizations are structured/changing.
I did also speculate based on that, I based my speculation on interviews, history of other teams, and other businesses. Some of that all comes together. Like in Chaykas interview where he talked about working with a partner before.

This is so idyllic that I want to frame it.

It just doesn't work out that way in the real world. Even if we follow your ideal example to the absolute letter, there will only ever be decisions made that are from a consensus (yeah, right). That leaves you blind on both flanks, where Chayka may have the correct view but because it is something Tippett opposes - like pretty much any scenario where the roster is weakened in the name of long term stability - it will never happen. The Yandle trade doesn't happen under this crap, pure and simple. Even though Yandle was wishy-washy about signing an extension, and Don made the correct call by cashing him in, it would have never happened under DTJC.

It takes people on equal footing in real terms to even attempt this, when Chayka is clearly outnumbered and also outclassed, thanks to his inexperience and age. You're buying into the window dressing hard. Nothing this organization or ownership group has ever done has given myself or many others here the impression that the Coyotes are going to be the ones to buck the trend of this sort of thing failing.

You're right that it's not entirely dysfunctional, because DT will largely be in charge and have the final say in everything. IA is framing it wrong. It's just that DT is a suboptimal choice for a rebuilding franchise. Given his penchant for whining and impatience, he's also the odds on favorite to **** it all up, because the stance required is opposite to his demonstrated behavior to date.

It does work that way in the real world. Chayka talked about it himself. Look at other teams like the Cardinals, Seahawks.

Obviously there are some moves where both won't be 100% on board. But the main point is with both making moves together, both having respect for each others views I don't see any boneheaded moves being made with this setup. That is why organizations choose to have this system for decision making, it's #1 Pro is to prevent dumb decisions.

Now don't get me wrong there still will be some mistakes made, every team makes them. I'm not foolish to think everything they do will be perfect. But I think it is a bit silly to go and be completely pessimistic and think the team is ruined. Which seems to be a popular belief, and anything to the contrary gets mockingly called "idyllic"

 

[Mosby]

Friedman believes we will re-approach Jackson for some sort of AGM role.

 

[Plub]

[MOD]Those two rookies were not the only reason the team improved last year. You can add Martinook, Reider and Domingue to that group. OEL has a strong year, as did Doan, and after a slow start both Murphy and Stone played very well. Even Vermette who was terrible for most of the year finally got it together and ended up with more points than Reider. And of course there was our superb coaching. Overall it was a fantastic year and loved watching the team play. This coming year with the addition of Strome and one or two other kids plus a free agent or two we should be in for another fun year. I don't see us making the playoffs, but you never know.

They were the biggest reason and all those players you mentioned benefited from it. You can just look up interviews of the veterans talking about how easy those two make it for them. Domi set up Doan for multiple goals where he didn't really have to do anything. That was pretty much never the case prior to this year. He scored hard fought goals. Things are a lot more fun when you can get some easy goals thanks to the skill around you.

<mod> DT is a mediocre coach and every statistic backs it up as well as watching him get out-coached regularly. That superb coach has been to the WCF one time. He has only gotten past the first round one time. He's missed the playoffs for how many years now? He's a dinosaur.

 

[Jakey53]

What parts do you see as that?
"That style of decision making is common in businesses. And it is becoming more popular." That is fact. What the Coyotes are moving to is not new, go study how organizations are structured/changing.
I did also speculate based on that, I based my speculation on interviews, history of other teams, and other businesses. Some of that all comes together. Like in Chaykas interview where he talked about working with a partner before.


It does work that way in the real world. Chayka talked about it himself. Look at other teams like the Cardinals, Seahawks.

Obviously there are some moves where both won't be 100% on board. But the main point is with both making moves together, both having respect for each others views I don't see any boneheaded moves being made with this setup. That is why organizations choose to have this system for decision making, it's #1 Pro is to prevent dumb decisions.

Now don't get me wrong there still will be some mistakes made, every team makes them. I'm not foolish to think everything they do will be perfect. But I think it is a bit silly to go and be completely pessimistic and think the team is ruined. Which seems to be a popular belief, and anything to the contrary gets mockingly called "idyllic"

The pessimism on this board blows my mind. Chayka, DT and the rest of the FO haven't even finished the hiring but are getting flamed and are being called dysfunctional. How to you call something dysfunctional when nothing has been done?
<mod>

 

[WrinkledPossum]

They were the biggest reason and all those players you mentioned benefited from it. You can just look up interviews of the veterans talking about how easy those two make it for them. Domi set up Doan for multiple goals where he didn't really have to do anything. That was pretty much never the case prior to this year. He scored hard fought goals. Things are a lot more fun when you can get some easy goals thanks to the skill around you.

And to me, you're essentially trolling at this point with your "superb" coaching and "great" coaching comments. DT is a mediocre coach and every statistic backs it up as well as watching him get out-coached regularly. That superb coach has been to the WCF one time. He has only gotten past the first round one time. He's missed the playoffs for how many years now? He's a dinosaur.

To say Tippett is bad just because he hasn't made the playoffs for a few years is a very weak argument.

Look at the the teams he has had to work with. The team has for all but one year exceeded pre season expectations. The one year where they didn't was the year of the tank, which doesn't reflect on him. Just like the Leafs last place finish didn't reflect on Babcock.

The 2 years before the tank the team barely missed the playoffs with a starting goalie injured one year and a top center who checked out the next.

 

[XX]

It does work that way in the real world. Chayka talked about it himself. Look at other teams like the Cardinals, Seahawks.

Obviously there are some moves where both won't be 100% on board. But the main point is with both making moves together, both having respect for each others views I don't see any boneheaded moves being made with this setup. That is why organizations choose to have this system for decision making, it's #1 Pro is to prevent dumb decisions.

The Cardinals keep being brought up, because you're buying what IA is peddling. The Cardinals don't actually operate like IA says they do. Keim and Arians both stay in their lanes. Keim doesn't live in Arians' lane and only jump when Arians asks him to. The comparison is insulting.

Chayka is not going to be able to stand up to both Tippett and Drummond. He's #3 on the totem pole. This has never worked, and never will work. Not to mention the conflicting ideologies floating around. Say what you want about the Leafs braintrust, but they're all on the same page. Babcock can swallow his pride and deal with a rebuilding team because he a.) signed up for it and b.) is getting paid $8m a year. Between Lou, Shanny, and Dubas, you've got a cutthroat group that has rebuilt wonderfully. Compare that to the circus in AZ. Let the rebuilder go because he wouldn't placate his idiot coach enough.

This group would have attempted to trade 3 without having a center in the system. That's as boneheaded as moves come. It's pretty laughable to suggest entirely new behavior when the previous behavior was reinforced to the tune of double the money and formal titles to enshrine it. Oh, yeah, they also fired the one guy actually doing his job and standing in the way of complete mediocrity.

 

[Jakey53]

The Cardinals keep being brought up, because you're buying what IA is peddling. The Cardinals don't actually operate like IA says they do. Keim and Arians both stay in their lanes. Keim doesn't live in Arians' lane and only jump when Arians asks him to. The comparison is insulting.

Chayka is not going to be able to stand up to both Tippett and Drummond. He's #3 on the totem pole. This has never worked, and never will work. Not to mention the conflicting ideologies floating around. Say what you want about the Leafs braintrust, but they're all on the same page. Babcock can swallow his pride and deal with a rebuilding team because he a.) signed up for it and b.) is getting paid $8m a year. Between Lou, Shanny, and Dubas, you've got a cutthroat group that has rebuilt wonderfully. Compare that to the circus in AZ. Let the rebuilder go because he wouldn't placate his idiot coach enough.

This group would have attempted to trade 3 without having a center in the system. That's as boneheaded as moves come. It's pretty laughable to suggest entirely new behavior when the previous behavior was reinforced to the tune of double the money and formal titles to enshrine it. Oh, yeah, they also fired the one guy actually doing his job and standing in the way of complete mediocrity.

This could backfire, but it could also be a stroke of genius. To throw insults at everyone because they didn't do it YOUR way is ridiculous. Why not wait for a season and see what happens?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

To say Tippett is bad just because he hasn't made the playoffs for a few years is a very weak argument.

I'd have to agree with this because it's hard to blame Tippett too much when we have Mike Smith as our starting goaltender.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

The Cardinals keep being brought up, because you're buying what IA is peddling. The Cardinals don't actually operate like IA says they do. Keim and Arians both stay in their lanes. Keim doesn't live in Arians' lane and only jump when Arians asks him to. The comparison is insulting.

Chayka is not going to be able to stand up to both Tippett and Drummond. He's #3 on the totem pole. This has never worked, and never will work. Not to mention the conflicting ideologies floating around. Say what you want about the Leafs braintrust, but they're all on the same page. Babcock can swallow his pride and deal with a rebuilding team because he a.) signed up for it and b.) is getting paid $8m a year. Between Lou, Shanny, and Dubas, you've got a cutthroat group that has rebuilt wonderfully. Compare that to the circus in AZ. Let the rebuilder go because he wouldn't placate his idiot coach enough.

This group would have attempted to trade 3 without having a center in the system. That's as boneheaded as moves come. It's pretty laughable to suggest entirely new behavior when the previous behavior was reinforced to the tune of double the money and formal titles to enshrine it. Oh, yeah, they also fired the one guy actually doing his job and standing in the way of complete mediocrity.

Well then ignore the Cards and look at the more successful Seahawks. Pete Carroll and John Schnieder share the same vision and work together. If the two people get along it works. That's key. Currently it sounds like Chayka and Tipp do get along very well.

It isn't about standing up and someone having more power than the other. That's not how they're trying to operate. It isn't about being louder, it's about sharing knowledge. Huge difference which many people don't seem to understand. Maybe because it is a new way that businesses operate and people are scared/don't know about it.

Funny how you include Dubas as being cutthroat when you claim Chayka is gonna get walked over...


Was it actually reported that Tippett wanted Hamilton for the #3? I just remember seeing that Boston wanted that pick and Tipp+ really wanted Hamilton. They could have thought GMDM could've made an offer w/o the 3 that would have been better than Calgary's offer. (Which I do believe) We did have another first, a high second, and another first this year.

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

I never saw Pete Carroll request for a player to be signed to the team or have the final say in GM decisions. The better comparison to make is Gretzky with the Coyotes.

 

[XX]

Well then ignore the Cards and look at the more successful Seahawks. Pete Carroll and John Schnieder share the same vision and work together. If the two people get along it works. That's key. Currently it sounds like Chayka and Tipp do get along very well.

You continue to ignore that the 'page' Tippett is reading off of runs contrary to what a budget hockey team in Arizona needs to follow in order to survive. So, I'd rather they not be on the same page. I prefer the GM understand that a long term approach to this entire situation is the only way to approach things. Sadly, even if Chayka was aware of that and fully supported it, he'd be overruled.

Being on the same page straight up doesn't matter if your plan is stupid. I'm sure a lot of front office groups that went down in flames and set back their teams years were on the same page. That's actually a good chunk of the problem.

Collaboration is great. All hail collaboration. Please do not critically examine who is doing the collaborating, or the power structure underneath it all. Collaboration will free us all. Futuuuuuure.

Maybe because it is a new way that businesses operate and people are scared/don't know about it.

Yeah, you've got the one true take. Everyone else is just scurred.

 

[lanky]

This group would have attempted to trade 3 without having a center in the system.

Is this fact?

Boston asked DM for #3 in a swap for Hamilton. DM said no, Tip disagreed. Is that the story? If true then you're right, Tip is a bonehead.