Confirmed with Link: John Chayka named Arizona Coyotes GM

WrinkledPossum

Play Dead
Apr 23, 2016
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You missed the point and I'm not surprised. But please do try again.

No pretty sure I got what you're saying. But from your comments you seem to think the job expectations are the same for the GM and coach.

The ownership thought Maloney could've done more. He had the resources to build a better roster, which is a GMs job. While I still don't like his firing. I wish he was still part of the org. (President w/ Chayka as GM?) I understand how he didn't meet expectations.

While with the resources Tippett had, he overachieved. Roster picked to battle for last and overachieved, which has been a common thing with this team.
 

TheLegend

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Aug 30, 2009
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No pretty sure I got what you're saying. But from your comments you seem to think the job expectations are the same for the GM and coach.

The ownership thought Maloney could've done more. He had the resources to build a better roster, which is a GMs job. While I still don't like his firing. I wish he was still part of the org. (President w/ Chayka as GM?) I understand how he didn't meet expectations.

While with the resources Tippett had, he overachieved. Roster picked to battle for last and overachieved, which has been a common thing with this team.

If you choose to believe Anthony LeBlanc he had the resources. But the Coyotes were still near the bottom in actual spending. And IA really hasn't proven to anyone yet that they have all this money to spend. Even with Tippett's recent bump in pay.
 

XX

Waiting for Ishbia
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The ownership thought Maloney could've done more. He had the resources to build a better roster, which is a GMs job. While I still don't like his firing. I wish he was still part of the org. (President w/ Chayka as GM?) I understand how he didn't meet expectations.

Maloney met every expectation and then some. With minimal resources. People need to understand that when IA says "there was money available" that, not only does it ignore players not wanting to come here, the additional money could be 500k and that statement is still technically true. IA are a bunch of shysters that want you to believe that the team would have been so much better, if only that useless hack Don Maloney hadn't been in charge.

Rebuilding teams can't trade away picks and prospects, so what did you expect Maloney to do?
 

WrinkledPossum

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Apr 23, 2016
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If you choose to believe Anthony LeBlanc he had the resources. But the Coyotes were still near the bottom in actual spending. And IA really hasn't proven to anyone yet that they have all this money to spend. Even with Tippett's recent bump in pay.

What reason is there not to believe him? While like I said before I wish he was still with the team, I understand why the team made the move. And understanding does not mean agreeing.
 

TheLegend

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What reason is there not to believe him? While like I said before I wish he was still with the team, I understand why the team made the move. And understanding does not mean agreeing.

Here's one big reason. Eight months worth of telling the fanbase "we'll have an announcement on the arena in the next couple of weeks" for starters.

At the press conference he made another dig at Glendale saying the new AEG contract is costing them $1 million more per year than the current agreement. That isn't even close to being correct and he knows it, but he's counting on the average Joe hockey fan not digging into the actual facts.

Like you I get the reason for turning Maloney loose. Whether your way ends up being right or wrong, it will never work unless everyone is on board. I would not be surprised if Maloney knew for months this was coming..
 

SniperHF

Rejecting Reports
Mar 9, 2007
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Agreed - the Don seemed a little subdued and much less animated than he usually is at thst open house deal near the end of the season.

I don't doubt he knew what was coming.

You could also go back to his frank statements on tanking back in February along those same lines. Didn't bother playing the PR game anymore.
 

Bonsai Tree

Turning a new leaf
Feb 2, 2014
9,260
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Maloney met every expectation and then some. With minimal resources. People need to understand that when IA says "there was money available" that, not only does it ignore players not wanting to come here, the additional money could be 500k and that statement is still technically true. IA are a bunch of shysters that want you to believe that the team would have been so much better, if only that useless hack Don Maloney hadn't been in charge.

Rebuilding teams can't trade away picks and prospects, so what did you expect Maloney to do?

We simply don't have room on our squad for all the forwards we have accumulated. We can't fill the 4th line with skill guys, they won't see enough time on the ice, let alone get mugged by the opposition. Teams on the verge of becoming playoff contenders do trade prospects from their area of strength to address their area of weakness.

Nashville wasn't in the playoffs in 2014, or 2013, and traded a primo defenseman for a #1C.

I agree that Maloney looked good in his rebuild. 2 years ago I wanted his head, last year somewhat, this year not at all. I jinxed him. I made a public admission that I was wrong about him and then he got axed.
 

XX

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We simply don't have room on our squad for all the forwards we have accumulated.

The Coyotes have accumulated two forwards out of all the ones picked so far. Dvorak, Strome etc... haven't become NHLers yet. No point in trading them now. Trade when you have an actual abundance, not an imagined or projected one.

Nashville wasn't in the playoffs in 2014, or 2013, and traded a primo defenseman for a #1C.

They were able to do that by drafting BPA and then not tanking Seth Jones value. They also traded from an established position of strength (D) to cover up a weakness. The Coyotes haven't established any strengths yet. Check back in a few years.
 

LuckyNumber11

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Jun 10, 2015
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The Coyotes have accumulated two forwards out of all the ones picked so far. Dvorak, Strome etc... haven't become NHLers yet. No point in trading them now. Trade when you have an actual abundance, not an imagined or projected one.

Theoretically couldn't you use that same argument to justify trading them? Trade them now when they have a high value. Not when several of them take their inevitable flop
 

XX

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Theoretically couldn't you use that same argument to justify trading them? Trade them now when they have a high value. Not when several of them take their inevitable flop

Teams bake in the same risk tolerance when valuing them in trade. You're better off sitting on the good prospects, especially. You wouldn't get full value for Dvorak in trade, as an example, if you were trading him for an established player. Paper value and value in actual trade are two different things. The latter involves guys responsible for millions in payroll that are worried about keeping their jobs.

You can sometimes read the market and find a GM that is in love with a player and exploit that, but it's rare. I would actually expect the Coyotes to go on the offensive and actively acquire undervalued junior players that Chayka's tracking company points out, if anything. A hard sell for an impatient coach, though. Back to the power problem.

The Coyotes should be playing the long game. It doesn't make any sense to have a coach that insists upon instant gratification.
 

rt

The Kinder, Gentler Version
May 13, 2004
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I would actually expect the Coyotes to go on the offensive and actively acquire undervalued junior players that Chayka's tracking company points out, if anything. A hard sell for an impatient coach, though. Back to the power problem.

The Coyotes should be playing the long game. It doesn't make any sense to have a coach that insists upon instant gratification.

With the the 7th overall pick, the coyotes are pleased to select, from the Ontario league, defenseman Cam Dineen.
 

Mosby

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In terms of junior guys, I wouldn't mind signing Stephen Harper as an overager. Good player and he'd provide decent center depth in Tucson in the next few years when Dvorak, MacInnis, etc. are in the NHL. Harper previously had camp tryouts with LA and SJ.
 

BUX7PHX

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Jul 7, 2011
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It may be a more operational (business) role, but I think it will also be used to override anything not "Tippett approved" without Tippett having to throw his VP weight around. For example, if it existed last year, it could have been used to overrule Maloney on the "not trade for Dougie Hamilton" decision.

Possible future situation:
  1. Chayka suggests a player to trade for based on analytics
  2. Tippett likes Chayka's suggestion since it agree with his Tippalytics
  3. New AGM handles negotiations but recommends to Chayka that they not pull the trigger since the other team is asking too much
  4. Tippett is fine with overpaying since it is largely picks and prospects involved
  5. Chayka is not willing to overpay since it will affect our prospect pool down the road
  6. Drummond overrules Chayka and orders them to make the trade
  7. Chayka complies

I think that this is a fair statement to make, but let's also be honest - how many times do you think this is going to shake out where Tippett has to overrule a thought by Chayka? I think that you are talking the rarest of extremes here, but I could be wrong.

One element that I did want to have discussions on have been the talks about comparing what the Cardinals do from a management standpoint vs what the Coyotes do from a management standpoint. A lot of people bring up the article where Steve Keim and Bruce Arians are interviewed and the resulting information is:

1. The GM manages
2. The coach coaches

Does anyone really think that any organization puts its leaders in that much of a silo? I think that some posters hear these statements and believe it too much. There is no possible way that a GM and coach don't talk about things. Not doing so would be a disaster. I think that what these statements are actually saying is this:

GM and coach actually meet up to discuss things regarding players. What happened when Andre Ellington went down early? Are we to assume that only Arians went to watch CJ2K work out and Keim just read names off of a list of top RBs available? Or vice-versa? In reality, Arians and Keim probably viewed workouts together and formed a rough basis of who made the most sense. CJ2K was #1 in both of their eyes.

HOWEVER, once Johnson had been signed, Keim is not going to try and influence what he thinks should be done. He is the GM and did his due diligence as GM to sign Johnson (#1). Whether that means he thinks Johnson should get 30 carries, 15 touches, or just 3rd down back work over games is irrelevant. He can't tell Arians what to do with the player. So, he let's Arians coach (#2). They both understand how to separate that aspect.

This is what I would expect to happen any time a situation like this comes up. If someone on the practice squad is doing well and there is no need to sign an outside free agent, then Keim and Arians will come to that conclusion. If Arians or Keim feels that the practice squad player won't bring enough upside, then he lets his feelings be known and it will be evaluated. Same thing likely happened with the year that Palmer went out and the team had to use Ryan Lindley in the playoff game against Carolina. Both probably evaluated what it would be like to grab another QB off the wire. Favre had retired a year earlier, and he would have had about 10 days to learn the system. It was decided to keep Lindley in there. I doubt that was only Keim deciding that the financials wouldn't work or only Arians deciding that 10 days wasn't enough time. They probably both had some hand in that conclusion, but once the business decision was made, that was it.

Maybe there were some business hockey decisions that couldn't be agreed upon, and judging by people wanting to include Tippett's thoughts makes me wonder if Maloney may have even been the one to overstep his boundaries through too much or too little action.
 

Mosby

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Feb 16, 2012
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Some speculation that the Islanders may fire Garth Snow. I'd hope that's a name we're looking at.
 

Summer Rose

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In terms of junior guys, I wouldn't mind signing Stephen Harper as an overager. Good player and he'd provide decent center depth in Tucson in the next few years when Dvorak, MacInnis, etc. are in the NHL. Harper previously had camp tryouts with LA and SJ.

hiXDs3x.jpg
 

cobra427

Registered User
May 6, 2012
9,342
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I think that this is a fair statement to make, but let's also be honest - how many times do you think this is going to shake out where Tippett has to overrule a thought by Chayka? I think that you are talking the rarest of extremes here, but I could be wrong.

One element that I did want to have discussions on have been the talks about comparing what the Cardinals do from a management standpoint vs what the Coyotes do from a management standpoint. A lot of people bring up the article where Steve Keim and Bruce Arians are interviewed and the resulting information is:

1. The GM manages
2. The coach coaches

Does anyone really think that any organization puts its leaders in that much of a silo? I think that some posters hear these statements and believe it too much. There is no possible way that a GM and coach don't talk about things. Not doing so would be a disaster. I think that what these statements are actually saying is this:

GM and coach actually meet up to discuss things regarding players. What happened when Andre Ellington went down early? Are we to assume that only Arians went to watch CJ2K work out and Keim just read names off of a list of top RBs available? Or vice-versa? In reality, Arians and Keim probably viewed workouts together and formed a rough basis of who made the most sense. CJ2K was #1 in both of their eyes.

HOWEVER, once Johnson had been signed, Keim is not going to try and influence what he thinks should be done. He is the GM and did his due diligence as GM to sign Johnson (#1). Whether that means he thinks Johnson should get 30 carries, 15 touches, or just 3rd down back work over games is irrelevant. He can't tell Arians what to do with the player. So, he let's Arians coach (#2). They both understand how to separate that aspect.

This is what I would expect to happen any time a situation like this comes up. If someone on the practice squad is doing well and there is no need to sign an outside free agent, then Keim and Arians will come to that conclusion. If Arians or Keim feels that the practice squad player won't bring enough upside, then he lets his feelings be known and it will be evaluated. Same thing likely happened with the year that Palmer went out and the team had to use Ryan Lindley in the playoff game against Carolina. Both probably evaluated what it would be like to grab another QB off the wire. Favre had retired a year earlier, and he would have had about 10 days to learn the system. It was decided to keep Lindley in there. I doubt that was only Keim deciding that the financials wouldn't work or only Arians deciding that 10 days wasn't enough time. They probably both had some hand in that conclusion, but once the business decision was made, that was it.

Maybe there were some business hockey decisions that couldn't be agreed upon, and judging by people wanting to include Tippett's thoughts makes me wonder if Maloney may have even been the one to overstep his boundaries through too much or too little action.

Nice post. I am sure at times, and initially, Tip and Chayka will not be on the same page when it comes to personnel evaluation or how to improve the roster. In any working relationship like this, both sides or all parties need to keep talking it through to come up with a consensus. As long as everyone is open minded, and see's value in other parties opinions, a decision can be made which everyone agrees with at the end of the day. This is about discussing options, and looking at the pro's and con's of adding and/or subtracting any players from the roster.

I am sure this is the way the Cardinals approach decisions. Coaches don't negotiate contracts and GM's don't dictate playing time, but they collaborate on specific personnel and what options are available to come up with a decision. This might work well, time will tell.
 

_Del_

Registered User
Jul 4, 2003
15,426
6,738
Nice post. I am sure at times, and initially, Tip and Chayka will not be on the same page when it comes to personnel evaluation or how to improve the roster. In any working relationship like this, both sides or all parties need to keep talking it through to come up with a consensus. As long as everyone is open minded, and see's everyone agrees with at the end of the day.

This really isn't how healthy large orgs operate. It might be an ideal, but there is always a decision maker because there are always camps and deadlock. In this case the decision maker is GMDT. They've already admitted it.
But carry on selling us all tickets to Shangri La. Everybody has to make a living somehow.
 

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